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WIP Victreebel

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by Mantishuffle, Jun 2, 2012.

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  1. Mantishuffle

    Mantishuffle Just another gen wunner. Member

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    Victreebel

    [TABLE="class: grid, width: 1400"]

    [TD="align: center"]Sprite[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Name
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Pokedex No.[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Type 1
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Type 2
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](Base) HP[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](Base) Attack[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](Base) Defense
    [*HP]
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](Base) Special
    [*HP][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](Base) Speed[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Critical Hit Ratio
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4x Weak[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2x Weak [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Neutral[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2x Resistance[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4x Resistance[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Immunity[/TD]

    [TD="align: center"][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Victreebel[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]071[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Grass[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Poison[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](80)
    363[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](105)
    308[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](65)
    228
    [82764][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](100)
    298
    [108174][/TD]
    [TD="align: center"](70)
    238[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]13.67%
    [/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Bug[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Fire, Flying, Ice, Psychic[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Dragon, Ghost, Ground, Normal, Poison, Rock[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Electric, Fighting, Water[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]Grass[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]N/A[/TD]
    [/TABLE]

    Movepool

    Acid, Bide, Body Slam, Cut, Double Team*, Double-Edge, Growth, Hyper Beam, Mega Drain, Mimic, Poison Powder, Rage, Razor Leaf, Reflect, Rest, Slam, Sleep Powder, SolarBeam, Stun Spore, Substitute, Swords Dance, Take Down, Toxic, Vine Whip, Wrap

    * Evasion moves are banned in Stadium OU.

    Movesets

    Standard

    • Sleep Powder
    • Razor Leaf
    • Body Slam
    • Swords Dance

    Alternative Options: Acid, Double-Edge, Hyper Beam, Substitute, Stun Spore


    Sleep Powder is for incapacitating the opponent. If your foe does not wake up immediately after being put to sleep you will have a free turn for Swords Dance. Although sleep status only lasts 1-3 turns in Stadium it is still a strong status to induce.

    Razor Leaf is the best Grass-type attack move in the game. Victeebel's speed is high enough for Razor Leaf to score a critical hit every time, essentially giving it about 107 BP. It is guaranteed to KO every Pokemon with a Grass-type weakness in 2 hits or less except for Vaporeon, who takes about 47% minimum damage. Razor Leaf is one of the main reasons to use Victreebel.

    Body Slam is used when it will deal more damage than Razor Leaf or to try to paralyze. It is Victreebel's best option for a coverage move. Good BP, reliability, and a chance of paralyzing make Body Slam a great move to use with Swords Dance. A +2 Atk Body Slam deals 348 minimum damage to Chansey (not counting a critical hit), which is 3.5 below half of its maximum HP. This means that there is a very good chance that Chansey can be 2hKOed after a Swords Dance.

    Swords Dance brings Victreebel's attack stat up to 616 after one use. Swords Dance will make Victreebel a strong force, especially if its counters are gone.

    Acid may seem like a poor choice, but it is Victreebel's strongest attack against Exeggutor, which is always 2hKOed after a Swords Dance (unless both hits are critical). The only notable Pokemon that you will deal less damage than Body Slam to are Alakazam, Chansey, and Zapdos. The 10% chance of lowering the foe's defense stat one stage is also nice.

    Double-Edge is stronger than Body Slam and does not have a recharge turn like Hyper Beam, but the recoil will hurt after repeated use. It does not have any important damage differences in 1v1 situations because most of the Pokemon Victreebel would attack with a physical move instead of Razor Leaf (like Exeggutor or Alakazam) will hit Victreebel back hard. Double-Edge can score big damage with a critical hit, but Victreebel's critical hit rate is not high enough to hope for one.

    Hyper Beam is very strong after gaining attack boosts. Unfortunately the recharge turn leaves Victreebel very vulnerable. It can come in handy late game if Victreebel is at full health and the opponent is left with a few Pokemon that can be KOed by a boosted Hyper Beam and are preferably slower than Victreebel, but this is pretty situational.

    Substitute can be used instead of Sleep Powder or Swords Dance, but Swords Dance is the recommended move to replace. Foregoing Sleep Powder makes you lose a powerful Status inducement, replacing Body Slam leaves Victreebel offensively weak against Chansey and Grass-types, and Razor Leaf should always be in Victreebel's moveset. The main reason to use Substitute is to block status, but it has other uses. Using Substitute eases prediction when faced against a slower foe, it can scout for full paralysis, and it also saves your Pokemon from Explosion and Selfdestruct.

