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RBY 5U (Under4U) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, May 11, 2016.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Some possible changes.. I don't necessarily agree with all of them but I think they're worth discussing. Talked about some of them with Peas alrdy.
    [​IMG] A -> B? is it really that dangerous? Also it's quite unreliable. Presence of double waters is an issue, etc.
    [​IMG] C -> B? Seen this putting in plenty of work lately
    [​IMG] D -> C: Vileplume is far from omnipresent now, giving it room to do a lot of damage. Dragonair checks it but hates being para'd, and Drowzee you can pressure (tbolt does a little over 30% to Drowzee too and you can crit). Checks Gastly. Pressures waters (2 mons per team at least often) and pidgeot.
    [​IMG] D -> C it seems decent.
    [​IMG] E -> D again the lack of vileplume helps it a bit. Being slow and not being as bulky as you might like bring it down a bit though.
    [​IMG] E -> D bulky enough to check stuff like gastly, pretty strong, has SD, and you can't wall it.
    [​IMG][​IMG]D -> F why use these when gastly is on every team?
    [​IMG][​IMG] D -> E not sure why you'd use them really. I mean Wak kind of checks Drowzee ok (twave immune is nice and stuff) and boom is cool but their typing just means the meta trashes them.
    [​IMG] E -> F / unranked. Electrode outclasses now.
    Some other stuff in D/E/F could move too maybe.
     
  2. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Poliwag in B I agree with, it's feeling a bit inconsistent lately, and it's not too hard to play around. Could that go with seaking in A ? (I don't necessarily think it should i'm just asking, no waters in A feels weird)

    Arbok in B too, I think it's a very good mon when played correctly, para spreader wrapper and can beat gastly. I Don't oppose to Electrode in C because it can be very annoying with the drop of plume usage. I agree with Wartortle in C, it's alright, Seismic Toss is a pretty good move to have against other waters, it dropped from B to D directly last time but i think it's okay for it to be in C

    Magneton in D i don't have an opinion, I don't have one on lickitung either. I wouldn't drop grounds just now, we have to see how the tier fares with electrode in C first, they're annoying to switch into. A comparison between the two could be made if someone has the energy to do it

    Scrapping poisons and pikachu I agree with. I'd scrap Dratini too (in E) because you prefer Arbok most of the time. Flareon and Machamp are I think "alright enough" to stay in D, but weepinbell is a question mark, I guess it's a bit more annoying to switch into than plume ?
     
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  3. Ch01W0n5h1n

    Ch01W0n5h1n Member

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    I would rather let Poli stay where it is then seeing Seaking going to rank A. The argumentation is the same as with Kanga and Persian in 1U - They are a poor mans Tauros and Seaking is a poor mans Seadra in my opinion, and Poli can achieve way more then a Seaking ever could (full para aside).
    I agree with Arbok though, it has been the most reliable Physical Attacker with Glare and Wrap which cover quite a lot in Terms of utility. Earthquakes potential chance to 2hko Gastly and carrying para that outspeed Dragonair are quite decent traits.
    I would wait for Electrode to rise up, 5u is still pretty young and Vilemplume wasnt popular for nothing.
    Same goes for Warturtle. As I do not see Seaking rising, Warturtle should stay where it is.
    Same argumentation for Magneton, if at one point Electrode should rise, Magnetons use rises too.
    I agree with Lickitung. Pidgeot faces hard times versus Gastly, Lickitung however doesnt and there isnt much to switch in that isn´t sacrificeable. It`s ability to set up Swords Dance is just something on top of that (same thing goes for Wrap, though that´s less usable since you would need para support to really get use for that).
    I agree with the last 3 Suggestions.
     
  4. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    For the changes DA proposed, most of them I have no opinion on, but I agree with Wartortle in C and dropping Muk/Weezing and I'm sceptical about dropping ground types.

    In the case of the grounds, I'd argue that recent trends have seen them rise slightly in viability- the meta has always been incredibly harsh to them, with Waters running amok, Vileplume being omnipresent early on, Dragonair packing Blizz, etc. Now there are two trends as I see it- people are less worried about running stuff that they threaten due to them being shit- Electrode, Blizz-less Dragonair, etc. This first trend I don't think is super important, this is just fluctuations that are part of them eventually settling into an equilibrium. The second trend is that we're seeing less Vileplume and much more Gastly. This means a key check is being removed and replaced with something that they're actually decent at threatening. At the moment the reason I'd use them is to aggressively check Gastly and Drowzee.

