RBY 3U Viability Rankings

[marcoasd]

When Clefable's used on nearly 100% of teams surely that's kid of a moot point? Still, I think I'll return it to C for now, though it could definitely move up after more testing.

Looking for another opinion other than mine/marco/lusch's (I think me for C; lusch for same rank as Ninetales - leaning more towards C for both than D for both; marco for D) on flareon

When I look at a new team, I'd pick Exeggcute over most B-.

But that doesn't make it B- worthy.

That's because you love double powder gimmicks! Exeggcute can't keep up with fully evolved pokemon because it lacks decent specials (Psychic is 5HKO on Clefable...)
And Flareon is slow and destroyed by grounds too.

 

[Disaster Area]

That's because you love double powder gimmicks! Exeggcute can't keep up with fully evolved pokemon because it lacks decent specials (Psychic is 5HKO on Clefable...)
And Flareon is slow and destroyed by grounds too.

I don't use exeggcute all that much and I'm not really that fond of it, but everyone I play with uses it regularly. Also in 1U I drop double powder a lot on Egg - in fact I drop Exeggutor the most out of the big 4!

Flareon's a wallbreaker and grounds aren't desperately hard to switch into and as Lusch said having seen it in action, he was impressed by it.

 

[CrapAtRBY]

Exeggcute belongs in C imo, it's a very poor mon but it fills a valuable niche, it sleeps and then it explodes off meager attack, nothing more, the word I would use to describe it is 'functional'

 

[marcoasd]

I don't use exeggcute all that much and I'm not really that fond of it, but everyone I play with uses it regularly. Also in 1U I drop double powder a lot on Egg - in fact I drop Exeggutor the most out of the big 4!

Flareon's a wallbreaker and grounds aren't desperately hard to switch into and as Lusch said having seen it in action, he was impressed by it.

Grounds are reasonably easy to switch for your builds, and Exeggcute being there is a part of it.

Flareon can do well when you're attacking, forcing switches: a well timed CH Slam on a slightly weakened Vaporeon can be followed with an Hyper Beam for a KO, and that's something Ninetales can't do.
It can get cornered by grounds and waters, though, and fast pokemon are important in this tier: games are usually won by a fast sweeper left unparalyzed and unchecked.
I like it more than Ninetales, but again, speed is that important and best way to decide on those ranks would be using stats.

 

[Disaster Area]

Thoughts on Porygon D -> E?

 

[Disaster Area]

I think venomoth might be a candidate for D. I think it serves some purpose as a lead, with its main niche over gastly being that base 90 speed and having a decent enough attack stat that mime won't just eat up double edge, as well as a 4x razor leaf resistance making it a little better vs venusaur perhaps, and stun spore is obviously neat too. I think it sounds somewhat usable although gastly's normal resistance is obviously a nice draw to it. It also outspeeds venusaur and pinsir.

Also I think Porygon could move down to E. It just doesn't really do anything.

Edit: looks like I asked that before. At least I said some other stuff this time too ;~;

Thoughts?

 

[Ortheore]

Both those changes are reasonable I guess. I'm still a bit sceptical on Moth in terms of how impactful those advantages you discussed really are, but I suppose D is fair

 

[Disaster Area]

Both those changes are reasonable I guess. I'm still a bit sceptical on Moth in terms of how impactful those advantages you discussed really are, but I suppose D is fair

Yeah I'd like to test it a bit when I have the chance but it seems to me like it's probably a valid choice

 

[Disaster Area]

Muk should at the least be added to E rank.

Muk and Weezing could both be considered for D rank.

Weezing:
Provides anti-physical support (mainly Fearow and Aero), checks Venusaur, Explosion helps check Golduck. Kinda like Graveler + checking Venu / not instadieing to waters - beating Electrics, so obviously take your standard team and swap out Venu for Exeggcute.

Muk:
Similar to weezing, but more power and less physical bulk. Swap out Vap for Dewgong on that team you just made and it fits.

Probably want a Zard as your lead on that to help break Vaporeon and you're good to go. Needs a bit of tesitng but should be at least legitimate enough for D. Thoughts?

