RBY 2U Viability Rankings

Glad to see people agree about Tentacruel.

Surprised that Dugtrio has emerged as the overlooked threat, to be honest. I guess Rhydon moving up to 1U helped.

Gyarados, Dodrio and Kangaskhan dropped a lot in usage (compared to 2U) - these three pokemon are a nightmare for Dugtrio; being faster than Tentacruel, which got omnipresent, helps too.
I'm not sure whether it's going to stay A-ranked or not, though: Dragonite is a tough opponent, and we still need to test all of the possible plays of Dugtrio vs DNite encounters.
 
Is Dragonite really that great, though? 2U is much faster than 1U and Articuno being unbanned doesn't help.

Articuno is rarer than one would expect, Tentacruel is a major issue though; anyway, Dragonite is tough to handle if it sets Agility up because most pokemon are really frail (1 hit of Wrap does 8-10% to many opponents).
Dugtrio is one of the very few pokemon that give Dnite a free turn, unless it specifically uses Toxic - I don't like Dnite because big part of the tier is fast and has access to TWave and/or Blizzard, but it's the best answer to Earthquake and it can be a nightmare in case it finds an opening (Kangaskhan, Dodrio, Persian, Dugtrio or just FPs, sleeping/frozen pokemon).
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
js Dug has Sand Attack as well, which can be effective at gimping Dnite (not my idea, can't remember who I got it from). Obviously you're still relying on misses which isn't reliable, but your odds are a lot better and with some luck you can easily come out ahead. Also Toxic misses suck lol

It's clear by now that I was getting ahead of myself in dropping Khan to B, even though I think it belongs there I'm obviously in the minority on that one. Khan can rise back to A

Also bumping Vap to B. It's fat and more importantly, multiple people support it for B and Kaz did a solid job selling its strengths.

Changes I'm not implementing yet:

Buzz->B. Yes, of all the things that revenge Tenta it is probably the least effective (unless we count Persian? idk), but electric typing is still goddamn amazing- Dug weakness is literally the only downside to this pokemon, and even then there are plenty of potential Dug checks

Hypno->A. I agree that the raw power of the tier's special attackers limits Hypno a bit, but I still see it as being S for a few reasons- it has no glaring weaknesses, which makes it probably the easiest pokemon to fit onto a team. It's your best bet at managing the uncomfortable matchups that it and Kadabra force, given that they don't really have any great switchins. I know this is kinda using the argument that a pokemon checks itself, but it really is invaluable having something that can stall other Psychics for an opening for something else, something that Kadabra doesn't do nearly as well due to its frailty. Lastly, it's still the best sleep user in the tier by a comfortable margin (which isn't saying much, given how unreliable/outright bad its users are)

Victreebel->B. I don't see what niche it has tbh. It kinda checks Oma/Vap (Blizz hurts lol), and that's about it. Meanwhile Dnite, MoltCuno and Psychic types all rip it to shreds. It can't spread status effectively because most status absorbers are pretty effective against it (Psychic types, also Haunter since it's a lead). It can't deal damage reliably because its STAB is easily tanked by its checks and unless it can snare a HB kill it's forced to Wrap, which leaves the opponent free to bring in their MoltCuno or whatever. It basically accomplishes nothing.

Moltres->B. As I see it, key issues for Moltres are that it's checked by Dnite and Gyara where Cuno is not, and it burns rather than freezes, with Cuno being able to stay in and fish for freezes if it wants. Getting checked by GyaraNite is an issue, no doubt about it, but burning rather than freezing isn't the end of the world. All of Moltres' checks are limited by a burn, whether by reducing their attack power, eliminating the threat of Wrap spam or by simply being slower and thus susceptible to Wrap/FSpin. Cuno having the option of staying in is a positive, but as mentioned it can only really fish for freezes, a play that's unreliable and prone to costing most of its bulk. Meanwhile, Molt's Fire Spin can support the team really nicely and helps mitigate some of its bad matchups, as Tenta's the only thing switching into it that's faster
 
Molt looks good on paper but in practice I’ve never really seen it accomplish anything, it’s very one dimensional and most teams will have more than enough to handle it without having to think about it. Fire Blast’s and moreso Fire Spin’s accuracy are significant issues. It’s outclassed as a partial trapper, Fire typing is still pretty shitty, even with the possibility of burns, special attackers are everywhere.