    So yeah, Wak and Grav I don't think should drop. Still undecided on ranking them together tho, since Grav's advantages offensively are immense, but Wak outpacing Drowzee is a big deal, given that that's one of their key matchups
     
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  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Arbok: C > B - Seems to be pretty much unanimous. I've felt it can pressure harder than Dragonair at times thanks to Glare+Wrap+Earthquake to trash Gastly. Also, yay! (probably) First mono-Poison to be tiered!
    Lickitung: E > D - I've faced off against this thing and underestimated it at my own peril. In the right situation it's pretty capable of putting in work.
    Muk/Weezing: D > E - Gastly presents a major obstacle, however Fire Blast burns keeps them from being garbage since a burned Gastly loses its capacity to wall Dragonair, so I'm not positive they're hopeless yet.
    Dratini: E > F - Definitely agree that Arbok's proving itself to be the 'other' Wrap Pokemon of the meta, so Dratini doesn't really offer much here.
    Pikachu: E > F - As mentioned before, Plume isn't as ubiquitous as before, and Grounds are quite uncommon as well, so Pika finds itself being an inferior Electrode for the most part.

    The other rank changes I think are good, but probably need a bit more time and discussion first.
     
  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Why is Magmar in B? Its advantages over Ninetales are Psychic and better attacking power, while Ninetales is faster, bulkier and access to Fire Spin. Access to Psychic gives it better damaging options against Kabutops and... nothing else. Fire Blast has equal damage output in every other matchup. Sure, Psychic doesn't miss and can Spec drop, but if there's no damage advantage it's tough to argue it's a significant plus. Also fwiw the Kabutops matchup still struggles to 4HKO and you can't Fire Spin out. So what of its physical attacks? Well, it doesn't have much of an advantage over Ninetales, as neither of them are particularly good with them. Virtually the only matchup where Magmar's attacking power makes a significant difference is vs Drowzee. Against Waters they both are really bad, so it becomes a moot point.

    Anyway, Magmar to C imo
     
  7. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    You're missing the Magmar vs. Poliwag matchup, which Magmar has a graet matchup with. Body Slam hits before Poliwag can use Hypnosis and threatens to cripple Poliwag with paralysis, and then if it isn't asleep by the next turn it finishes off Poliwag with Hyper Beam. That though was more relevant when Poliwag was more common as a lead, so I could see Magmar being more of a high C rank than B. Still, I wouldn't discount special drops, those can be really nasty/helpful.
     
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I'm not sure machamp / flareon should be ranked with the rest of the stuff in D right now, I feel like they're worse.

    Also, providing my g1 vs diegolh in the tour to suggest how good lickitung can be.
     
  9. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I don't think Magmar should drop, but Ninetales could raise instead. It's a good Gastly switch-in and it will always be kind of a pain because its checks are like ultra easy to switch into, ther's other stuff you all already know, trap speed etc

    Poliwag to b ? Inconsistent, and it would make sense with a Ninetales raise

    Wak is just not good, you use Graveler if you want a ground, it hits harder, booms (btw i think sub eq bslam boom is a good set since slide inly hits pidgeot who can mirror move you at times). Outspeeding drowzee is just not relevant enough. Marowak to E. Same story with machamp, it has eq but speed hurts, slide from ape is ok enough for gastly and it has tbolt to 3HKO seadra. Flareon to E because Ninetales and Magmar are just better. Wak/Champ/Flar don't have a good enough niche to be used over what overall outlcasses them, you won't use them because they're too inconsistent

    Still going for a Tortle to C, not a lot worse than seaking for what you expect a water to do (or at least not worse enough to be 2 ranks below), stoss is a good way to avoid playing for freeze war and to get threatening stuff in quickly on the rest (trode/dnair/gastly/drowzee)

    Let's wait a bit, but Electrode COULD be C material. Weepinbell needs more testing, Enigami wants to explore Parasect, it can depend on that
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
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  10. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Another ranking update! Mostly just cleanup of lower ranks.