 

[Lusch]

Some suggestions concerning ther rankings, to be more accurate, B-rank.
I think as it currently is, the partition of the Pokemon into the two subranks feel wrong.
Changes that I would make:

• Duggy to B- , from what I feel Aero is pretty common and pretty good at the moment and Duggy usually gives it an opportunity to switch in.
• Golduck to B- , I find it is kind of hard to fit on a team because usually water types fill defensive roles on teams which requires switching into diverse offensive Pokemon of the tier such as Charizard or Aerodactyl, which Golduck just is not as good at. So I feel it belongs in the same drawer as Kingler.
• Pinsir to B- , while it is a big threat in the tier, I still feel is is not that easy to fit on any team because it does not provide that good defensive utility, while not being fast enough to be a sweeper, in short, it is just not on the same level as Aero and thus should drop.
• Sandslash to B- , Aero being good just hurts, idk, just does not feel B+ anymore.
• Charizard to B+ , Zard is a beast, Fire Blast hurts everything hard and thus is has very few reliable switch ins (Aero fears the burn)
• Dewgong to B+ , literally zero switch ins besides opposing Dewgong, Vaporeon obviously switches in but is not threatening to Dewgong while Gong can score a freeze.

Curious about opinions.

 

[Disaster Area]

Those are interesting thoughts. I can't say I disagree with much. Though I don't feel Zard is all that potent, although fire types are kinda nice. I think Pinsir can be super dangerous in certain matchups and Golduck is incredibly powerful on paper. With Sandslash I don't see how aero is its biggest issue. Nothing really punishes sandslash amazingly, its just that it has a lot of very average matchups and a significant amount of poor ones, and it makes the team overall slower which can be problematic when pinsir / golduck appear.

 

[marcoasd]

Everything else looks very accurate, and I think rankings you suggest to be legit.

Actually Sandslash is helped by Aerodactyl being good: it's one of the best counters (leaving out Vaporeon and Dewgong to a lesser extent), even though Fire Blast admittedly hurts. Slash can switch into very few things besides from Buzz (Fearow...) and it's slow. IMO it's still better than Dugtrio due to its bulk, but grounds are definitely the weak link in the system and yeah, speed doesn't help Slash (Trio can clean...).

Dactly runs Rest, hence paraslams and burns are far from being an answer. Of course, forcing Rest is good if you can keep momentum and get something good out of those turns of sleep.
Best way for Zard to deal with it is to surprise it with Counter at proper time (LOL).

I like Dewgong a lot.
Main Golduck's issue is paralysis: Vaporeon takes very little damage and has enough time to paraslam it, then Venusaur... and Golduck doesn't have enough bulk to abuse Rest to get rid of paralysis nor to be useful defensively.

 

[Disaster Area]

I don't think aero or sandslash really answer eachother, neither loves to switch in but they can trade hits and each ends up fairly crippled.

Also yeah burns / para are nice tools for checking aero, when it's forced to resit's much more exploitable.

And yeah Venu and Vap and to a lesser extent Dewgong gives Golduck some issues. I'd say its strengths are versus teams that drop at least one of those, and also you can support it, e.g. with running EniZard. I think B- is fair for it.

Also on Zard I think EniZard can be hit or miss, it's medium-high risk, medium-high reward, and the generic lead zard is nice but doesn't break anything and ninetales gives it competition. I don't really see it as B+ rn.

 

[marcoasd]

I don't think aero or sandslash really answer eachother, neither loves to switch in but they can trade hits and each ends up fairly crippled.

True, and that is pretty good: which better options do you have besides from waters? Aerodactyl of your own, or just stay in and fight it.
But... the pokemon Dactyl is trying to revenge kill could be more valuable than your ground type, and waters counter many things so you might want to save them as well.

Zard's main issue is Dactyl: I never had big issues having to deal with Vaporeon. We could consider moving Dactyl to A: you know i never liked it, no STAB etc, but considering the state of 3U (and it should be pretty defined after months) its ability to deal with Charizard, Pinsir and Fearow is worth many extra points.
Grounds are frail, Buzz/Zard/Fearow/Pinsir have counters... Dactyl is more of a pivotal piece and it looks closer to the Vaporeon and Venusaur than to the B+ group.