I think it fits in more alongside the likes of Gyara/Drio/Haunter (the tools are there for it to be great but you need the right circumstances) than the likes of Dragonite/Dugtrio/Buzz (can consistently still do something for the match even if the circumstances are against them)
 
So this seems random, but did any of you guys understand Moltres yet?
I'm even starting to doubt its worth over Charizard (which in itself is far from great, but at least speed ties Tenta and can hit it hard with EQ).
On that note [might be too early], does Charizard belong into this tier? What are your opinions? (I know we're gonna have a vote on those kind of things anywaybut atm I do not know what I'd vote for it)
Same question for Poliwrath, it is relatively weak, but has some cool tricks up its sleeve with especially Hypnosis and access to Earthquake for Tentacruel but also Amnesia and Fire/Ice resistence. I can see it belonging into the tier, but am not sure if its strenghts (basically Hypnosis) are enough.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
I don't see any appeal to Zard- the Tenta matchup is a weak point imo because it's dependent on a coinflip- that's a 50% chance of Zard's main niche being non-existent. Meanwhile Molt's superior bst is imo valuable in neutral matchups- normals and psychics in particular.

I'm also not buying Poli being part of the tier. C is definitely the right spot for it imo. Obviously there's the issue of its bad matchups against Electrics AND Psychics, but if you're running EQ/STAB/Amnesia/Hypnosis you also have to contend with Dnite and Gyara (unless Blizz>STAB?). That's a lot of top threats to struggle against. Meanwhile I just think it's really easy to play around- it basically needs to use Amnesia to do anything against stuff not weak to EQ/STAB, which gives you plenty of leeway in bringing a check in, while its bulk is decent, but not great, so it tends to get overwhelmed if it enters play multiple times.

Anyway I have no idea why I didn't drop Moltres last time. Even though I'm not completely sold on it being mediocre, too many people view it as B to ignore. Molt to B
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Sooooo after my set vs Lusch I did some more teambuilding and I've lost a LOT of interest in birds and electrics.

Regarding the birds there are the Tenta issues which have been discussed ad nauseum, but at every stage where I might've considered adding them to my team I preferred Dnite instead- all of them function as checks to physical attackers, but the Dug matchup is a huge deal imo, with it being too easy for Rock Slide to become threatening to the birds, less so for Dnite. The flipside is that Dnite is worse against Normals due to BST/STAB, but to me this does not outweigh the perils the birds face in handling Dug.

As something of an extension to this I'm no longer enamoured with electrics. Whenever I wanted a special attacker capable of revenging Tenta I went for Kadabra. Admittedly there's a lot less overlap, as Raichu's primarily an offensive threat (though its poor defensive utility relative to Buzz is itself a problem), while even if you set aside Buzz's bird matchup it still gets to spam its STAB against predicted Hypno switches, rather than relying on SToss like Kadabra does. Still, overall I'm less of a Buzz fan now.

Proposing:
Articuno and Electabuzz -> B
Moltres and Raichu -> C


Regarding C rank, gonna propose that Gong and Rat drop. Rat's just too difficult to justify with all the other normals available, while I just don't see why you'd use Gong- freeze immunity and slightly more powerful Blizz just aren't worth it imo when you've got Tenta, Oma and Vap being better options.

As for D rank, I was overhyping Articuno by adding Staryu. Staryu and Egg should imo be removed. Star's niche is the stuff of E rank imo, it's otherwise terrible, while Egg's niche is also tiny- it has to compete with Tangela and Hypno as dual status users that don't have terrible typings, with Egg's only edge over Tangela being its Psychic matchup (literally everything else is worse) and its niche over Hypno being that it frees Hypno to run something else and reliability (slightly) I guess? In return it achieves literally nothing besides Sleep, having terrible matchups against just about everything.

