1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Pokemon Perfect, Guest!

    Our motto is Pokémon Practice makes Pokémon Perfect. We are a competitive-battling community that encourages the development of players and their ideas, and fosters positive and respectful attitudes. We love Collaboration (working together), Competition (getting stronger), and Communication (being informed).

    You are free to post everywhere, unless the thread explicitly states otherwise (usually in the case of a vote), and there are no private forums whatsoever. We just require you to not make multiple accounts. Let us greet you by posting a thread in the Introduce Yourself! forum.

  3. Tiers

    View Introduction to Tiers if you don't know what tiers are. Pokémon Perfect tiers are named differently to those on Smogon. A numeral followed by the letter U, e.g. 1U, 2U, 3U, represents a main tier on Pokémon Perfect – the '1' of '1U' representing the tier level. For a tier to be a main tier, it must be balanced (nothing is too powerful and game-breaking) and diverse enough (include a variety of Pokémon and strategies). A numeral followed by the letter P, e.g. 1P, 2P, 3P contain all Pokémon that are deemed overpowered in the respective 1U, 2U, 3U tiers. The 1st tier level allows Pokémon that are banned in the 2nd level, and this process continues down. Read the tier list, and in-depth explanations of the tiers naming system and tiering system. Also check out our analyses for all tiers.

  4. Tournaments

    RBY 1U Seasons and its master tournaments are responsible for starting up the community, and tournaments continue to play a big role in maintaining interest in the forums. Signups Open gives you a list of tournaments you can join, and Ongoing lists tournaments that you might want to follow. Additionally, you can tap to find out approximate Schedules for tournaments.

    For historical threads, check out Signups Closed, Finished tournaments and Results. We also have Nominations, Voting and Event threads for exhibitions – past and present.

RBY 4U (Under3U) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    673
    I actually hadn't thought about the shift away from Ice coverage, that does reduce how hostile the meta is to those two. Graveler is probably the best possible switch-in to standard Porygon once it's paralyzed (3HKOs with Earthquake, 4HKO'd by Psychic and immune to TWave), and has a decent chance to OHKO straight up with Explosion. And with better opportunities for Dragonair, I could see them rising to E Rank atleast. I'll need to give them some tests later.
     
    Lusch likes this.
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    COMPLETE MADMAN

    also interesting points about graveler and dragonair...
     
  3. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    Is this metagame any fun? Been playing RBY OU/1U and wanted to give the lower tiers a chance.
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    Yeah definitely dude, come check it out. My favourite lower tier personally though is RBY 3U. But I've just built a ton for this, and it's actually a pretty intense meta full of mindgames. A bit less teambuilding variety than 3U (honestly, even less than 1U maybe?) but battling is pretty great in it
     
    supercube64 likes this.
  5. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    896
    Once and for all, we've been enjoying this tier despite recognizing it's centralized and luck based.
    Having Nidoking banned at this point is only a matter of "can we have a better tier or not?", that we won't know until we actually try it.
    We need to play games, lots of them so that it looks obvious to make real time things instead of tournament games.

    Omastar, Blastoise, and maybe Slowpoke as well....

    TBH I do oppose, what is Diglett doing? It's RNG based even vs Nidoking, as it needs a crit or it's OHKO'd with a 50-50 roll...
    And Arcanine, I'd put it into C...
    About Scyther and Staryu, I'm kinda sorry, but usage stats justify that.
    Idk about Dragonair and Gravler, D is outside of 4U nonetheless, so basically I only oppose to Diglett and Arcanine.
     
  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    673
    Uh, why are you taking issue with Diglett NOW? You had a whole week to voice your opposition to it moving to D Rank.

    It's a revenge killer that can switch into Abra's Thunder Wave and force it out, and if Tangela isn't present/eliminated and Blastoise is asleep/weakened it can be very difficult to switch into. Most notably its the only noteworthy mon with speed over 95 that isn't walled hard by Omastar. And vs. Nidoking, since Diglett moves first and has a 50/50 chance of surviving Earthquake, it has the advantage because King does not want to risk dying, or in its best case losing half of its health. I've used it a number of times, and feel its better than everything in E except maybe Electrode, which might end up D rank itself.
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  7. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    598
    The thing with Diglett is that you (Enigami) use it pretty well. That means you predict a ton to switch it in safely. Once u have successfully predicted a switch to something that does not wanna stay in on Digglet, switching into it is kinda hard, since even Blastoise cannot do that too comfartably, so the only thing there really is is Tangela.
    Playing that strategy (predicting the right switch to pressure with Diglett, at best multiple times) is somewhat risky, since one mispredict spells (or almost spells) death to Diglett since it is frail as fuck. In addition to that it competes with Nidoking for a slot (I know u used both, but still).
    I'm not an expert on rank descriptions so make of that what you will but that's how Diglett works...
     
  8. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    896
    Sorry man, didn't notice!
    I think it's plain gimmicky (that's good part of why I didn't see it coming): 5HKO on Blastoise, 4HKOs on Slowpoke/Porygon (and possibly Venomoth)... it basically hopes for crits and predictions (plus Porygon not carrying Blizzard).
    Should see it in action to understand how it works in the big picture, at the end of the day it has good matchups too.
     