Taking a look at those rankings again, and I'm not sure Mr.Mime lasts long enough on the field to be claimed S. It's obviously great offensively but its versatility leaves a lot to be desired: it can't switch into stuff, takes hard blows and there are faster pokemon.
Result: I think I saw people dropping it at times...

 

[Disaster Area]

yeah I was thinking aero to A but i wasn't certain on it. Dactyl is one of the bst cleaners + defensively does a lot but u can wall it if you wantto / it self-walls, but yea it is a surprisingly pivotal piece. Also whilst I'd probably never drop mime I think mime to A is reasonable.

 

[Disaster Area]

So a summary of what's being proposed rn:

S -> A

B+ -> A

B+ -> B-

B+ -> B-

B+ -> B-

B+ -> B-

B- -> B+

B- -> B+
Also going to propose:

B+ -> B- b/c aero reduces its usefulness and pinsir impinges on its niche [more reliable venu answer vs does more damage] as does zard [tho fearow is much less bothered by waters]

My views:
A

maybe B could lok something like
B+

B (mid)

B-

or maybe not even split up B at all. I think Dewgong is clearly a bit superior to the rest but...
Undecided

(I kinda fel it's not quite on saur level. Maybe mime / saur A+, vap / aero A-?)

In fact what about this?
S

A+

A-

(maybe I overrate dewgong though? alternatively this could be in B and move Vap down to A-)
B

Interestingly you can break down B a bit further into Beats Saur [Zard / Fearow / Pinsir], checks Buzz [Duggy / Buz / Sandslash], and replaces water slot [Golduck / Kingler, and true for Dewgong too]. Also, Zard / Fearow both check pinsir, and aero beats al 3 of the things which beat saur [+ checks duggy too]

 

[Ortheore]

S

A+

A-

(maybe I overrate dewgong though? alternatively this could be in B and move Vap down to A-)
B

Overall I like this but tbh I don't even think we need A-. Aero is something I've never appreciated greatly myself, but I think the arguments made here are pretty strong, while Dewgong I honestly don't think is substantially worse than Vap. Vap packs more raw power but is more prediction dependent, forced to choose between maximising power against a neutral target or nailing Venu on the switch, whereas Dewgong doesn't have to make that choice since there's literally no reason not to spam Blizzard. Also you have to weigh up beating Vaporeon vs the ability to tank stray Tbolts edit: also resisting FBlast. Vap is probably more useful in general, but I don't think the difference is substantial

 

[Disaster Area]

Vap is basically better vs most of the metagme but Dewgong is better vs Vap and has Ice STAB which is a better type to throw around. Vap can be kind of absurd at least on paper to break and fresh one is always a bit scary but dewgong neutralises it well and nothing really likes switching into dewgong at all. I see your point more that i think about it but I've not entirely come around to Aero being on that level though I'm on the way there I think.

 

[DDX2]

Why is Flareon rank C below the ban line, when in 4U and 5U we see Rapidash, Arcanine and Magmar as fire types to use over it?
Is there something special about Flareon in this tier compared to the others? Does this mean that the other 3 mentioned are viable Rank C (not banned), D, or E picks and Flareon should be lower?

 

[Peasounay]

A lot to comment on

I'm a bit with Ortheore here, I don't think A- is needed, I was never a fan of Aero, it's a good hit and runner + cockblocker but I don't know I feel like there's always at least one thing per team who's gonna make its life difficult, and usually bulky things that might be he hard to take down if your opponent plays his cards right.

Mime I can see why you would want to drop it to A, I don't rly agree I personally never drop it given how good it is at almost everything bar switching-in but I can see why that would happen, so I don't oppose.

Also instead of spliting up more ranks, why not just put Dewgong to A and have a mono B rank/Two B ranks ? I think it would be easier, the thing is when it comes to split up one single rank, which mon goes where is a lot about players preferences. I'd prolly just swap zard and golduck tbh.