Note that I haven't tested the last two though. I almost included Whirl, but changed my mind, pending testing.

Edit: I now support Tang to C
 
I wouldn't move tangela to C. It does nothing more besides tanking dugtrio's eq, which dnite does better, and has a counter punch. While tangela doesn't have any strong attacks to really be viable. I think it remains a niche, such as being paired with a wrap lead, and then getting a free switch in when they go dug, then you get a free powder off.
Tang - D

I can agree with Rat being dropped, because of other superior normals being present.

As with dewgong, the frz immunity isn't too flashy, so also agree with it getting dropped.

Finally, what about duck & slash, has anyone had any luck being able to get these set up? I think these two can drop as well.

Also I can agree with the electrics getting bumped down, both at B, the psychics just do it better. I'd keep them at same level, as Raichu gets agility. (B)
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Tangela doesn't just take on Dug, it is also effective vs Normal types due to how badly they get crippled by Stun Spore. It resists Water while not getting immediately destroyed by Blizz the way Dnite does, and it's also neutral to Psychics. This latter point is a big deal imo, and enables it to pull off a dual powder wrap set arguably better than Victreebel, enough to give it a substantial niche.

As for Raichu, I think Agility is being grossly overhyped. These are already two of the fastest pokemon in the tier, only Buzz has greater defensive utility by a huge margin thanks to its superior speed tier
 

Sevi 7

Member
Well, it's been over a year since this has been updated, and the meta has definitely changed in that time. With the 2U World Championship now complete, perhaps we should change it now?

I'm not a great player or anything, but I'll put some of my thoughts on potential changes below. I'm hoping it can spark some discussion.

Changes for the S-Tier

Tentacruel: S --> S+
Tentacruel isn't just a great mon in this tier, it's the iron-fisted ruler of 2U. It alone decides who is and isn't worthy to enter its kingdom. Any potentially viable mon in the tier must be able to deal with Tentacruel, speed tiers orbit around Tentacruel and being able to check Tentacruel is enough to make Pokemon more viable. Tentacruel has the tools to check pretty much every other Pokemon, and it's so good that some are willing to go into a 50/50 freeze war, just so they have a chance at beating it. Just calling Tentacruel S, isn't doing it justice.

Dugtrio: A --> S
Since Tentacruel came to the scene, Dugtrio has been becoming more and more popular as well. It's the fastest viable mon in the tier and can use its great crit-rate and decent attack to pick off and/or outright kill an opponent, making it a great revenge killer and late-game sweeper. It also has electric immunity, which Tentacruel and all other water-types greatly appreciate. Most importantly for its ranking though, Dugtrio has become a mainstay staple of the tier and is seen on every team. One must be blind to the current metagame, if they think Dugtrio should be anything less than S.

Dragonite: A --> S-
Dragonite is a powerful threat that, with some luck, can just win. It's much better than in 1U, as you have fewer checks and counters to it in 2U. I don't think anyone really needs a long explanation on why Nite is good, because it's infamous even among players who have never played RBY before. However, by the ranking's own recquirements Dragonite isn't a pokemon "that you should put on most serious teams that you create" as there are plenty of completely viable, serious teams that are better off without Nite on them.

So why put it into S-? Well, because Dragonite does "excel at [its] role in the tier to such a point that [it is a] dominating force." You can run a perfectly viable team without Dragonite, but you cannot run a viable team that doesn't go the extra mile to counter it. For example, good pokemon like Dugtrio and Persian need to run the terrible move, Toxic or else they become victim of agili-wrap. Blizzard become a serious option on Pokemon like Tentacruel and Gyarados, even if that means the mons wouldn't be running any STAB moves. Even some Kangaskhan run Blizzard, just to have the chance at sniping an opponent's Nite with a crit.

Much like Tentacruel, Dragonite is meta-warping and just calling it A is underselling that.

