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RBY 5U Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, May 11, 2016.

  1. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Hi,

    For Muk and Weezing there's the physical attack to take into account, but I don't think they've been tested that much. The tier is still "WIP"

    Magneton and Flareon are both slow, Magneton is cockblocked by Graveler (and can't boom whereas Electrode can) and Flareon has troubles too, unlike Magmar who has Psychic. Ninetales outspeeds most of the stuff and can lead better.

    Graveler is quite a lot better than Rhyhorn, and Sanshrew has Swords Dance, Rhyhorn doesn't.

    Could probably go way deeper into details but overall that's why
     
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  2. DDX2

    DDX2 Member

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    Graveler over Rhyhorn I understand completely, I just meant over Sandshrew, but thanks for the added info on the rest.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    As a side-note, Muk / Weezing are actually viable in one of the above tiers (RBY 3U) although far from good enough to be a part of the tier. Interesting Pokémon there however.
     
  4. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    In regards to Flareon, speed is the biggest factor here. It's slower than all the Waters as well as unboosted Dragonair. Psychic is just the icing on the cake, helping Magmar further against Waters with Special-drops and doing more than scratch damage to Kabutops.

    If Magneton were only blocked by Graveler, it'd be a lot better than it is. Magneton would atleast get a break now and then whenever Graveler explodes. The problem is the fact Marowak (edit: there's also Dragonair too) and Vileplume (the tier's ubiquitous status mon) exist, sometimes on the same team, and that they take scratch damage from Magneton's pitifully weak physical attacks and are immune to its STAB/resist with relatively high special respectively. Ironically, Pikachu is the best Electric-type in 5U not just for Surf, but also Seismic Toss which hits Vileplume harder than anything Magneton or Electrode can muster (outside of Electrode exploding, or Magneton getting lucky with constant critical hits).

    As further explanation for the reason why Sandshrew gets ranked while Rhyhorn doesn't, is that Sandshrew has something it can do that Marowak, Graveler and Rhyhorn can't (Swords Dance), and literally everything Rhyhorn can do Graveler does better. So that means while you might consider Sandshrew on a team to do something you couldn't with the other Ground-types, you wouldn't ever consider Rhyhorn when Graveler is directly superior. However, there are some cases where the outclassed Pokemon is still viable because they are a near duplicate of a dominant Pokemon, such as Clefable + Wigglytuff in 3U, Nidoking + Nidoqueen in 4U, and possibly Dragonair + Dratini in 5U. But with Graveler being a mediocre pick as it is, doubling up with a Rhyhorn is just a bad idea. And as terrible an idea as it is, I'd even consider Graveler + Geodude before Rhyhorn just for the explosion spam.

    Edit: Moved Lickitung from Unranked to E.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
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  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    The Muk/Weezing thing is interesting, part of the reason little testing has been done is that they're just not all that good despite packing decent explosions. Probably the main issue as I see it is that Weezing's extra special isn't all that useful since it just isn't all that important for how you use them imo. Although they get some nice coverage, it's still relatively easy to work around and most of the time you prefer to use physical attacks anyway. Also Muk has Acid Armor and Mega Drain (useful vs Grounds) and Body Slam, whereas Weezing has no other options available to it iirc

    Also fwiw I no longer think Wag is the best lead. I think the way the meta's developed there are too many faster physical attackers in the lead position and teams always have Seadra and/or Seaking to stop Wag if it does get going. However I think it could use more testing outside the lead position.
     
  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Rankings update:

    Beedrill: Unranked > D
    Electrode: D > E
    Magmar: A > B
    Pikachu: C > D
    Primeape: B > C
     
  7. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Added Wartortle and moved Tentacool from F to the potentially viable Unranked section.

    Tentacool's niche: Outspeeding Seaking, SD + Wrap, sufficient Special bulk to wall Seadra and Seaking if they don't have physical attacks, and one of the strongest attacks in the tier (Hydro Pump from 100 Special). It was put in F since I'd expected physical attacks to be common on Seadra and Seaking limiting its value as a Water-type, but since sets like STAB/Ice coverage/something besides a physical attack/Rest seems to be quite common Tentacool could prove to be a somewhat viable pick now.