    Stun Spore can surprise the opponent, especially if used along with Sleep Powder. The key is knowing when the opponent will switch. If played right, you can put one pokemon to sleep and paralyze what switches in, or you can paralyze a pokemon that your opponent switches in to absorb a mispredicted Sleep Powder and save sleep inducement for later. It should not be used over Sleep Powder in a set with Swords Dance because paralysis will not help you boost as well as sleep can.


    Standard Usage

    Victreebel must be played very carefully to be effective. You can switch into a predicted Surf, Thunderbolt, Exeggutor Mega Drain, Slowbro Amnesia, and Golem or Rhydon switch in, that sort of thing. The safest way to get it into play though is after losing a Pokemon. The ideal position is to be up against something slower than Victreebel when the opponent's team is free of status. Leading with Victreebel might seem like a good idea because it gets Sleep Powder, but most common leads have an advantage against it. Showing your opponent your Victreebel early in the match will make them try to hide their Slowbro until Victreebel gets KOed, making Slowbro a major threat.

    At this point, if the foe stays in, you have a 50% chance that the opponent will be put to sleep and stay asleep, a 25% chance to try again, and a 25% chance to miss. If they switch you might put something like Exeggutor or Zapdos to sleep, as these are common counters. If sleep is successful, you can proceed to use Swords Dance or attack the switch in with an appropriate move. Swords Dance is best used if the opponent lacks a hard counter or if they keep the sleeping Pokemon in because boosting attack is a waste of a turn when the oppenent switches in something like Alakazam or Jynx, a turn that would have been better spent using Body Slam. Victreebel will usually come into battle to put something to sleep, attack until it is in an unfavorable position, and then switch out, hopefully being able to repeat the process later.

    If you find that you might never use or make good use of Swords Dance, Stun Spore can be a great move to take its place. Paralysis is a dominant force in Stadium and it can catch a switch in by surprise. If you are facing a Pokemon such as Alakazam or Starmie, and you feel that Victreebel is not too important to help battle the opponent, you can stay in and paralyze with Stun Spore as these Pokemon might not use Substitute in order to take you out with Psychic, or Blizzard in Starmie's case.



    Moveset History

    Pretty much the same moves used in RBY except for Substitute. Hyper Beam will be used less because the recharge turn always takes place. Sleep Powder and Stun Spore must be used carefully because Substitute blocks status in Stadium. A notable moveset not mentioned above is the wrapper set which consists of Wrap, Stun Spore, and 2 finisher moves. The reasons for wrap not being included are listed in the worthless options section below.


    Suspect Options

    Bide is not a very good move choice on Victreebel. It is weak to the very common Blizzard, Ice Beam, and Psychic. The 2 turns of idling will leave Victreebel vulnerable to Status. Also, if the target has Substitute, it can use it on the second turn to avoid receiving more than 25% damage on the third turn. It might be interesting to use with Growth though, but Victreebel should stick to being on the offensive. If Bide gets fixed however, it will be a very bad move choice. The +1 priority is what makes Bide potentially usable.

    Growth's boosts might only be useful defensively since it takes 3 boosts for Mega Drain (Victreebel's 2nd best special attack) to essentially have 100 BP, which will still do less damage than Razor Leaf. Razor Leaf does not get stronger with Growth because its constant critical hits ignore the boosts. Being able to hit harder with special attacks and take less damage from special attacks is a good thing, but it may be hard to get enough turns to boost.

    Mega Drain is much weaker than Razor Leaf, but it gets stronger after a few Growth boosts. Mega Drain, along with Growth and maybe Rest in the same moveset, can be a decent move because gaining half of the HP damage inflicted is a nice benefit. Mega Drain will not absorb any HP if it hits a Substitute.

    Mimic, although not very reliable, may be useful if you manage to get something like Softboiled, Amnesia, or Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave is a better option than Stun Spore on Victreebel because it is more accurate, and the inability to paralyze ground types is not an issue because Ground-type Pokemon (with the possible exception of Nidoking and Nidoqueen) will rarely switch in. If you can mimic Psychic from Exeggutor and manage to take it down you now have a move that can scare Gengar without Psychic, but this is very unlikely.

    Reflect halves damage from physical moves, thus greatly improving Victreebel's bulk seeing as how Victreebel has only one physical weakness, which will most commonly only come in the form of Zapdos' Drill Peck. Reflect might only be useful with rest though. A set with Growth/Mega Drain/Reflect/Rest might be challenging to take down after gaining the boosts, but this set is hard to pull off and is better done by Venusaur.