Changes for the A-Tier

Kadabra: A --> A+
To be honest, I'm tempted to suggest that Kadabra should either become S or S-, since it's become part of the most common core in 2U -which consists of: Tentacruel, Dugtrio, Hypno, Kadabra and a flying-type. However, I'm not sure how I feel about that. The only reason its on nearly every team is because it complement Hypno really well. Without Hypno its definietly only an A-ranked mon. Furthermore, there are teams that can go without Kadabra and still win. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I don't feel like I need to justify Kadabra too much, because it's already A. We all know what it does and why its good. As said in the paragraph above, the reason it should be A+ is because it and Hypno make a great pair. Kadabra can cover your own Hypno by absorbing the Hypnosis, giving your Hypno the advantage. Kadabra also does a good job at widdling down opposing Hypno with Thunder Wave and Seismic Toss. With Hypno being such a pain to deal with, having Kadabra there is great. It's so great in fact, that I feel that the best way to contest the two is to run your own Kadabra and Hypno core, which is why we see it on so many teams nowadays.

Gyarados: B --> A
Gyarados' interesting typing has put it into an interesting position. It has become the second most viable water-type as well as the second (or possibly first) most viable flying-type. This combo, along with other changes in the tier, such as Dugtrio rising in popularity, has made it a solid contender in the tier.

Acting as an excellent check to Dugtrio, a paralysis spreader via Body Slam and a solid mixed sweeper, Gyarados has become a staple on balanced teams. This pokemon who was once a humble Magikarp can successfully claim that it has replaced the fearsome legendary bird, Articuno in the meta. So, the viability rankings should reflect that.

Haunter: B --> A
Haunter's strong showing comes from serving multiple roles at once, which puts it over the top of its competitors. Haunter's unique Ghost-typing allows it to be completely immune to Wrap and other Normal-type attacks. This means that it can do a good job at checking -and sometimes completely countering- Persian or even Dragonite. By running Hypnosis, Haunter can either serve as the team's backup sleeper or even the main sleeper if one would rather run something else on Hypno. Finally, with Thunderbolt, Haunter can fill the team's need for an Electric-type attack. Unfortunately it doesn't get Thunder Wave; however, Thunder Wave is not as spamable as it is in 1U so that is more negligible.

Although one might see Haunter as a jack of all trades and a master of none, on balanced teams where you need a lot out of one mon, this makes it better than a master of one.

Changes for the B-Tier

Articuno: A --> B
Articuno has a great special stat, decent bulk and a decent typing -with both ground immunity and STAB Blizzards. Articuno can also run Agility, mixed attacking, or Reflect/Rest sets equally, meaning it can fit a few different roles that a team might need. However, Articuno doesn't have much after that. Pokemon who are resistent to Ice-types, only need to worry about an untimely freeze. Articuno must also be careful about switching in on a potential Earthquake, because Rock Slide -which is commonly ran on those who can use Earthquake- can 2HKO Articuno without a crit. Worst of all for Articuno, Gyarados' better bulk and only 2x weakness to Rock Slide has made it a more common Flying-type choice in the meta. So, although it's not a terible mon by any means, it has become a victim of the meta changes and is no longer as viable as it once was.

Electabuzz: A --> B
To be honest, there is an arguement for keeping Electabuzz at A, but if Electabuzz stays at A then Raichu needs to be moved up to A. Because the two perform at the same level in the meta. I've gone back and forth on whether they should go up or down, but for now I'm just going to argue them both to B, because they seem to be used less in higher level play. It's not the best arguement, but I'm hoping better people can come in and share their thoughts on the matter.

Electabuzz got bumped up and Raichu got degraded after Rhydon got promoted to 1U. However, the two have proven to be at the same viability. Although Electabuzz can get some great use out of Psychic, Dugtrio -the most common Electric-type switch in- fears Surf more than Psychic. Furthermore, Electabuzz's 5 extra base speed does mean it's gaurunteed to outspeed Tentacruel; however, Raichu still speed ties and Tentacruel doesn't want to risk the 50/50. Additionally, Raichu gets Agility, making paralysis less impactful on Electabuzz.

Again, Electabuzz and Raichu perform at the same level and shouldn't be so far apart from each other in the viability rankings.

