Pokémon Who was the best in gen 1?

In gen 2, everyone knows that a player named Celia was regarded as the best in the game’s most popular era.

When gen 1 was at the height of its popularity, who was considered the best?

 

What does "popular" mean in this context? The era which saw the greatest abundance of tournaments? The time in which the playerbase was flourishing? The days when RBY and GSC were the only extent gens? Perhaps if you could be more specific, people could give you a concrete answer. Celia might be considered the best when looked at with one particular set of lens, but another would give you an entirely different perspective.

As for RBY, I prefer breaking it down into several distinct periods and analyzing it that way--the game has transformed considerably since its antiquated and broken beginnings. For the sake of brevity (moreso because I write this message under the exigencies of time), I would say the greatest players of each era would be...

The Azureheights era (2000-2005): GGFan
The Renaissance (2006-2010): GGFan
The Dark Ages (2011-2012): Crystal
The Revival (2013-2014): GGFan
The dawn of Pokémon Perfect (2014-2017): marcoasd, Alexander, Peasounay
RBY Globalization (2018-???): roudolf, Troller

 

I like what you did here with the time periods. I don't really like the way that you try to make "the best" sound subjective though. I understand that there could be arguments made about whether which of the top 3 players of any given time period were the best (because their consistency in winning might be a little close to call), but who the tip top players are shouldn't be disputed in a competitive game where we can measure who the best players are by consistency in winning. Consistency in winning is the measurement I'm using, are you using the same measurement in your analysis of these time periods?

 

It is subjective because, as I said before, not everybody will judge a player using the same exact criteria. You say you use consistency as your measuring stick, but consistency based on what? How many tournaments did Celia win? What was his winning percentage? How long did he play? How developed was the playerbase back then compared to now? How do his achievements stack up against the achievements of those who succeeded him? You have to factor in all of these questions and more, I believe, if you truly want a solid answer as opposed to a vague one.

Another question comes into mind here: how educated are you on the history of competitive GSC, really? I don't ask this to insult you or doubt your knowledge; rather, I would appreciate it if you could expound on your reasoning as to why Celia is the greatest GSC player of all time. It would be interesting to learn more, as this is a lofty statement to make, I think. I can only provide detailed historical analysis on the RBY side, sadly.

 

Yes this is all about rby. I'm only educated about celia through old posts, and older players talking about him. I can say just from seeing his signature team, if i had no other information about him except what his signature build was, just by that team I'd already put him above most players. James g says he was the best there was and i trust him, there are also old posts on game faqs calling him the "stall god" . And Borat has said in the past that "stall lets worst players win" and "celia isn't that good" "if i had a time machine, i'd go back to gsc's prime and be the best" and if i put two and two together it seems to me that borat was also one of his victims, and borat wasn't happy about it. I also watched him play james g with a solo ice team and that was extremely impressive to say the least (and james g won a master tournament not too far back, to answer your question about how'd he stack up against the competition today). And this is coming from a spectator who was one of the best gsc players for a while. All of these little pieces of evidence, along with all the information james g has told me, points to the conclusion that he really was the best of that era. Best as in he destroyed everyone.

I just wanted to know if there was a celia like character, or maybe two or three of them, who just destroyed everyone when the population of rby players was at its height.

 

I think over the last five years we've seen quite a few (destroy is a strong word, but every year there's been one player who stood out amongst the rest): me (2013), marcoasd (2014), Alexander (late 2015-2016), Peasounay (2017), roudolf (2018). If you want overall most dominant over the last five years (since the birth of Pokémon Perfect), it's marcoasd, easily. If you want greatest of all time (from the game's beginnings on the PBS/World Championship to now), I imagine you'd get varying answers depending on who you ask, though the amount of people who could give you an educated opinion are few and far between. I'm probably the only one who survived antiquity that was never isolated from the collective, competitive scene.

One important thing to keep in mind that is that RBY has changed vastly from when it was played 18 years ago. It's practically a different game now, which is partially why I divide the greatest of all time into specific time periods.

 

A game is more popular right after its release but the playerbase and the tournament scene may reach its best at any given point later - just take a look at TETRIS.
Don't forget that in 1998 internet wasn't quite as popular as it is today, then other generations came out.