    Wartortle's niche: Sufficient bulk to wall Seadra and Seaking, Counter to punish the use of Normal-type attacks (especially from Waters and Magmar), and Seismic Toss for reliably breaking Substitute and forcing Seadra/Seaking into Rest and also comes with a handy 32 PP. The only downside is Wartortle can be broken with a critical hit Hydro Pump from Seadra while Resting, but considering Hydro Pump's 8 PP and 80% accuracy, that shouldn't be too much of a worry. The most important thing though is I figured out Seaking can 3HKO Seadra and other Seaking with Tail Whip + Double-Edge allowing it to break through them. Substitute may block Tail Whip, but with an Agility boost it can hit before Sub goes up, or stall the opponent out like normal until they Rest and then hit while they're asleep and can't use Substitute. Wartortle however gets Withdraw (64 PP), which means it can stall out Tail Whip (48 PP) Seaking possibly making Wartortle its only true counter outside of garbagemons Magneton and Electrode.

    Kabutops is also still stuck in unranked, we need to get some testing on it so we can find a rank for it at some point here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  8. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    New ranking updates:

    Drowzee: B > A - For the reasons mentioned in the discussion thread.
    Wartortle: Unranked > B - For the reasons mentioned in the discussion thread.
    Kabutops: Unranked > B - Kabutops is a really scary SD user. Slash is a very powerful attack without needing any setup, and if it gets a free turn to set up it can cause a ton of damage.
    Beedrill: D > E - See above, Beedrill's niche as SD user is heavily encroached.

    Edit: Also moved Arbok D > C
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I was gonna make a massive post about shifting the whole rankings around, but I changed my mind after my set against Eni. Despite being ranked, I really think Tops could be a big deal and I'm trying to get a bit more familiar with it, so I ran some calcs on its +2 HBeam, here they are

    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Seadra: 245-289 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Dragonair: 309-364 (95 - 112%) -- 71.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Vileplume: 263-310 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Drowzee: 375-441 (116 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Poliwag: 400-471 (141.3 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Seaking: 309-364 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO
    Gastly and Kabutops check it- hooray!
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Magmar: 332-391 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 97.4% chance to OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Ninetales: 285-335 (81.6 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Pidgeot: 285-335 (77.2 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Wartortle: 275-324 (85.6 - 100.9%) -- 7.7% chance to OHKO
    Grav can absorb a HBeam, but is OHKO'd if you screw up and eat a Surf
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Machamp: 275-324 (71.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Marowak: 223-263 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Muk: 285-335 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Primeape: 326-384 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO
    +2 Kabutops Hyper Beam vs. Weezing: 211-248 (63.3 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Holy hell have we overlooked Kabutops. I admit it's mostly theorymon, but it really doesn't take much for Kabutops to be in a position to OHKO everything in its path. Its defining flaw is difficulty in finding an opening, so let's have a think of some opportunities it might encounter. It can't switch directly into anything except Pidgeot so that's nice, but in addition to all of the usual means of getting a free switch (sac, predicting a switch) wrap is really bloody good in this tier- Dragonair and Ninetales both make excellent use of it, but other users are available, Arbok and Weepinbell spring to mind. It can set up against opposing Water types, with Seadra being the only one capable of 2HKOing, also they all run Rest which is too easy for Tops. Fire types are a comfortable setup opportunity, since burns are too unreliable and negated by SD anyway. Surf is pretty much useless except against Gast/Grav/Wak, maybe it can create an opening against Grav though since it achieves an OHKO there (note that both Grounds only 2HKO Tops, so if you really want to you could SD regardless of whether they're likely to switch).

    This isn't suggesting a ranking or anything, but damn we need to test Kabu more

    Also imo Arbok could be C. I definitely think it's more usable than everything else in D
     
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  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Yeah, we should test Kabutops more before ranking it, but I think it definitely belongs to 5U. Anyway, I think Gastly really is a staple in this tier and this would eventually come out in case we play more.
    (Kabutops' Surf is a 75% to 3HKO Gastly, leaving out CHs, Gastly 2HKOs).

