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Pokémon Why do people say "sorry" after getting lucky?

Discussion in 'Chat' started by GGFan, Sep 1, 2016.

  1. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Perhaps the most bizarre ritual in competitive Pokemon is to say sorry after getting lucky. Honestly, I find nothing more annoying and condescending than somebody TRYING to get lucky, succeeding, and subsequently apologizing as if he offended me. Actually, what offends me is you saying "so sry bro" after connecting with that lucky Dynamic Punch that you NEEDED to connect and getting the confusion that you NEEDED to get in order to keep your chances of winning alive.

    Pokemon, like other games, is one that I play to win; therefore, I obviously want to get lucky every time. I want to freeze all of your Pokemon. I want your Chansey to get fully paralyzed while my Zapdos gets nothing but crit Drill Pecks. I want your DDTar and Aerodactyl to miss those game-winning Rock Slides. I want my DDTar to power through your Swampert, Suicune, AND Skarmory with flinch hax. I will not apologize when I win because of hax because that would be tantamount to saying I wasn't playing without hoping to get lucky, which is bull shit. Stop bullshitting other people with "oh man sry for that." You're not sorry. You want to win, otherwise you wouldn't be here now.

    Eight years ago or so, back when I was a regular in the German circuit, one of the big-name tournament players (I think it was either Binabik or Majin Tupac Z) scolded me during one of my tournament matches for never apologizing after I got lucky, to which I, of course, responded: "If you don't want to get lucky, use six Magikarps and nothing but Splash. That will solve all of your problems." They stopped criticizing me after that.

    Here's another thing people need to understand about this game: nobody cares how you win, only if you won. The only thing people will remember after your big game is who won and who lost. YOU might remember all of the details, but going on a crusade to convince people that all of your losses were only due to RNG will make you come across as nothing more than a petty sore loser. It doesn't matter if you win or lose because of hax, as it's been accepted that hax is as much a part of the game as are your teambuilding and skills. So, just go out there and try to win, and--for the love of God--don't say "sorry" if you get lucky while doing so because that just makes you a liar.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
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  2. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    I think people get annoyed with hax especially when it appears to be the suboptimal strategy.
     
  3. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Playing for hax is a perfectly acceptable option, especially if it's the only viable one. At any rate, if someone has an aversion to it, they can simply not try to get lucky and lose. That's fine by me.
     
  4. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    RNG (call it hax?) is part of the game. If people cannot accept that they are playing the wrong game (and in case of RBY definitely the wrong generation of the gmae too). I personally never apologize if I get good RNG neither in battle nor afterwards in the forum, neither do I complain about bad RNG or expect my opponent to apologize (Edit: or worse take anything away from my opponent by saying that I got "haxed" in the forum after the battle).
    General advice to everyone: Stop wasting your energy on complaining about the freeze your opponent just got and rather put it into your thought process on how to figure out a way to maximize your potential to win from that situation. ;)
     
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  5. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I agree a lot with what you say, but I might not just be as "extreme".

    I actually tend to say sorry when I hax in like friendly tours (like the 3U tour that is currently happening) or in testing games because it can be annoying since it sorta ruins games where there's nothing or not much on the line. It's not really a "I'm personally sorry" but more of a "Sorry that this situation is happening, even though we both can't do anything about it".

    Otherwise I completely agree with you when it comes to tours you take seriously, it tends to annoy me a lot when someone is saying "sorry" because:

    1) It's part of the game, if you want to win "cleanly" (which doesn't mean much in rby anyway) then go play chess
    2) If you're missplaying every turn and still win because of rng then what's sorry supposed to mean ? "You're better than me therefore I shouldn't be winning" ? Then why are you even playing
    3) Saying sorry when you clearly MEAN to hax (as you said) by spamming ice moves or playing for crits is just really not appropriate. Nothing wrong with spamming ice moves, just be honest with yourself lol.
    4) You're lying

    That being said I prefer seeing someone saying "sorry about the luck" than someone bitching about the luck, that triggers me just so much. As you said just post "lost ggs". Saying "I lost he rng'd me hard" is I think useless and disrespectful, don't try to give a justification it's not interesting there's litterally no one who cares. Sometimes you win thanks to luck too and you don't cry about it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  6. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    From common to rare:
    a) habit - saying "gg" is not that better, depending on context
    b) mockery
    c) making everyone else knowing you're getting more than you deserve - would make sense saying it only when you call it "relevant, unlikely to happen luck", assuming you know the game.

    Everybody follows his own terrible personal beliefs in this fiction. There are many different layers of "terrible", but no matter what you do, somebody is going to complain about both "gg" and "sry" matters.
    Are they saying "sorry"? Nothing you can do about it, let them do - at the end of the day most of the times you won't be able to tell whether they're belonging to the C scenario or not (that of course doesn't mean they'll forfeit the game because they lucked you).