GGFan's list looks accurate (also, I remember a time when I considered Crystal_ to be the best), but maybe it overlooks what happened on other communities (mostly Smogon) at the same time, and sometimes players playing on different communities just don't meet or don't meet often enough.
About GSC, I think that Earthworm might be the best player for that tier among those who I've seen (don't know Celia, I would keep an eye on Lavos going forward). On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily mean that he got there on his own - other players might've been more influential shaping the metagame and I just missed that.
I don't think "best player" is objective at all: sometimes even results are not, let alone something that depends on the criteria you're using and the time frame you happen to be active. The two best players might end up not meeting each others.

 

In the context of PP, unlike all of these other places, we keep data on all of our major tournaments in one centralised place, our spreadsheet. Feel free to pore over the data here; there are many conclusions you can draw from it, depending on how you look at things, and in some ways, data is not a substitute for expert opinion.

 

I remember when I got into pokemon people always told me Earthworm was the single greatest player of all time and I'm sure he plays GSC mainly right? I've not looked much into my history so I'm prob wrong tho. (GGFan book 2 soon please)

 

Back in the early 2000s, there were only actually 5 Pokemon players in total - Chaos, VIL, Posho, Foggi, and littlelucario. As such, they regularly hosted small tours amongst themselves in RBY OU, which was just 'OU' at the time. The games would typically go on for hours and end in stalemates, until the arrival of a new player onto the tournament scene, GTM. He would bring in innovations such as switching and the use of Toxapex, and also became the first player to successfully perform a critical hit in Pokemon history. His reign of total dominance would last for years until the introduction of GSC, and the founding of Smogon by up-and-comer CALLOUS. GTM is considered the pound-for-pound best of all time almost unanimously by today's Pokemon playerbase.

 

old tales passed on by extremly wise pokemon ancestors tell that user Floppy invented the strategic movement known nowadays as the double switch, effectively revolutionizing the way this game has been played ever since. this historic benchmark compels me to show my support towards said user in this thread, for he is an inspiration to all of us rookies

 

earthworm first earned his "greatest ever" title by being (almost) inarguably the most elite player in dpp when it was the main gen, and continued to maintain it with extensive success during bw1, especially the first leg. he became known for his gsc afterwards. he had some big wins in adv too though. look through old spls if you'd like confirmation.

 

While GTM is undoubtedly in contention for one of the best players during the RBY Era, I think Triangles’ impulsive conclusion dismisses the prowess of another notable candidate, Bushtush.

While I concur that the first successful critical hit documented in Pokemon history was achieved by GTM back in 2001, we mustn’t forget Bushtush’s accomplishments that have also echoed throughout the decades. From pioneering iconic move sets such as 4 attack Tauros to Thunder Wave Blissey, to developing strategies outside of the Poke-field such as verbal assaults and physical intimidation to daunt his opponent, his legacy will be forever embedded into the history of the sport. While his strategies aren’t always ethical (as evident from the numerous lawsuits filed against him), we mustn’t relinquish his long list of contributions. If I recall correctly, Bushtush soon retired from RBY after being (the first Indian-Canadian) inducted into the Pokemon Hall of fame due to medical injuries.

To this day, Bushtush still remains one of the most fearsome players, although he has transitioned into sun and moon UU. It is in my opinion that had he not suffered from a rare illness known as ‘blackus africanus hyperpigmentation' and subsequent hospitalization for the latter half of the 2000’s, he would undeniably be one of the most celebrated athletes in RBY history.

 

This statement is pure personal speculation coming from you, not everyone's. As someone who has played the game as early as 2004 when RSE386 was main gen in Netbattle, I reassure you Celia wasnt the best in the game as you state. The only "legacy" he left behind is THAT one team, which by all means isnt perfect nor 350IQ but an attempt of hard stalling in an era were curselax was mostly banned and frowned upon, probably even before the release of NYC pokemon event moves. And by the way the forums you've searched to find topics(Aeturnus Societus) regarding that team were mine; a collaboration of all the netbattle clans united. The teams we posted there (iirc the celia team was posted by ViL or imperfectluck) came solely from us trying to spice interest up by passing down 'unused' or cool stuff that werent really usable or for archive pursposes to have older gen sub categories 'filled'. There are actually GSC forums still up from the GS Bots era, were in a hundreds of pages Celia's name is never mentioned as best nor hailed as top dog not even once. I'd advice you to search more and get a truer grasp of this gen if you really want to delve into such (probably meaningless) discussions. To my knowledge, nor ViL(did you know about his unbeatable celebi team?), nor Celia, nor bob(insane raikou encore team), names you might hear today were the best of GSC back then but are the players that transitioned better from the GS Bots to Netbattle before gen 3 became main. (eg GSC celebi was unbanned for a while in Netbattle iirc, thus ViL's celebi team).