    Rest is a risky choice. It will be hard for Victreebel to survive the turns of inactivity without any defensive boosts. Also Rest is only useful if you want to keep any boosts you have gained since Victreebel does not have great defenses like Lapras or Snorlax.

    Take Down is a weaker and less accurate Double-Edge with less recoil. Much like with Double-Edge, Victreebel is better off with Body Slam for a physical attack move.

    Toxic is only a good option if you really want to force your foe to swicth. Toxic is great to use on your opponent's last pokemon, but it is usually better for other Pokemon to do this. Your team will be better off with Victreebel's usual switch-ins paralyzed or put to sleep.



    Worthless Options

    Cut has twice the PP than Body Slam has, but has much less power and is about 95% accurate with no advantageous secondary effect.

    Poison Powder is outclassed by Toxic. Victreebel is better off sleeping or paralyzing foes.

    Rage is not needed to boost attack because Victreebel already has access to Swords Dance, and the BP is pitiful.

    Slam, like Cut, is also outclassed by Body Slam.

    SolarBeam will do an insignificant amount more of damage than Razor Leaf when it does not score a critical hit. The charge up turn is what makes it a bad move. The opponent can just switch to a Pokemon that won't take much damage from SolarBeam or use Substitute if they are faster.

    Vine Whip is weaker than Mega Drain and bares no benefits. The only somewhat understandable reason one would even think of using Vine Whip is that it gets more PP than Mega Drain to use with Growth, but it is still not worth using.

    Wrap does not work properly on the Pokemon Online Battle Simulator at the moment. It is supposed to lock the user into attacking for 2-5 turns during which the opponent is unable to move, much like how it works in the RBY cartridges. In Stadium though, the user loses a turn when the opponent switches because the switch in does not get attacked by Wrap. This is to say that the only action that occurs in this turn is the opponent's switch. Wrap in the simulator however is more broken than it was in RBY. In addition to making the target unable to attack or switch for up to 5 turns, the user is free to select any move or switch. Switching frees the target from Wrap. This gives the user an incredibly unfair advantage because the user can use its strongest attacks, heal, or boosts its stats while the opponent can only stay in and watch. Wrap is a very broken move and it (along with Fire Spin, Bind, and Clamp) should not be used with any Pokemon since it functions very differently than it did in the first generation. If and when Wrap gets fixed it will be a pretty bad option because the opponent can just keep switching out of Wrap's immobilization. Wrap's PP will not roll over 63 like it does in the cartridge, or at least it shouldn't in Stadium.



    Partners

    This is where careful team building comes into play. It is not necessary to have a check for all of Victreebel's counters, but it is important to have a plan to deal with Gengar, Alakazam, and Zapdos. These Pokemon stop Victreebel cold. Zapdos and Gengar both need to be KOed, and Alakazam at least needs to be paralyzed and have low HP if you want to deal consistent damage with Victreebel.

    Zapdos is the easiest problem to deal with. Either one of Golem or Rhydon make excellent partners. The most Zapdos can do to these Pokemon is poison them with Toxic. Both always 2hKO with Rock Slide when it does not miss, and even if it does miss they have nothing to fear from Zapdos.

    Gengar is a bit of a problem. Normally Exeggutor would make for a great counter, but having it as a partner leaves you with 2 Pokemon weak to Zapdos, making it hard to fit a Water-type into the team and having to use Golem or Rhydon very carefully. This also leaves you with 3 Ice-type weaknesses, so Exeggutor is not recommended. Instead, you can have Alakazam, either to lead against lead Gengar, or to bring in later if Gengar switches in. Chansey is another good partner. It takes little damage from Gengar's attacks except for Explosion. If it does explode then you get rid of Victreebel's greatest wall, but having Chansey take an Explosion might not be worth it. Starmie is an interesting option if you are concerned with lead Gengar. A Gengar might be tempted to stay in and use Thunderbolt only to lose more than half of its max HP to Psychic. If you have Starmie and Victreebel on the same team you must do your best to keep your Ground-Type alive and in good health to protect them from Zapdos.

    Other options for dealing with Gengar are Tauros and Snorlax. Both 2hKO with Earthquake. Snorlax is 4hKOed by Thunderbolt and Tauros also has a chance of having to be 4hKOed instead of 3hKOed. Another way of dealing with Gengar is to bait an Explosion and switch into Golem or Rhydon do absorb it. It is not recommended to have Gengar with Victreebel because that leaves you with 2 Pokemon that are countered hard be Exeggutor.