    No, I don't feel at all. That's the point of view that my 10-year old neighbour who never played the game could have (or any given random fan, for that matter); if that's all you can bring to a discussion that's on you, and I mean that it doesn't make you a trusty narrator/analyst.


    On a separate note, I think reporting cases of luck on the bracket thread is fine- what really annoys is people failing to be fair (incompetence or egoism, choose which you prefer).
    But again, at the end of the day it's up to you to tell who is reasonably accurate and who's just a big crybaby...
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
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  7. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Eh, to me saying sorry after getting lucky is like saying sorry at a funeral or something - you're sorry for what happened to the other person but you know it is (at least technically) completely not your fault (even if you try and go for hax the final verdict belongs to the rng gods). While apologizing for like spamming ice moves to get a freeze is wrong (cause that makes you a liar), apologizing for the freeze actually happening, or a crit, or a Thunder para that you weren't expecting to get is ok, since it's just your condolences that it happened. Come to think of it, 'my condolences' would probably be better to say after haxing...
     
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  8. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    A) I would never say "gg" after it became obvious I won because of RNG. If my opponent did it, I would interpret it as him/her being kind of a snide troll, but it's the internet so I would shrug it off.
    B) I think in 95-99% of cases the person isn't trying to mock the other. They just don't realize how condescending they sound by saying it.
    C) I believe it usually IS a case of the person trying to uphold some imaginary sense of Pokemon chivalry. It actually accomplishes an opposite effect, however.

    No, I don't feel at all. That's the point of view that my 10-year old neighbour who never played the game could have (or any given random fan, for that matter); if that's all you can bring to a discussion that's on you, and I mean that it doesn't make you a trusty narrator/analyst.

    When people interview other players, write up a break down of a tournament, laud the achievements of others, I've NEVER seen them say, something, like, "Well, you only won that tournament because your opponent's Raikou's Thunder missed" or "That was a nice freeze you got in game 5, eh?" So no, I don't think that's the perception of a 10-year-old who never played Pokemon; rather anybody who has at least a rudimentary knowledge of the game accepts the fact that hax plays an integral part of it. Nobody cares how you won or lost.

    On a separate note, I think reporting cases of luck on the bracket thread is fine- what really annoys is people failing to be fair (incompetence or egoism, choose which you prefer).
    But again, at the end of the day it's up to you to tell who is reasonably accurate and who's just a big crybaby...


    I don't mind it either, actually. What I dislike is when people exaggerate it or use their bad luck as an opportunity to put down other players. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.
     
  9. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    I totally disagree with this. If you want to be exempt from any blame in a Pokemon game, the only way to do that is by either playing really badly on purpose or by using incredibly bad teams that have no chance of winning. Otherwise, it is "your fault" because you're trying to win.
     
  10. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I feel like saying "gg" isn't about saying litterally "this game was good/interesting/fun/whatever" but more like the internet handshake. Even if it was a one way game because of rng or what i'll always say gg just like i would always shake my opponent's hand irl if I played a game or sports with him, but that's up to one's interpretation i guess
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think what I'd want to say is mostly already said by marco / peas. Whether you win by hax or not matters to a small degree in reputational terms but ultimately 1: it's the win that counts 2: it's the game we play. I say sorry out of habit quite a bit, during friendlies and sometimes during tournaments (but I don't think I put as much stock into tours as most people do). gg is mostly a matter of etiquette at this point too as Peas said. If someone says bg etc. then that's considered rude in 99% of cases; you can be more emphatic about how good of a game it was if it really was a very good game but I'd say that saying gg is a part of the etiquette that shows respect for your opponent whether you won or lost.
     
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  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Yeah, gg could be used as something like "I've got nothing left to say, I'm going to close the window" too...
    but again it's all about the context: the other opponent being friend or not, knowing you etc... every single policy is stupid (on infinite different levels) out of context.

    It's up to the reader to realize that this kind of interview is kinda frivoulous (or trivial, or w/e), meaning it's about a story line (at least it's not all about one single lucky run) and an interviewer going into depth about one characther, emotions etc. It's not technical, and it's your choice to rank players in a technical way or in a "fan's" way.
    When I'm analysing, or making decision as Team Italy's captain/member, I definitely go for the former.
     
