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RBY 4U (Under3U) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Added Omastar in C Rank (lead), DA brought it up in the lead thread and looks to pretty much perform the same as Blastoise, losing to Wag/Venomoth, 2HKOing Abra, and countering lead Fires even harder while also preventing Porygon from being able to switch in (Hydro Pump 2HKOs). Blastoise handles Abra better, 2HKOing with Body Slam which can also paralyze whereas Omastar needs to use the inaccurate Hydro Pump, but Omastar makes up for it somewhat by being 4HKO'd by Psychic instead of having a chance at being 3HKO'd.
     
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  2. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Some in-bed thoughts: supporting B- Nidoqueen for a bunch of reasons: helps nidoking by costing precious anti nidoking ressources, can wallbreak, and the differences notably speed aren't that horrible since staryu is uncommon and blastoise easily manageable. The only downfall i see is you have to run a very offensive team but it's not even a real downfall when you look at the tier tbh, i can elaborate on that but generally speaking I think Nidoqueen is a strong enough pokemon to belong to 4U even if we don't see it often. Wiggy was voted 3U, and 4U double nido is stronger than 3U clefwigg (I think)

    questionning scyther, shouldn't in drop in B- ? I feel ridiculous asking that since it changes close to nothing but it's a way to talk about it, I haven't faced one in a while, but i remember it being common in the beginning of the tier. With the "rise" of oma, the common fires etc + the fact that's it not totally easy to fit in a team without stacking general weaknesses i think it slightly below tangela and abra in terms of rankings. This is more about the mon than the rank. I'm really in the school of though that usage says it all

    suggesting arcanine to B-, it would mean mono c rank which is really weird but at some point i was thinking about rapidash and I realised i rarely used fspin, so I decided to replace it by arcanine in all my teams and I think I prefer the dog over the horse. Stats are really better, fthrower's reliability is an appeal, speed isn't a lot relevant, and If Rapidash is in A, having arcanine two ranks below is imo too harsh. Also, I think Arcanine belongs to 4U too. What do you guys think ? could mean a D rank Ninetales (which I maybe was a bit harsh with but I honestly think it's bad). Mono C rank really does bother me though, dunno if it should. It's just so hard to rank things in a tier where only a handful of pokemon work

    these are just suggestions that i hope lead to more disscusion :D
     
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  3. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I can see all 3 mons fitting in B-. Scyther's lack of usage I think might be partly because the Violet server still thinks it belongs to 3U for some reason and Kristoph hasn't fixed it.
     
  4. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Looking at it more closely, Peasounay, I think speaking for myself I might have overlooked Arcanine completely. Looking at each stat individually and comparing the two fire types, one sees that only speed is better on Rapidash's end. But since Canine itself has 95 speed which is enough in this tier to outpace everything important, makes this stat advantage rather negligible. Whereas on the other hand Canine has a slightly better attack (exactly the same as Snorlax compared to Tauros, to have a better understanding) and a lot more bulk overall due to huge HP and silghtly better defense and equal special. This is quite significant.
    In short the better stats might even make up for the lack of Fire Spin compared to Rapidash completely, and maybe we should consider ranking them in one rank together because of it (maybe B+?). [I myself need to test Arcanine first, but I think those might be realistic results]
    Regarding Scyther and Nidoqueen, I agree with B- (even though Queen in C does not bother me either, but I would much rather use Queen than wag, so...)

    Edit: Fire Spin is a thing though and thus I think (maybe it changes when i play Arcanine more...) Rapidash >= Arcanine
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2016
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  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    hmm Scyther and Queen in my mind are same level of viability- both significant threats but neither of them I naturally include on a team. So I guess that as long as we're doing B- they can both go there.

    I still think Fire Spin is a big deal, so imo Arca is fine in C (I'd still vote it 4U fwiw).