As a bonus for tolerating my rant, as I have never been involved in the RBY scene to answer the OP question;

About ADV, back when it was current gen among the best players were goofball, Loki, Veteran in Love and last but not least, my personal favorite, biggest rival and a great friend of mine, Husk. He rarely lost, and played incredibly wellmade semi stalls based around Zapdos, with intelligent EV'ing and incredible predictions even when playing casually or friendlies. His style was a direct opposite of mine (which was versatile mons with aggression to keep tempo control). Honorable mentions to Giga Punch and imperfectluck(council / kd8 otome) too. Needless to say, Netbattle's ADV was vastly different than the ADV you came to know now, because of Sleep Talk mechanics. Most of you never came to know the terror of Restalk Zapdos and other prehistoric beasts such as Restalk BulkyMetagross, Restalk Regice, Dusclops and so on.

About DPP, on Shoddy and early DPP (Garchomp era, Salamence era) the absolutely phenomenal players on the ladder and tournaments were panamaxis, Aldaron and earthworm(who knocked me off 1-0 by getting a 50-50 tie in smogon official 4, the last tournamentI participated on Smogon before retiring).

 

the skill level got way higher in just the last few years alone. i was able to go insanely deep in RBY tours when i barely knew what i was doing and used a jynx lead team for every single game. anything pre SPL 7 should be considered pointless because it was like children playing a guessing game nonstop.

that said marco, peas and alex are the clear best.

 

RBY was far from a guessing game in periods preceding your arbitrary measuring stick of SPL 7. Many tournament games from the Azureheights and Netbattle eras were decided largely by who had more experience, as there was a dearth of resources compared to what we have now. Take Hipmonlee for example. He was considered one of the best players of the Azureheights era for a good reason: he played the game religiously and thus knew more than most people. The only reason I was able to compete with him was because I played practically every day, read logs, picked peoples' brains on AIM to learn more, and spectated games whenever possible. I had to be incredibly active to compete with the likes of him, otherwise I would have lost every single time we played. Is it really a surprise that Hipmonlee is still considered competent to this day? Even though the metagame was vastly different to what it's become, the foundation that he (and I) gained still stands strong to this day.

These days we have hundreds if not thousands of replays available on Pokemon Showdown. Players are also far more accessible than they were a decade ago thanks to the proliferation of social media, such as Skype and especially Discord. It's easy to establish a network of people you know and trust. After you finish your test games, you can watch dozens of replays to your heart's content. When I started playing, most games weren't saved due to the imperfect programming of the PBS, and the logs themselves usually weren't preserved, either. If someone played more than you, chances are you were at a huge disadvantage.

What really mitigated the impact of experience was the Pokemon Online ladder. For the first time in RBY's history it was easy to play several games in a day, whereas in the Azureheights era you'd be lucky to get one or two full games in (sometimes games would end abruptly due to, once again, the PBS's numerous glitches). Moreover, there was now a concrete goal for the remnants of the playerbase to strive for, a playerbase which was nearly extinct from the dark ages of RBY2K10. Once the ladder was popular, Pokemon Perfect followed, and now there was a productive tournament scene for the first time in a decade.

I also dispute your claim that "marco, peas, and alex" are the best. "The best" is very subjective, as there are numerous ways to measure one's success. Marco's reputation stems largely for the string of Master Tournaments he won in 2014. He's been very successful since then, but every year we've seen at least one more player accomplish more than him. Peasounay dominated last year but has shown to be far from invincible this year, which is due more to how developed the playerbase is. As for Alexander, he hasn't been as consistent in the tier as the likes of myself, Marco, Peasounay, Lusch, Troller, etc. I think it's better to classify players into tiers, as there's only so much you can do in the game itself. After all, we're now at a stage in RBY's history (the stage I call "globalization") that even inexperienced players can beat the game's titans, which is due not solely because of tier's simplistic structure, but also because we're in the information age now.

Besides, this year the current "best" tier consists of Roudolf, Lusch, and Troller. I'd put Marco in there, but below all three of the aforementioned players.