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  13. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados Host Emeritus

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    "Sorry" (in real life) generally can mean one of two things when you say it - an apology, or an expression of sympathy/empathy. You're right that when you say sorry as an apology in a game it's super weird because of course you're playing to win on purpose. But ThrashNinjax's point is that when he (and I think most of us) says sorry here, like when you say sorry at a funeral, you're using the sympathy/empathy version. Nothing wrong with being empathetic to your opponent when they're getting a rough game. You're not saying "I'm sorry I did that to you," you're saying "I'm sorry that happened to you." You're saying, "I've been there - when I played all the right moves but lost anyway, and it stings. I relate to what you must be feeling and want to convey that empathy." You're just saying it a lot more succinctly than that :)

    Like saying "gg" even if it wasn't a good game, it's - as Peasounay said - like a handshake. It's etiquette. It's two Little League teams lining up and giving each other high fives after a game regardless of who lost.

    But I agree with you GGFan - if someone says "sorry" in those situations where they were clearly playing for hax - spamming ice moves, using parafusion - it's like, "dude, don't even." Tone, context, and delivery matters. But if they say something that reads more like, "Haha wow I know I'm playing for hax and I know you're outplaying me but I'm winning anyway, sorry that's happening to you" I view it more as the opponent reaching out to me, player-to-player, and that's kinda nice.
     
  14. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    I kind of disagree with this, like others have pointed out usually sorry is meant as more of a sorry that happened deal. Any competent player at this game knows there is no control over luck, and there should be no blame on luck that happens. That doesn't mean you can't express your sympathies to the other person because it's frustrating and as golden gyarados said we've all been there, we all know how it feels. I think even in cases where you were specifically trying for luck it's ok. When you go in to the game just trying for hax then obviously that's not ok, but let's say you're in a major tournament and you realize your best shot to win is to go for a freeze/miss/whatever. Will it suck for the opponent if you succeed? Yes. Should you still go for it? Absolutely! We're all playing to win, and doing anything less is boring. However, that doesn't mean it's any less frustrating for your opponent and that you aren't allowed to express your sympathies for it, reach out to them as a human being and let them know, you've been there. Over the internet it can be hard to tell if someone is condescending or not and there are definitely cases where people say sorry in a condescending way. If there isn't enough context though I generally like to give people the benefit of the doubt because the vast majority of people are just trying to be nice and you gain nothing from assuming otherwise.
     
  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    It's an interesting topic for sure. Generally I'm with other people in not really apologising for hax, especially if I'm playing for it or it's an isolated incident, even if it's a pivotal one. Personally I don't really care if other people apologise for it. After all, it's part of the game and generally outside our control, so there's little point in making a fuss over. The only circumstance in which I might apologise is if I get an overwhelming amount of RNG in my favour, such that my opponent never really got a chance or got screwed out of a winning position or whatever. In that case it's less that I'm sorry and more just an acknowledgement that the game was an RNG shitfest and that there's no basis for saying the winner was the better player. I guess as Peasounay says, saying "sorry" specifically is terribly insincere, but I think it's polite to acknowledge that the RNG is enormously one sided and that just happens to be the way that normally takes place.

    I'm probably not the best person to comment on saying gg at the end of a battle though, since I'm really inconsistent about it
     
  16. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    In italy we didn't say "sorry".

    we say:" PORCO DIO"

    xd
     
  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I don't say "sorry" when I play for a low-probability event and it happens (and indeed if someone says "hax" I'll call them out). I mean, if I fire ten Ice Beams and one of them freezes, that's not hax at all. That's expected.

    But if someone outplays me and it's nullified due to highly unlikely events (e.g. they Explode, I mispredict and don't switch to my Normal resist/fodder, "But, it missed!"), then I might apologise.

    I try to avoid saying "gg" when I win. It's arrogant.
     
  18. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Just to keep a good rapport with your opponent, out of respect. There's luck and there's luck; if someone awkwardly leaves a monolax in against a gengar just to stall and you freeze it after firing off 20 ice punches obviously you're not gonna apologize. If you take down the one poke holding their entire game together with a crit at a freak moment, then yeah; sorry man I recognize that was some stinky hax, sorry I won because of 1 lucky crit, i would have rather had a clean fight.
     
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  19. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

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    I'm actually guilty of this (esspecially in RBY and GSC). I don't know, I think its because I kinda feel bad for my opponent. Though I understand your point completely. (Sorry for my inactivity lately)
     
  20. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer officially retired from bo1 rby Member

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    People say sorry for hax because others blame them for hax, or get mad when they get haxed. Both are concepts I don't really understand, yet I think we have all been in both situations. At this point whenever I say sorry it's just out of a social convention or anything. Yes I am not sorry, or if I am there is no reason that I should be sorry. There is no reason that the other player should be mad though. But that's just in a perfect world and we all know the reality just happens to be different from time to time. I never really thought about this too much because I don't think there is any deep meaning hidden in there other than people trying to be polite.
     
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