    Wartortle: D > C - Not much opposition to this, so I'm bringing it up. I'd figured after Seadra's hype faded that Wartortle would have trouble competing with Seaking for a second Water, but opinion seems to be Wartortle's still decent enough to consider.
    Parasect: E > D - From my testing so far it's definitely usable, and I think is closer to C or low B, but for now I'm just gonna get it out of E.
    Flareon: D > E - Despite its power, just too weak and slow. (That'll probably flip so hard once 6U comes around)
    Machamp: D > E - Ditto for the Champ.
    Marowak: D > E - Marowak's actually not even that great at switching into Drowzee, as it can fail to 2HKO, which means it can lose to Drowzee even if it switches into Thunder Wave if Marowak suffers a Special drop from a following Psychic, so if you're looking for something to handle Drowzee, you're better off with something that can stomach Psychics like Seaking or Ninetales, your own Drowzee, or Parasect if sleep is available. Graveler atleast walls Pidgeot and helps absorb Wrap/Hyper Beam, and can explode on things too.

    Edit: A couple minor changes were made and don't deserve their own post.

    Ponyta: F > E - It's still bad especially while Ninetales is available, but on ToxicWrap spam this can do some crazy cheezing.
    Ivysaur: F > Unranked - The only thing it has is speed, which is only relevant against the D ranked Weepinbell and E ranked Machamp. Not even worth listing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
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  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Wag / Plume down to B, Electrode up to C

    Basically every team =

    Dragonair
    Seadra
    Gastly
    Drowzee
    Seaking / Wartortle (usually)
    Filler (Wag / Plume / Snake / Tops / Swagmar / Tales / Bird / Ape / Trode / Whatever Else you want)

    Teams aren't umm very creative in this meta and by that I mean you've practically got less creativity here than in any other RBY meta i've played (RBY LC UU doesn't count)
     
  12. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Supporting this if Seaking goes to A. On a different note Parasect seems pretty decent and needs more exploration, meaning weepinbell can go down in E/F notably due to the psychic weakness
     
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  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Supporting Seaking back up to A.

    Also actually Electrode is so stupid it should be at least B, maybe it's a candidate for A. Plume isn't easy to fit because of how overly restrictive teambuilding is, and even then plume isn't too hard to chip. It provides a gastly response and nothing wants to switch into it. Primeape is similar but its weak to psychic (so it cant switch into gastly and fears drowzee more) but on the flipside it's harder to intentionally wall (ok you can run plume and gastly but both can be chipped or haxed really easily)

    Supporting bell down to E/F.

    Magneton is a candidate for D but should remain in E for now. The meta is fairly kind to it rn though.
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Wow this metagame evolves really fast
     
  15. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Ranking updates:
    Seaking: B > A
    Poliwag: A > B
    Vileplume: A > B
    Electrode: D > C
    Weepinbell: D > E

    Things to discuss:
    Ninetales: B > A
    Parasect: D > C
    Edit: Also, Drowzee: A > S
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Imo:
    Drowzee -> S

    Then the lot that's hard to sort out from A through to D:
    Seaking, Arbok, Kabutops, Magmar, Ninetales, Poliwag, Vileplume, Electrode, Pidgeot, Primeape, Wartortle, Graveler, Lickitung, Parasect

    I guess it comes down to: how do you fill the remaining 2 slots on your team and why.

    Also, a bit of a breakdown:
    'Second Waters': Seaking / Wartortle
    Checked by Gastly: Kabutops, Pidgeot, Vileplume, non-SD Parasect, Primeape
    Checks Gastly: Ninetales, Electrode, Lickitung, SD Parasect, Graveler
    Checks / Walls Electrode: Vileplume, Electrode, Graveler, Parasect, Lickitung
    Additional Sleepers: Poliwag / Vileplume / Parasect [note: often means you can run Rest Drowzee which is even better, and gives you the option to consider rest+explosion gastly rather than choosing between one or the other]
    Leads: Magmar, Ninetales, Poliwag, Electrode (can be run as non-lead too), Primeape. Also Seadra / Gastly / Drowzee can be run as leads.

    But yeah I can't remember the logic behind 'requiring' a second water type as the 5th slot on a team. If someone can explain the reasoning that might simplify things a bit. Otherwise yeah teambuilding is a limited but complex mess of S4 / usually 2nd water / filler
     
  17. terpnation

    terpnation Member

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    Isn't the reason for a second water to sponge Seadra's attacks and attempt freeze the opposing Seadra without risking your own?
     