Changes for the C-Tier

Moltres: B --> C
Although Moltres was once so feared in the tier that it was banned, with Tentacruel and other bulky waters as the cornerstone of the meta, Moltres is now the one who needs to live in fear. Sporting Agility, Fire Spin and Fire Blast as its one and only useable move set it can do some damage, spreading burns against wrappers and physical attackers, trapping slower mons, etc. However, it's entirely even more luck based than Dragonite or Hydro Pump Tentacruel, and it doesn't want to spread burns to pokemon like Kadabra. It still holds a niche, but it definitely isn't at the same level of other Pokemon in the B-Tier.

Charizard: D --> C
This is the one I'm the least sure about on this list; however, I really can think of a huge difference between Moltres and Charizard. In fact, with Body Slam, Earthquake and Slash, Charizard might be a better hit and run attacker than Moltres. Pokemon who are more comfortable about switching into Moltres, like Omastar and Kadabra have to think twice. Furthermore, with 100 base speed, Fire Spin can be used as a pivoting tool more often than.

Tangela D --> C
An arguement can be made for Tangela to B as well. However, it definitely needs to be at least C, so that's what I'm petitioning for here.

Tangela can serve well on bulky teams, who need a mon that is resistent to both Ground-type and Electric-type attacks, something that Omastar desperately needs. In addition, Tangela has access to double powders, which gives a team a 75% accurate sleep move -instead of the standard 60% in 2U. Furthermore, Tangela can combine Stun Spore with Bind for hilarious psuedo Thunder Wave Drgonite-like results. Tangela's base speed is unfortunately low and even just a 8 point difference would be a huge difference on it. However, nothing can be done about that.

Overall, Tangela is a nice bulky Grass-type choice that has enough at its disposal to make it viable on bulky teams.

Changes for the D-Tier

Butterfree: Unranked --> D
Butterfree may not have anything going for it offensively, but its Ground-type immunity, double powder and a base speed of 70 all together give it a small niche. Butterfree can, at the right moment, disrupt your opponent's momentum and turn the game in your favor. Although one should have some serious reservations about using Butterfree, it shouldn't be 100% overlooked, which makes it as viable as the other D-Tier mons.

Porygon: Unranked --> D
If I had the time, will or ability to playtest 2U again, this would be one of the first pokemon I'd like to try out more, because it might just be an uncovered gem -although it'd only be like a C on this list. It holds a similar, but different role as it does in 1U. It walls physcial attackers like Kangaskhan with Recover, but it's better for spreading status with Thunder Wave, because speed matters more in 2U. Furthermore, unlike in 1U, Porygon can also kill major threats on its own. Starting with Dugtrio, Earthquake can only 2HKO with a crit, and Porygon 2HKOs with Ice Beam all the time. Porygon can also 2HKO Dragonite with Ice Beam as well. Using Double Edge, Kadabra is 2HKOed, which means a paralyzed Kadabra has to be hesitant before it switches in. Thunderbolt can also be used to 2HKO Gyarados, but that's obviously not as meaningful.

At the very least, Porygon carves out enough of niche to hold a seat in the D-Tier.

Anyways, I just wrote for way longer than I had originally planned or wanted too, so I'm stopping here. Hopefully this gets some good and proper discussion going and we can get this list updated for the current meta.
 
Apperciate it.
I don't have an exact opinion on all these Pokemon you mention, but on the ones I do, I'll give mine.
First of all, my top 6 in this tier currently are (in this order): Tentacruel, Hypno, Dragonite, Dugtrio, Kangaskhan, Kadabra.

The first two are clear S-Ranks to me (not S+ though). I'd be okay with Dragonite in S as well, I suppose.

Dugtrio, I'm high on as well, but it's not S material. Yes, speed is nice and all, but you are 2HKOed by virtually anything and have to be very careful when bringing it in (even on a Wrap if the opponent catches you on your switch). Dragonite and Gyarados are also quite good at checking it.

Dropping Buzz to B is okay, I think. Haunter is nowhere near A though (imo). he does not even beat Tentacrual in a straight 1v1 should it come to it, and Dragonite is also not even too great of a 1v1 cause Blizzard does decent damage and Haunter cannot KO a Dragonite after Agility fast enough without Exploding (if sleep clause is active).