P.S. Can we please delete the autistic and terribly unfunny messages that only "made for Smogon" people would find humorous? I don't think this interesting thread deserves to be derailed by such an obscene amount of teenage-esque cringe. Thank you.

 

nah dude you can just watch the old guys play, they're generally pretty bad (esp in the era before floppy invented the double switch.) any new gen RBY guy would easily go like 8-1 in any spl prior to 2015. top 3 rn (and all time) = peas, marco, alex

 

Writing in a lazy and vague manner doesn't make you sound more convincing, nor does it prove anything you're saying. First, I have no idea what you're trying to say in the first sentence. As for current gen OU players, that doesn't dispute the point I'm making that the reason they would succeed is because we're now in an age replete with valuable resources such as replays and social networks. If anything, it demonstrates that--of course a top player in a different tier can succeed in RBY. Nobody is saying they can't, but it would be much harder to do so in the game's beginnings because experience doesn't mean as much as it used to. Even somebody who has never played the game before can quickly excel in a highly competitive environment.

How do you know how good players from the past were? Since you're from Smogon you might just be trolling, but all I'll say is that many people who started playing before you were born have proven to be successful a decade--or even more--after they started playing. There's not much that needs to be said, really. Maybe they don't play much anymore because they feel they have little else to prove or no time to do so, as age is certainly a factor despite our game being a battle of minds as opposed to muscles. Also, I didn't know RBY was a dead tier, or that BW NU is played in team tournaments; thank you for the enlightenment. As for prestige, there's plenty of prestige to gain from playing a tier for several years and winning hundreds of tournament games, regardless the petty criticisms from you and the people in your esoteric circle. It takes a lot of skill to win at RBY all year round, which is something only a few people can claim.

There's no connection between me refuting your claim that RBY was a "guessing game" in previous eras by saying it was actually the period when experience mattered the most and your WCOP record. I don't know what you want me to say. Anybody who can play Pokemon competently in a different tier can easily do so in RBY in one tour--we all know this and openly admit it. Caetano93, a random name, beat Lusch and Peasounay in WCOPP. I went 1-2 in WCOP against an overall weaker playerbase but 3-0 in WCOPP against a stronger one. Therefore, consistency is a more valid measure of success, and if you only care about SPL (which, honestly, most serious RBY players see as a feather in their cap, but not the cap itself), then you're just deluding yourself. I've played in SPL and practically every serious tournament in PP. I won a season on PP, which required more than 30 wins. I only had to win 12 games in SPL to finish with a positive win/loss record, and in that season I played Peasounay, Metalgross, Idiot Ninja, Disaster Area, Ortheore, etc. In SPL I mostly played the same players that I always play on PP. If you can be successful on PP, then you're likely going to succeed on Smogon, which has been proven by roudolf, Peasounay, marco, etc.

Motivation is subjective. You can't speak for everyone, only yourself and what people have told you. I took WCOPP just as seriously as SPL, just as I took POCL seriously. I try to win all of my games no matter what tournament it is. But based on SPL alone, why would you put Marco in the top 3 anyway? He's more well known for his myriad of accomplishments on PP. Tiba has had better peformances than marco, but no knowledgeable RBY player will put him in their top 3 or even top 10 because he's not consistent. Same goes for Alex and Peasounay. Roudolf, Lusch, and Troller are at the top right now--even I have to admit that.

What you DID say that piqued my interest was arguing that you would dominate if you played alongside me in antiquity. Sure, if you traveled back in time with the same knowledge that you have now. You have many tournament games under your belt and have played the tier has to offer; however, what if you were just starting out? Now, keep in mind you don't have instant access to replays, it would be harder to connect with people, there are no analyses to be found, and so on. You still could be successful, but you'd probably have to play the game a lot more and would need to make more of an effort because the more experienced players would have far more of an advantage over you. I'm not even saying this era was better, actually. Just look at my win percentage from 2006-2010, which is absolutely insane (I would say I won 90% of my games). This was largely because I had a lot more experience than most of my opponents, and even when I played people who were on my level, I knew the game well enough and was battle tested enough to make the better plays and throw people off.

P.S. I invented the double switch in 2003, a year after I invented switching Ground types into Thunder Wave, and two years after I invented using a team of six Pokémon as opposed to two or three.