    Could Staryu drop even further? I just don't think it's very useful and there is a LOT of competition among water types. Its poor physical defense limits it against a lot of the things water types would like to take on (Nido, fire types) and it is badly crippled by paralysis. Its good matchups basically consist of other water types, and even then things like Poke (TWave) and Toise (Body Slam) pose problems (not to mention that Pory and stuff do that better)
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think the dog is better than the horse. One thing we should discuss with Fire Spin is: what targets are you using it versus? I think the general answer is stuff that doesn't threaten with powerful attacks, just status, either sleep or stun. That and it provides emergency lategame potential. Sort of a summary of the matchups:

    Nidoking / queen - too risky
    Porygon - Fire Spin is nice
    Abra, Venomoth, Tang, Scyther flee
    Waters [slowpoke, blastoise, staryu, wag] - These matchups can be judgement calls
    Omastar - switch
    Fires

    So basically it's nice vs porygon, potentially useful vs the things you can force out, a judgement call vs the waters other than oma tbh, and that only leaves the grounds that cause issues.

    --

    Honestly Staryu is fine in B-, Peas convinced me when it was super effective versus me earlier. I think it just takes a bit more time to learn how to use idk. Pressures waters well and lots of stuff hates para.
     
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Disagree with a lot of that. Fire Spin is crazy useful against things like Poke and the Nidos as they're the kind of pokemon that can have a big impact in a single turn as nothing really counters them. Like, Nidos can obviously do huge amounts of damage and it's difficult to get around that, while Poke is just a nuisance with Twave, Amnesia and Psychic, there's loads of mindgames to be had. In those situations, free switches are absolutely invaluable.

    I mean yeah, you don't wanna be relying on Spin to break Nido the way you might vs Pory, but it's still really useful.

    As for Staryu, pressures waters is literally all it does, which isn't great when other waters do a lot more and Pory does a lot more. When you say lots of stuff hates para, are you saying it's a good spreader of para or are you trying to dismiss my argument that it's crippled by para? Because if it's the latter then it'll need a bit more than that. That's like saying lots of things aren't good to get wet so it doesn't matter whether it's a shirt or a phone that gets chucked in the pool. Staryu in no way represents a pokemon that can tolerate para, as its defensive stats are abysmal, meaning that it leans on its speed a lot more and it can easily find itself in positions where it might have to spam Recover and a fp would be basically doom
     
  8. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Porygon is actually the only real Fire Spin target. Of course sometimes you use it against other stuff but it's against Pory in most cases. Also, when you look at ingame occurences, Porygon only switches in Rapidash in case of an emergency since Blastoise, Slowpoke, and Omastar make way better checks otherwise. If it's because those pokemon are dead, Rapidash will often be paralysed/sleeping, and if not well yeah Fire Spin can be nice, but if it's because your opponent doesn't have them I think you shouldn't stay with Rapidash against Pory because it means the opposite team is weak to Dash so you may want to keep it fresh and unparalysed. Also, if you want to get your Fire paralysed to block sleep, Fire Spin becomes useless and you're better off having more bulk with Arcanine.

    Using Fire Spin T1 against a moth lead is fine to pivot against the incoming check but your opponent will understand what you're doing, so the only thing you really gain is a mindgame situation. It's even a 70% chance of getting a mindgame situation, and if you miss Fire Spin on the switch well are you really gonna go for another one against Oma/Blastoise ? Just to get a mindgame ? There's (IMO) a better way to play that Fire vs Moth lead match-up, and it's doubling to your own moth, which is in my experience more reliable than Fire Spin.

    Nidoking vs Rapidash usually happens endgame, where once again, Dash is usually paralysed. If it's not paralysed and you're desperate well then okay Fire Spin is nice but a lot of conditions are needed. Another appeal is Fire Spin + Burn which also rarely happens because you'd rather spread para than burn. Also, using Fire SPin against poke is taking the risk of eating twave which makes Fspin worthless. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Fspin is crap but i'm saying the number of situations in which it's good is too low to put Rapidash 2 ranks above Arcanine, which was my original point. I wasn't saying which one is better (it really is a matter of preference I think) but was more about discussing the fact that they were 2 ranks apart, which I think they shouldn't be.