Unsure about Articuno and Gyarados. While I like Gyarados and would not be opposed to it in A, I'm not sure it offers enough. It's a great hit-and-runner though and does have some good bulk, so it won't be KOed too easily. Articuno is not the best Flying-type to check grounds for reasons mentioned, but it is still one of the most dangerous late fame sweepers, when it sets up Agility (after opposing Tenta is weak/dead) and fires off those amazing Blizzards.

I don't have a strong opinion on the rest, but I'd say I could get behind most of what you write. As sad as it is, but I really don't see too many reasons to make room on my teams for Moltres. I'd chose Articuno over it most of the time, and you just need those slots for Hypno and some offensive presence that is not as easily checked by Tentacruel and the Psychics (physical offense, read: Kanga). Dragonite being around does not help either (Articuno is better against it obviously.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Hey if anyone else wants to take over this thread that's fine by me. Although I'm still really interested in RBY 2U, my absence from tournaments isn't really compatible with staying up to date with things, given that this tier is really only played in tournaments.

Anyway~~~

I'm just going to go ahead and make the following changes:
Tenta S-> Cthulhu Rank. Yeah Tenta gets its own rank named after it, so I decided to be a little silly with the name. Off the top of my head, the only instance I can recall this occurring is with Lax in GSC OU rankings, which is fitting, because that's an apt comparison to how thoroughly Tenta dominates RBY 2U
Buzz A->B. Honestly if I want a special attacker capable of revenging Tenta I'd just pick Kadabra. That's honestly how it felt to me last time I played, that Buzz was only really something you picked if you really wanted either redundancy in that role, or you really needed role compression insofar as Buzz does that while being an Electric type. Maybe that's a little off base, but oh well
Moltres B->C. Yeah fair call on it dropping, there's just too much working against it in this tier, and sharing a lot with Cuno doesn't really do it any favours
Tangela D->C. I was in favour of this before and I'm in favour of it now

Thoughts on potential changes
  • With Tenta being in its own rank, I'm open to the idea of having more pokemon in S. I'm open to the idea of Dnite in S, Kadabra sprang to mind tbh, but I suspect that's overrating it. Not really a fan of Dug in S, as its defensive utility is really suspect- at least Kadabra can soft check virtually every special attacker, even if its offense isn't as valuable as Dug's
  • Not a fan of Gyara and Haunt in A. Haunter I think suffers too much from the master of none side of things, while Gyara I just don't recall being that effective- good but not great. Also Cuno's bulk is better than Gyara's on both sides js, and Cuno can theoretically sweep, whereas Gyara's strictly a hit and run attacker. That said, both of them are very good, and I could definitely see them moving up if A gets shuffled around a bit.
  • Cuno in B sounds right to me, tbh I would've gone ahead and made this change but mixed reactions so I guess we'll see
  • Don't like Zard in C. I don't really like the Molt comparison, as the BST difference is enormous, while I feel like Zard has a lot of potential to go wrong insofar as it really depends on predicting the opponent correctly to predict the right move- Molt's FB by contrast is pretty dumb in that you can click it pretty much any time and murder non-resists, deal decent chip damage to resists but you have to ragequit if Oma comes out.
  • Disagree with both noms to D. In Pory's case, I think its stats hold it back- its bulk leaves it very little room to tolerate chip damage and hax, while its poor speed compounds this issue. In Butterfree's case, Tangela basically outclasses it, as the speed advantage I think is a really tiny niche that gets dwarfed by Butterfree's many flaws
 

DDX2

Member
So has there been any general progression thoughts for advancing for making final tiering here and testing for Tier 3 again?
I still wish we'd have continued until what was likely going to end up Tier 9 before the changes, using every pokemon somewhere.
 