 

well I mean, what teal is saying isn't really arguable

marco/peas were really, really dominant until the rest of the field stepped it up and now they're not as dominant. this is just literally what happened, backed up by stats and records and anything you want. tiba was also up there. i'm sure that historically the pool had been even more dogshit in the past and there had been some insane performances by the 'everyone is dogshit' standard, such as the 90% winrate you claim, but peas/marco achieved similar dominance and did it more recently which automatically makes it more impressive - you bring up access to resources, which is a good thing to bring up and consider, but fail to acknowledge that those players were at the peak for years and no one managed to find ways to counter their styles until very recently, either because no one cared to use the resources or because they didn't know how to

his "top 3 rn = marco alex peas" is an opinion that is highly debatable, but the fact that they elevated the level of RBY before the rest of the playerbase was anywhere close to catching up is not debatable at all, especially for marco and peas

 

"what teal is saying isn't really arguable"

"this is an opinion that is highly debatable"

Choose one. Also, it seems I've struck a chord with the Smodrones, resulting in the usual anti-PP sentiments, but I suppose this was inevitable given that I don't base my opinions solely off one tournament or highly delusional arguments such as how everybody else was terrible when these three had their best years. Marco had to play for an entire year before he started winning, which clearly indicates how exaggerated this claim that the playerbase was undeveloped and that he was the impetus behind this imaginary "revolution." In fact, the playerbase in 2013 was highly competitive, consisting of names such of myself, Lutra, M Dragon, Crystal, Velli, and others that I'm neglecting to mention. It took Marco almost a year to win just one tournament set; nobody is discrediting what he accomplished in the following year, but it was actually the quality of the playerbase that resulted in him winning more. While he may have influenced his countrymen, many others were fueled by their own desires as well. Furthermore, regional influence is an expected result of greatness; for example, I presume Peasounay has influenced some French players to play RBY more, just as I influenced German players to pay more attention to the tier when I played there actively.

I don't know about this "dogshit standard" that you kids have this vehement disgust about, but all I know is that I come from antiquity yet I'm still considered one of the greatest ever, have won more tournament matches on PP than everybody except one person, and played alongside legends of the game who are still talked about today. Just because I was great doesn't mean others were bad. Hipmonlee started playing before I did yet still manages to drag his ancient body to victory. Nitro played in GSC tours on PP for a year and was considerably dominant. Kevin Garrett was great in SPL. Picollo had his run in the RBY GC. You shouldn't detest your elders, but rather learn from them and see what made them successful in the first place.

Peasounay went through the same growing pains that Marco did, though he was actually more successful as he at least managed to win sets once in a while before his big year last year. However, to claim he's one of the three greatest ever because of one big year is simply a laughable and untenable argument. One doesn't need to look further at Roudolf to understand why, who accomplished everything Peasounay has this year and more, as he has also managed to win a season, something that eluded Peasounay during his big year. Before his run, Roudolf played on the ladder daily and wasn't even involved in the tournament until the middle of last year. Troller, who was one of the top three or four players last year, started playing RBY before Peasounay did. Myself, who was in the same category...well, I needn't say more. Nobody's motivation or desire to win would have flagged if he didn't exist. Also, no matter how good of a year you have, somebody will always do better in the future. Consistency is the true measure of success. Peasounay has been solid this year, but there are four or maybe five players I would rank over him.

Alexander had an amazing year, but has played sporadically since then. Given how competitive PP has been since its establishment, there is no logical defense to claiming he reinvigorated everybody to do better. After a dominant 2016 he was practically nonexistent in 2017, which was maybe the most competitive year in PP history, a year led by players who started playing around the same time or even before he did.

I'm fine with putting Marco in GOAT category as he's been playing for half a decade and has over 500 tournament wins under his belt. He's the only player besides myself who has a realistic chance of winning 1000 games, which is saying something when you consider that I started playing over a decade before he did. Even if he slows down or even stops entirely, he already has a legacy, but due to the competitive nature of this tier and the vast amount of resources available at players' disposal, it can be surpassed.

No stats or records support this ridiculous claim that Marco, Peasounay, and Alexander are the triumvirate of inspiration (Smogon trolling can be abstract indeed). Stats and records are unbiased and show only one thing: who has won the most per year. Over the last five years the best players have been me (2013), marco (2014), Mister Tim (2015), Alexander (2016), Peasounay (2017), and Roudolf (2018). Any arguments about who influenced who (and, honestly, if you want to argue who the greatest ever is based on influence, I can make a claim to that) are superficial and irrelevant.