    As for Staryu, B- is fine. Dropping it to C would put it in the same category as Poliwag which would be kind of insulting lol. I see it as an endgame offensive mon that can be hard to break if your tools to do so are gone or crippled. It doesn't have as much utility as other waters early/midgame, that's a fact. Things that annoy tend to be less around endgame, so that lack of utility during the other states of the games is what makes it more inconsistent than the rest, which suits B- I think. It's also a good Omastar switch in, a pokemon that seemed to rise in usage. C is way too harsh.
     
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  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    So where do you think dash/dog should be ranked?
     
  10. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Dash in A is fine, Arcanine B+ or B- (prolly B- for the time being)
     
  11. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    This is science, minus Arcanine to B-: it's just below Rapidash. I think Rapidash is too high given it's weak to Nidoking, Blastoise, Omastar, Nidoqueen- and it hates paralysis: basically it's really useful only when facing Venomoth, Tangela or Scyther.
    Ninetales is not all that bad, it has looow attack, but E rank is too much of a punishment.
    Electrode's decent, as it can Explode on Nidoking so it could eventually make it to D (I'd switch it and Magneton)...

    About making the tier, it looks like Arcanine and maybe Nidoqueen/Poliwag are the only ones to be discusssed.
     
  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    So maybe dash B+, doge B-? Tales to D sounds ok-ish, has anyone tested it? I think Electrode needs to be tested a bit more, I think booming on Nidoking sounds pretty useful and it's not too bad otherwise anyway.

    About the tier, we need to decide how we suspect Nidoking. Do people still think it might be ban-worthy? Can we please discuss it in the suspect discussion thread?
     
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  13. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Tales to D I think is good. It's not a bad pokemon, it's actually quite decent it's just severely outclassed. I've run dual fire types and I think it's viable for that strategy but that's still really limited...

    Peasounay, why are you assuming Dash is copping status? I mean yeah if you're not even trying to keep it free of status then spin diminishes in value and hence it's about the same level as Arca, but a lot of the time when using Dash I try and keep it free of status. Likewise I think we have a different perception of the level of risk involved with using Fire Spin. The impression I get is that you consider it too risky to use against Poke/Nido, but really these pokemon can cause a lot of trouble (Poke needs some predicts tho) if you switch out and give them a free turn. Meanwhile Spin will still pay out more often than not and it eliminates an opportunity for those pokemon.

    That said, I think maybe I was overrating Dash a little before, I'd concede that A is a bit much

    As for Staryu, your offhanded mention of Poliwag brings up an interesting point. I think we could do away with B- by dropping it down to C and dropping Poliwag down to D. Poliwag is straight up garbage and as the list is currently constructed, its placement sticks out like a sore thumb. It's a lead that isn't good at leading as it's extremely unreliable, plagued by shaky matchups and even if the stars align and it sleeps something and gets off an Amnesia, it's still not that hard to stop. And once you've stopped it, it's not going to impact the game after that because it's frail and prone to eating paralysis. Definitely I think it belongs in D.
     
  14. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Ranking Update
    Arcanine - C > B-
    Diglett - E > D
    Nidoqueen - C > B-
    Ninetales - E > D
    Scyther - B+ > B-

    There appeared to be no opposition to Diglett or Nidoqueen rising. Majority seem to be of the opinion Arcanine is deserving of B-. Still haven't seen Ninetales in action, but it does seem being placed in E rank is a bit undeserved. Also agree with Wag to D, but then we'd have the issue of an empty C rank. I'm thinking the viability rankings should look something like this right now:

    S Rank
    Nidoking, Porygon, Venomoth

    A Rank
    Blastoise, Rapidash, Slowpoke

    B Rank
    Abra, Arcanine, Tangela, Nidoqueen, Omastar

    C Rank
    Scyther, Staryu

    D Rank
    Diglett, Machamp, Magneton, Muk, Ninetales, Poliwag, Weepinbell


    Mostly, this remerges B into 1 rank, drops Poliwag to D and drops Scyther/Staryu into C. Scyther I think has Dragonite syndrome, where virtually everything ranked higher than it either can inflict paralysis (in 4U's case usually directly with Thunder Wave/Stun Spore) or 2HKOs, has a viable hard counter (Gengar/Omastar), and doesn't become a huge threat until it finds an opportunity to set up. Staryu, aside from being squishy and having paralysis troubles, has a lot of competition from other Waters and when teambuilding I usually consider Toise/Poke/Oma before it. Rapidash could maybe drop to B (I disagree, but if majority feel it belongs there that's where it'll go), but it should still be one rank above Arcanine (so if Rapidash is B, then Arcanine is C). It feels very similar to the case of Golem/Rhydon where the former has the speed advantage against the latter and access to a useful tool (Explosion/Fire Spin), and the latter has more bulk/Attack, so I think that'd be appropriate.

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2016
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    My thoughts:

    S
    Moth
    Nido
    (no question of these)

    A
    Porygon (controversial though, don't want to to comment just yet buuuut I don't think it's impactful enough. Will concede it in S though)
    Blastoise
    Slowpoke

    B
    Abra
    Rapidash
    Tangela

    C
    Arcanine
    Nidoqueen
    Omastar
    Scyther
    Staryu

    D
    Diglett
    Machamp
    Magneton
    Ninetales
    Muk [can we theorise on this more?]
    Poliswag
    Weepinbell

    Not sure on the fires.

    But yeah I think move poliswag to D, make B- become C
     
  16. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Hm... One can argue about Porygon. It is just a nice paraspreader and absorber due to recover which is never a bad thing to have in RBY... But I agree that it is not on the level of Nidoking and Venomoth, but simultaniously Blastoise, Slowpoke and definitely Rapidash are not on the same level as Pory imo. So I'd still support Porygon in S bottomline....
    I have a hard time putting Staryu (and Scyther) in C... But if we decide to turn B- into C due to dropping wag (which I am fine with) then I guess it's justifyable. I'd put Electrode in D for that matter. My list (without subranks) would look something like this (with subranks would look different):

    S
    King, Moth, Pory
    A
    Toise, Poke
    B
    Dash, Oma, Abra, Tangela
    C
    Dog, Scyther, Staryu, Queen,
    D
    Poliwag, Machamp, Diglett, Electrode, Magneton, Graveler, Dragonair, Weepinbell, Ninetales, Muk
     
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  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    You'd really put graveler and dragonair in D?
     
  18. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Dragonair and Graveler to D? That's quite a jump from F, were there any developments that you feel make them deserving of that rank?

    So here's the tally so far for each Pokemon's rankings:

    Nidoking = 3 S
    Venomoth = 3 S
    Porygon = 2 S, 1 A
    Blastoise = 3 A
    Slowpoke = 3 A
    Rapidash = 1 A, 2 B
    Abra = 3 B
    Tangela = 3 B
    Omastar = 2 B, 1 C
    Arcanine = 1 B, 2 C
    Nidoqueen = 1 B, 2 C
    Scyther = 3 C
    Staryu = 3 C
     
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  19. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    That new format seems cool, I'm with the ranks Enigami suggested, only question marks being Fires (A and B or B and C ?) And Omastar that I see more in C than B. I will fight to death for S pory.

    Also I thought about Electrode a bit and D wouldn't bother me ? Twave/Tbolt/Screech/Boom, Nidoking is OHKOd after Screech and is baited easily, hehe isn't it better than weezing in a complete madman strategy ?

    As for Muk, I would run FBlast (Moth, Tang), Tbolt (Waters), Boom, and maybe Hyper Beam for an Abra OHKO ? Sludge is only good for Tangela really. I'll definitely try it more.
     
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  20. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Ah maybe D rank is a little optimistc for Graveler... I just feel they are usable Graveler has slighly more atk than King even and it gets boom, but yeah maybe not^^). Dragonair on the other hand is underrated in F imo. In the current metagame (where most mons drop ice attacks for Psychic (Pory) and Fire coverage (Nidoking) Dragonair can be quite dangerous with Agility/Wrap/Thunderbolt/Blizzard. (It can set up on resting water like Toise or Poke and is not even 2HKOed by King's EQ...
     
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