So has there been any general progression thoughts for advancing for making final tiering here and testing for Tier 3 again?
I still wish we'd have continued until what was likely going to end up Tier 9 before the changes, using every pokemon somewhere.
I tried making progress on Smogon. We will likely draw the OU / UU Cutoff now that way: Victreebel will be OU, Golem will be UU, everything else stays the same. At that point (idk if there is any opposition) I think we could continue that process on Smogon (I'll try to start tournemnts and discussion on it) and create the third tier.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
So has there been any general progression thoughts for advancing for making final tiering here and testing for Tier 3 again?
I still wish we'd have continued until what was likely going to end up Tier 9 before the changes, using every pokemon somewhere.
Tiering projects are pretty much on hold here atm. I was the one responsible for them, but I've since left that role and afaik no-one else has really taken over. I do hope someone does at least somewhat revive RBY tiering here, since RBY is kinda our thing. However, different obstacles are in place- on smogon it seems like you have a hard time convincing people to change things, here it's relatively easy imo, but the issue is you need to actually find support for these things, and unfortunately things are a bit quiet atm.

Anyway, as Lusch alluded to, the 1U/2U cutoff has again shifted somewhat- basically no-one thinks Bel isn't worthy of a spot in 1U, Golem is a little more contentious but it's looking like it'll drop. That's probably worth addressing before 3U. Also we definitely shouldn't go beyond 3U, more than that just isn't sustainable in terms of maintenance
 

juoean

Member
(commenting based on the active "uu" ladder on showdown, which happens to be the same tier)

~ i agree with haunter to A. in particular, the comments about it not doing well 1v1 against dragonite do not reflect how the matchup actually occurs in practice, which is haunter checking dragonite after it has already boosted, ie after it has already taken (probably significant) damage, since there is nothing that wants or needs to switch out directly. unless haunter is significantly weakened, it has no real difficulty in checking +2 dragonite. also, if u are rly worried/ want to make certain, u can run toxic on haunter since it has no difficulty with landing toxic on an already boosted dragonite, tho i really dont think that is necessary / worth the moveslot
what running haunter allows is for the few pokemon that leave dragonite an opening to not need to run bad moves to check it, tho dugtrio should prob still run sand attack bc theres nothing significantly better for the fourth slot anyway, other pokemon like kang, persian, dodrio do not need to constantly worry about giving dnite an opportunity to use agility, gyarados can forgo blizzard if you want since while blizzard isnt a bad move for it body slam/hbeam/tbolt/surf or hydro is probably its best moveset overall and blizzard is mainly used to prevent dnite setup, etc. (sevi 7 addressed this @ bad moves / threat of agility set up in their argument for dragonite moving to S-)

haunter does ok-ish against tenta, well against other waters esp gyara, completely counters persian and does fine against the other normals since it outspeeds kang and hits dodrio hard with tbolt, cuno matchup isnt too bad, basically its only common bad matchups are dugtrio and psychics, but kadabra often takes paralysis and then that matchup is nowhere near as bad, plus the psychics arent too hard to switch into, so the main issue for it is dugtrio.

i agree haunter is not a very good sleeper, and it usually does much better late game eg if the psychics have been parad/weakened enough to not easily switch into it (and therefore there is less danger of taking twave since those are also the primary para spreaders), but it often wants to be somewhat preserved for late game anyway to do its job of checking +2 dnite, and if opposing psychics are sufficiently weakened there isnt rly anything that wants to switch into its psychic either so it is sufficiently threatening offensively.
i think u can actually compare haunter and omastar somewhat in their defensive roles, but haunter doesnt face the same issue of being hard to run together with tentacruel since they have very different offensive roles despite shared weaknesses, and haunter doesnt have so many bad matchups (particularly does much better vs tentacruel). the dugtrio weakness is a big issue but dug doesnt rly want to switch in directly unless it can lure tbolt, and because of haunter checking +2 dnite it can easily be paired with eg kangaskhan which does well against dugtrio 1v1 bc of its physical stats along with gyara/dnite/tangela for switching into eqs earlier in the match.
haunter fills most of omastar's roles in the tier but with many fewer drawbacks and fits much more easily onto most teams (key exception being bulky (ie tangela) teams which tend to prefer oma), i think this easily places it a rank above oma. (i do recognize haunter is a bit hard to rank)