    About belonging to 5U, there are more complicated cases: Arbok is decent at first glance, but it's disappointing (no stab) when it's not using Wrap on slower opponents - this includes Seadra...

    Are we including everything B and higher, get to discuss C? I think many things don't see play at all, Machamp looks pretty obvious just to mention one.
    Decinding to stop at 6U or 7U, or just go as far as we want could have an impact too.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    The typical position is all of B and above is 5U, everything in C is discussed or something. Anything that looks out of place you just say. I mean this meta might well have a suspect test but anyhow it's up to all of you to determine when the tier is well enough understood to have accurate enough viability rankings and be able to determine what makes up the tier.
     
  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I think we need to play it more because it's very un-familiar for the way it works and we never used any of those pokemon before.
    I still don't get it, and I think I'll make a bigger effort once I'll be done with the tournaments I'm still in (procrastinating big time).
     
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  13. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Ranking update:

    Gastly: B > A - Our 5U players think it should be moved up, and I don't see any reason why not, especially with Dragonair being as potent as it is and Kabutops emerging as a big threat.
     
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  14. Peef Rimgar

    Peef Rimgar True love Member

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    Aight here's a few different noms:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    C ---> D

    Simply put, ground types have a very hard time finding a place in 5U. The mandatory double water + Vileplume on every team render these mons just about obsolete in any high level game. Lot of given up free turns, lot of losses.

    [​IMG]
    B ---> C

    This thing is a strong 4th (technically 5th but Kabutops plays a lil differently from the other waters so I wont lump it in) choice for a team. It's niche of pressuring the other waters really isn't that worthwile, especially since Seadra itself can do that, arguably better. Enigami may have a better time making this compelling than I, but it's definitely worth consideration.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Trade Places (Pikachu ---> E, Electrode ---> D)

    This is due to a few important factors. For one, Pikachu's entire niche is that of big brother Raichu's in higher tiers, to be able to nail Ground types (specifically Ground/Rocks) with a super effective Surf, thus allowing paralysis mindgames to take place. The problem with that in this tier, however, is that ground types are infinitely more easily pressured by the ever present and practically mandatory waters and Vileplume. What makes Electrode directly better, though, is access to explosion which allows it to threaten Dragonair and Vileplume, feats Pikachu can't dream of.
     
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  15. Peef Rimgar

    Peef Rimgar True love Member

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    Did I just post here earlier? Maybe, but I have a point. I've spent a lot of time looking at this list and I just can't get over the unreal gap there is in between C and B rank. Bar Primeape, I've barely even considered (never actually found a good reason to be) using one of the current C rank mons myself (I do see they have niches, just not terribly practical ones). 5U is a fairly centralized metagame, and the VR I am proposing accounts for that just a bit better:
    S Rank

    These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfill a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

    [​IMG] Dragonair
    [​IMG] Seadra


    A Rank

    These Pokémon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Drowzee
    [​IMG] Gastly
    [​IMG] Poliwag
    [​IMG] Vileplume (it's nuts effective at its role but it can be overwhelmed pretty easily given literally all of S-B has some way to hit it for SE damage, doesn't stand out as much as the S ranks remaining imo. I can live with our without this one, just an idea)

    B Rank

    These Pokémon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokémon, reducing their usefulness.

    [​IMG] Kabutops
    [​IMG] Magmar
    [​IMG] Ninetales
    [​IMG] Seaking


    C Rank

    These Pokémon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokémon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

    [​IMG] Pidgeot (maybe B still, tests have proved inconclusive)
    [​IMG] Primeape (Perhaps D?)
    [​IMG] Wartortle

    D Rank

    These Pokémon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.