    Alakazam will usually switch in after you put something to Sleep or have KOed a foe with Victreebel. For the former it is a good idea to use Body Slam. Paralysis cripples Alakazam. If there is no such luck, then Chansey makes a great partner. Chansey can outstall Alakazam and also counters Starmie, who can be very dangerous. Snorlax can switch into Thunder Wave and threaten with STAB Body Slam.

    Some of the Pokemon not mentioned above are Articuno, Moltres, Jynx, and Exeggutor. Articuno is taken care of by Lapras, and to a lesser extent Starmie, with Thunderbolt. Moltres is handled easily by Golem and Rhydon, although a burn will hurt a lot. Jynx can be worked around as it poses little threat to Alakazam, Starmie, and Tauros after one of your Pokemon has been put to sleep. Exeggutor can be a pain though.

    Exeggutor is a hard Pokemon to deal with. If you can get Victreebel in safely against it, you now have an upper hand. An Exeggutor might be tempted to stay in because it 2hKOes with Psychic, but as long as you can keep it asleep it cannot harm you. If putting it to sleep is not an option due to sleep clause, a good partner is Jynx. Jynx can switch into Psychic and hit very hard with Blizzard. It also has a sleep inducing move of its own; Lovely Kiss. Articuno is another interesting option. It is 4hKOed by Psychic and destroys it with Blizzard.



    Counters

    The best wall is Gengar. Gengar is immune to Victreebel's Normal-type moves and takes very little damage from Acid and Razor Leaf, taking at most approximately 17% damage from Razor Leaf. Gengar requires Psychic, Seismic Toss, or Night Shade to do good damage though because Thunderbolt deals at most about 13% damage without a critical hit.

    Exeggutor is also a huge threat. It resists Razor Leaf and can hit back hard with STAB super effective Psychic. Alakazam and Jynx are other Psychic-types that can 2hKO with Psychic, or Blizzard in Jynx's case. Exeggutor takes the least damage from all 3.

    Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres all resist Razor Leaf and can inflict huge damage with Blizzard or Ice Beam, Drill Peck, and Fire Blast respectively. Other Flying-types like Dodrio, Dragonite, and even Fearow can switch into a resisted Razor Leaf and hit back with a super effective attack.

    Lesser Counters include any Fire-type Pokemon, Venomoth who is 4x resistant to Razor Leaf and learns Psychic, and Scyther who is also 4x resistant to Razor Leaf and can deal good Damage with Slash. Both bugs will 3hKO.

    If Starmie or Cloyster can be switched in safely, they threaten Victreebel with Blizzard or Ice Beam, especially if Victreebel is within KO range of those moves. Cloyster can switch into Body Slam, but Cloyster and Victreebel both have 238 speed, and Cloyster stands a high chance of being 1hKOed by Razor Leaf after a Body Slam.

    Anything that switches in to Victreebel must be wary of Sleep Powder and Stun Spore. Letting your only counter fall asleep will make Victreebel a strong threat, and having your fast Pokemon get paralyzed is always a loss. You will most likely have to let something fall asleep before you can KO Victreebel.



    References

    1. Smogon RBY Analysis
    2. Bulbapedia Moves List



    Contributors

    Written by Mantishuffle.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  2. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Looks very nice so far :)

    You only need one moveset history btw, talking about both sets.
     
  3. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Member

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    Wrap works like it should for Stadium it only has the binding feature in RBY cartridges very nice analysis Victreebel is quite nice if supported properly.
     
  4. Mantishuffle

    Mantishuffle Just another gen wunner. Member

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    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  5. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    We forgot to take CH into account for +2 Body Slam, so it may well be lower than 99%.

    442/512 chance there is no CH
    70/512 chance there is a CH

    So if 2 turns are not critical hits, ~74.5% chance of happening, there is 13/(39^2) possibilities that it won't be 2HKOed. I worked out there were 13 possibilities with a small addition table of low damages. But now we're going to have to take into account the CH chance too. Anyone got any ideas how to work it out exactly in a simple way?
     
  6. Kingsley

    Kingsley Member

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    While this comment may have no place here: I like Victreebel
     
  7. mantidactyle

    mantidactyle Member

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    Sleep Powder is far from being an automatic choice on Stadium Victreebel.

    Given the 75% accuracy, and the 33.3% chance that the target wakes up on the first turn, if we don't account sleeping a switching target... This gives us a 50% chance this move will do its job on Stadium. Far far weaker than in RBY.

    And that's not mentioning Substitute from all the Pokemon faster than Victreebel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
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