~ i agree with sevi 7's comments overall. i dont think dugtrio or dnite are at hypno's level, but agree they are significantly better than evthg else, since there arent subranks (rn) either S or A seems okay but i see them as "S-" or "A+". yes dugtrio is 'weak offensively' but in practice its not hard to get opposing tenta into eq range, and of the things that force tenta out dug is by far the hardest to switch into, basically gyara dnite and tangela are the only consistent switchins in the tier. the other pokemon that are hard to switch into (ie the physical normals) have significant issues, kangashkan's speed and the others having counter(s), so they dont force out anywhere near as much as dugtrio. id support tangela to B as well as there are teams that absolutely depend on it whereas most of C there is little reason to use.

@ poliwrath, idk why no one mentioned running psychic for tenta. i think C rank is fine, and if u run stab + psychic then you will need haunter in the back to check dnite since +2 psychic nowhere near kos. the tenta matchup is rly fine bc of poliwraths good physical bulk (as long as u have something to threaten it), and eq is rly a bad move otherwise. the only physical move maybe worth consideration is body slam to deter psychics as well as tenta, but psychic fits much better eg vs gyara and the special falls are significant too.
i dont think butterfree is viable, idk about porygon esp bc hypno is usually the primary status absorber and what is porygon accomplishing against it.
i have a different 'weird' nomination for d rank ~

Aerodactyl -> D

aerodactyl's niche would be as the only flying type that outspeeds dugtrio. (it can switch into slash very well also, and doesnt take ~too much from rock slide), and dugtrio is easily forced out as it is heavily damaged by all of aero's moves.
while aero's attacking options are ofc disappointing, since most of the tier isnt that physically bulky double-edge + hyper beam will ko a lot of mons after a little chip damage. for example double edge + hbeam does 67-79% to tentacruel even if neither move crits. burn is relatively low risk in this tier so fire blast can be used pretty freely, esp since kadabra is a terrible switch in to aero, and is the best move to hit the physical normals. sky attack should only be used if haunter has been revealed (or is predicted to be on the team), doing 84-99% ie preventing it from effectively switching in, but even if u mispredict the switch-in sky attack does good damage to all common pokemon in the tier, minus omastar which is never paired with haunter. (next lowest are raichu/electabuzz take 32-40%, but they wouldnt rly be paired with haunter either, and then articuno takes 41-48%, all those rolls are if sky attack doesnt crit).
against teams with omastar aero is going to accomplish extremely little (even less than dodrio lol) but otherwise it will have good opportunities to switch in since dugtrio is on almost every team, and it can deal significant damage and/or spread burn(s). and at least burning oma can leave it susceptible to wrap.
aero prob needs to be paired with haunter as it really cannot drop any of those four moves (maybe fire blast but that is important for the physical normals as well as the rare physically bulky ground types) and even with aero's rock typing +2 dnite doesnt need too many wrap turns to bring it into blizzard range, or dnite can just 2hko aero; but aero supports haunter well anyway as a dugtrio switchin.
(aero may have a few other roles with its defensive typing, eg it resists all of kangaskhan and dodrio's common attacks (tho kang may sometimes run rock slide if the fourth moveslot isnt needed for dnite) but it rly cannot afford body slam paralysis, especially against teams with haunter where it needs to be able to use sky attack, so it should only be switching into dugtrio. but eg if u run into some weird team without dugtrio or after dugtrio is gone, it can be used to switch into the physical normals if needed)
 
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Sevi 7

Member
It's been like a year and a half since I made those comments, and honestly my thoughts have changed a lot. I just post on Smogon now, and I plan on doing a big VR post there. But I'm currently trying to work through all the mons and try to see where I think things should go. If I had to put something now though, it'd be:

S
Tentacurel
Hypno

A+
Kadabra
Dugtrio
Dragonite

A
Kangaskhan
Gyarados
Persian

A-
Vaporeon
Articuno

B+
Dodrio
Tangela
Electabuzz

B
Poliwrath
Haunter
Omastar

B-
Raichu
Golem

C
Venusaur
Dewgong
Raticate

D
Venomoth
 
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