    [​IMG] Arbok
    [​IMG] Electrode
    [​IMG] Graveler
    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Marowak
    [​IMG] Muk
    I'm sure D could use a few more tweaks, but would anyone be opposed to this? Seems like a much more accurate power balance between ranks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Main issue I have is that Kabutops really deserves at least B. It seriously messes shit up if given an opening and it's not as though it can't be a hit and run attacker if need be. As far as setup sweepers in RBY go, this is far from the worst environment for it, with wrap support and Resting Waters everywhere
     
  17. Peef Rimgar

    Peef Rimgar True love Member

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    That's another one I meant to put a note by, mustve just overlooked

    e: went ahead and put it in B due to popular demand
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  18. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I wanted to wait until the end of the major league to post some suggestions but I feel like doing it rn:

    Gastly to S, like honestly I would never see myself build a team without it, it's basically the pokemon who allows Dragonair to stay unbanned. I think you pretty much have to run gastly in 5U, there's almost nothing that switches into it besides Drowzee, it hits hard, sleeps, booms, is fast, and it cockblocks a top 2 mon. I think it's simply one of the best mons in the tier

    Wartortle to C, why is it so high when you have access to seaking and wag as second waters ? It's a third class choice. Not even sure if it should be 5U

    Graveler and marowak to D, look at the mons above them, what do they switch into ? Also they're too slow has are too difficult to get in, electrics don't exist, and vileplume is fine to check those

    Now these are questions, not suggestions:

    Why use machamp when you have primeape ? speed seems too important, maybe machamp should drop.
    Muk and Arbok (i'm dumb as shit because i didn't realise it had eq when i wrote this post) when Gastly is in every team ? Meh, should they drop too ? It might end up with an empty c rank and a messy d rank but it's how 4U's viab kinda are too. It really doesn't feel like they should even be in question when asking if they should be 5u or not.

    The rest above C is I think fine
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  19. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    What does Gastly have to do with Arbok's viability though? Arbok speed ties and has a 66% chance to OHKO with Earthquake, while Gastly only 2HKOs back. I'm not sure on dropping Arbok so I think I'll leave it at C for the moment.

    Finally got around to updating the rest though.

    Gastly: A > S - From the way 5U is looking, it does seem like Gastly is indeed mandatory on teams as both a Dragonair and Kabutops answer.

    Vileplume: S > A - Not only does it get overwhelmed as Peef stated, but Gastly and Drowzee gaining in viability and usage doesn't help either as they both threaten heavily Vileplume and also supply status which reduces Vileplume's utility value.

    Seaking: A > B - Can't think of much more to say other than it feels more accurate, just doesn't seem to have the impact something on A should have.

    Wartortle: B > D - I don't think a drop to C is enough. Wartortle seemed better when Seadra appeared to be the most important Pokemon to deal with, which Wartortle could pressure with Seismic Toss to break through Substitutes and force it into Rest quickly. At this point I believe Wartortle's much more of a niche choice. To 6U it goes.

    Graveler: C > D - Slow, a lack of Electrics to wall, Vileplume switches in fairly well, weak to common Waters of which there often are more than one on a team, and doesn't do much defensively outside of blocking Pidgeot (which isn't exactly a top threat)

    Machamp: C > D - Primeape is faster, Psychic attacks are still a thing, and the most powerful attackers generally hit Machamp's lesser Special bulk.

    Marowak: C > D - Slow, a lack of Electrics to wall, Vileplume switches in fairly well, weak to common Waters of which there often are more than one on a team,and doesn't do much defensively outside of barely being capable of switching into and beating Drowzee (assuming no crit or Spc drop).

    Pikachu: D > E - A lack of Grounds means a lack of purpose for Pika.

    Electrode: E > D - A lack of Grounds (particularly Graveler) means it's attacks aren't entirely blocked, and is a bit more free to do some damage with Explosion.

    Edit: Also, has anyone tested Leech Life Parasect yet? On paper it looks not completely terrible, though I'm not completely sure what the optimum set would be (maybe Spore / Mega Drain / Leech Life / SD or Stun Spore?). SD Leech Life Parasect can beat Gastly 1v1, preys on Vileplume and helps it against Drowzee, and a lack of Poison-typing means it can switch directly into Gastly to inflict status. On the downside, compared to Vileplume it loses some bulk, the speed advantage against Drowzee, and pretty much throws away any hope of surviving a Fire-type attack, but considering Gastlys, Vileplumes and Drowzees are everywhere and Poliwags usually run Water/Psychic coverage, I could see Parasect being a workable niche choice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
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  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    On the note of parasect, you could also consider beedrill maybe?

    If someone gets beedrill to work we must get Beedrill Lord Lutra to play 5U.
     

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