  18. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Yeah though I guess it's more like, it's an insurance against your own seadra getting frozen
     
  19. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Okay, so after some more tests, a lot of theory moning, and a long skype conversation, enigami, da, and myself came down to some sort of conclusions who seems alright for the rankings:

    S = Dragonair / Drowzee / Gastly / Seadra
    A = Ninetales / Seaking
    B = Arbok / Electrode / Magmar / Poliwag / Vileplume / Wartortle
    C = Graveler / Lickitung / Parasect / Primeape
    D = Kabutops / Pidgeot

    Explanations:

    S = Top 3 stays there, Drowzee is added because there isn't any good reason not to use it really. Everything takes a lot of damage from its Psychics except... opposite Drowzee. It spreads both status, can run rest on some teams, is good early, mid, and end game. It definitely has what it takes to be on 100% of teams, and it should be

    A = Seaking is here because even though it's not directly threatening, it's one of the most consistent mons. A lot of the other pokemon of the tier can sometimes lack a good match-up, a situation to get in, flexibility... Seaking can deal with a handful of situations, supporting your seadra and dealing damage to a whole bunch of pokemon thanks to Agility, it's the best mon to go double water etc... A thing to keep in mind is that there's a quite huge gap between S ranks and the rest, because most of the mons don't feel consistent. Seaking does.
    Ninetales feels A worthy, because even if a couple of days ago we saw a lot of double water teams, it started to feel problematic due to mons like Electrode. You need to be able to check Electrode in your teams, which means using Vileplume/Parasect/Electrode/Graveler in your team. Less double water and more grass types makes the meta more opened to Tales, and btw it can switch into electrode decently, and into gastly comfortably. It also has some nice tools like Fire Spin and Confuse Ray to deal with a handful of situations. It feels more consistent than other mons

    B = No changes for Arbok (tough to get in, but supports dnair very well), magmar (seems below Ninetales but has some nice advantages mainly psychic and physical power), poliwag (good with less double water), vileplume (.). Electrode raises to B because it has the potential to be very dangerous if unchecked, it's threatening to a lot of the tier, whether it's by damage or status. It can actually switch into Dragonair, and is only cockblocked by Graveler. You run a check to it on every team otherwise it can destroy it. It's also the only pokemon capable of checking both Seadra and Electrode. Wartortle raises to B. It's less consistent than Seaking (bulk/speed/agility) but Seismic Toss is an interesting move. The meta can be about freeze wars between seadras if you want to, or you can force seadra to rest to get in stuff (mons that set ups, or anything that deal damage in a particular situation). Also, being two ranks Seaking isn't right. It's less consistent, but not THAT less consistent.

    C = No changes for Primeape (a bit difficult to teambuild around, needs a lot of conditions to work well, and predictions). Lickitung gets up, it doesn't rly have consistent counters, sleeping seadra is an easy way to get it in, it can switch into some stuff once. It can be a threatening mon, but it needs support and set up. Seems C worthy.
    Parasect gives some good competition to Vileplume, notably on the offensive side. With access to SD and Growth, you can use it in a whole bunch of ways. it checks gastly compared to vileplume, with the possibility to paralyse it, beats vileplume etc It's a pretty good mon, it needs support because it's quite slow, but it provides some too.
    Graveler was overlooked because of the water spam, but now Trode is in the picture. You have the electric ? You have the ground, it's how rby works after all. Compared to grass types, it actually hurts stuff on the switch, because nothing rly switches into it (parasect is ok but still 2HKOd by rslide). It also cockblocks other stuff like gastly (who considers mega drain on some grav weak teams) and pidgeot. Forces primeape to use submission and to drop a move... It has an influence on the meta, therefore C

    D = Pidgeot, Gastly is everywhere, it can only hit it with Wing attack, which is poor. It's a pretty poor mon in general, graveler sees usage now, electrode too, the meta is v hostile to it overall. Kabutops seems to need too much support now. More and more mega drains, not a good match-up vs gastly (can only surf it on the switch which is prediction reliant), not a good match-up vs other waters, setting up is tough because gastly's here anyway, it just needs too much support.
     
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  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Agreeing with all of that.

    It's possible some E ranks might move up to D but otherwise that's a very accurate picture for now and it'll take some more serious shifts for that to change, but that's definitely possible (look how much it changed the past few days).
     

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