  9. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    673
    Oh, that is true, I probably am coloring its viability a bit by my use of it. Gotta remember to think of viability in terms of what new players should be using. I think I'll move it back to E unless anyone objects, its still the best thing there in my opinion but I don't think I'd want new players trying to make it work compared to everything in D.
     
  10. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    673
    Ranking Update
    B+/B- merged into B
    Rapidash - A > B
    Arcanine - B- > C
    Nidoqueen - B- > C
    Scyther - B- > C
    Staryu - B- > C
    Poliwag - C > D
    Diglett - D > E
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    Well both a good and a weaker player's perspectives are relevant here. Diglett in D is possible.

    And ok so marco wants a suspect test, does anyone else? We need to talk about how to do it too. If marco's the only person who still wants a suspect then we probably won't do it, it's a lot of work and I want at least a couple of people to want it before we figure out how to do it. ;~;
     
  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    896
    That looks like a "let's gather some people and play some games, then we'll see what to do". All we know about that potential tier comes from a game between Lusch and me, where he didn't even bother to use Blastoise!
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    I'm just saying is that if at least 2 people think that we should see what a Nidoking-less meta looks like, then we should put in some time and effort to plan a proper suspect test, and suspect Nidoking.
     
  14. supercube64

    supercube64 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    16
    After only playing a few matches. I can definitely say without a doubt that Nidoking is insanely good. Not sure however if he warrants a suspect test. I'm only a new player, so I wont give my opinion on the matter.
     
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    I feel like Pidgeot's a little out of place in E, it hits really hard with STAB normal attacks. Also you can switch into Nidoking's EQ and do 40% with Mirror Move which is cute.. anyhow when Oma's not around it hits hard and does a similar job to Nidoking, but switches into ground moves instead of electric. Also it outspeeds Abra which is sick.

    Venomoth
    - Sleep Powder
    - Stun Spore
    - Psychic
    - Double-Edge

    Abra
    - Psychic
    - Seismic Toss
    - Thunder Wave
    - Counter

    Pidgeot
    - Hyper Beam
    - Double-Edge
    - Mirror Move
    - Agility

    Porygon
    - Psychic
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave
    - Thunderbolt

    Omastar
    - Blizzard
    - Hydro Pump
    - Body Slam
    - Seismic Toss

    Nidoking
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - Substitute
    I do wonder if maybe Oma's a better lead on this team.

    Anyway I think E is too low for it, it's at least as viable as the rest of D. Maybe even a candidate for C.

    --

    Anyone tested Dragonair yet?
     
  16. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    673
    Why would you use Pidgeot over Scyther though?

    Scyther Slash vs. Nidoking on a critical hit: 123-145 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Scyther Hyper Beam vs. Nidoking: 136-160 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Pidgeot Double-Edge vs. Nidoking: 110-130 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- 30.7% chance to 3HKO
    Pidgeot Hyper Beam vs. Nidoking: 165-195 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 36% chance to 2HKO

    Pidgeot's problem isn't that it's bad, it's that Scyther pretty much does the same thing except with more speed and with Swords Dance. Pidgeot has a stronger unboosted Hyper Beam, but is that enough for it? Is there anything in particular you've found that'd make you want to run Pidgeot over Scyther?
     
  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    No fire weakness helps, as well as better special bulk; nido can't fire off quite as strong attacks versus you at least. Also Mirror move eq vs nidoking does more than scyther's slash.

    So I guess the answer is:
    1 No Fire weakness
    2 Better special bulk
    3 Cannot be paralyzed by Body Slam [vaguely relevant vs waters]
    4 Stronger unboosted Hyper Beam
    5 Mirror Move - can abuse vs Nidoking and maybe Venomoth [switch in on a psychic?]

    Is that enough for D? How often are you able to actually get an SD boost with Scyther anyway?
     
  18. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    598
    I have used Dragonair and pretty much wrote about it a few posts back. Not much to say, it is an AgiliWrapper, I think we know what that means. It also finds set up opportunities vs sleeping/resting/frozen opponents that definitely appear in this tier reasonably often. Ice attacks are rare, which is the only weakness it has and rarely anyhing in this tier has the sheer force to 2HKO with neutral hits (Nidoking does not 2HKO with EQ). BlizzBolt deals damage... (I prefer Blizzard>Fire Blast, but if one wants to hit Moth instead of Nido one can switch those, but Moth goes down faster to Wrap...)
    In addition one can slap Toxic on randon stuff that does not need its 4th moveslot so that Dragonair needs to hit less Wraps when sweeping, but that's rather unimportant and tricky due to blocking other status ailments that might be more useful in general.
     
    Disaster Area likes this.
  19. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    I think Electrode should go up to D rank. Whilst it's inconsistent, if you manage to use it successfully it's a really potent threat. Obviously Nidoking is a huge roadblock but that's a part of how you use it. I definitely think it belongs with at least Muk, Magneton, and the other members of D.

    It has some echoes of dnite in 1U even, insofar as in some ways it effectively turns the game into a roll of the dice, in this case whether you time an explosion correctly or not rather than whether you miss wrap or not. Whilst I don't think it's quite as new-player-destroying as dnite can be it does give you a better shot at beating a significantly better player than using a regular team, I think.
     
    supercube64 likes this.
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    Messages:
    5,616
    Likes Received:
    2,511
    Lusch likes this.

Share This Page