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ADV 2U-L Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Disaster Area
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supercube64
Member
Surprised not to hear any mention of Aggron. Is he bad in 2U?
Yeah, it has a worse typing than Registeel and worse special bulk. Obviously it hard walls any physical resisted hit, but a lot of mons already do that to some extent [registeel, regirock, rhydon, and steelix is of course an option too]. Rhydon is also better as a hard-hitter, since it as a better STAB combination, and has higher power.
It's not unusable, just that its niche is small, b/c its main niche is really just as a hard-hitter that totally blanks certain hits, but it gets smacked around very hard by super-effective attacks. It has a speed advantage over Marowak and Rhydon and so it'd outspeed common Pokemon which would be EV'd to outspeed these Pokemon such as Lanturn and Venusaur, so that's kinda neat.
It's not unusable, just that its niche is small, b/c its main niche is really just as a hard-hitter that totally blanks certain hits, but it gets smacked around very hard by super-effective attacks. It has a speed advantage over Marowak and Rhydon and so it'd outspeed common Pokemon which would be EV'd to outspeed these Pokemon such as Lanturn and Venusaur, so that's kinda neat.
supercube64
Member
Makes sense. Where would Aggron be in the PP tiers then? 4U?
There is no 4U yet. 3U has barely even had any testing, so 4U is still a ways off. Aggron could be viable in 3U, but again the tier is untested.
Idk yet. We've barely tested 3U at all so it'd just be hypothetical until we get there through testing.
supercube64
Member
I was talking from a hypothetical standpoint but yeah thanks for the answers.
How are Blaziken and Charizard that low¿
They are probably 2 of the best mons in this tier. There is no sand in this tier, so Sub Reversal is one of the big threats of the tier. Blaziken can also 2hko the tier with a CB set, and only some bulky waters like Vap and Lanturn can wall the mixed set.
Charizard is like a Moltres that can destroy Chansey with Focus Punch but without pressure. The SD + Overheat set is very dangerous as well, especially if you can Toxic their bulky water.
To show the power (assuming Blaze range):
252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun: 408-481 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And even worse. How the fuck are Kabutops, Steelix and Dodrio C? They should be much higher.
All it needs Kabutops is Registeel / Steelix being removed or weakened. It can OHKO even Donphan after a SD with spikes support (50% chance). Def a scary late game sweeper that should be B+ at worst.
Steelix is worse in this tier than Registeel (unlike in OU) because the lack of good electric mons (Lanturn does not count for obv reasons). It is however the best anti Tauros / Dodrio of the tier. Should be higher.
Dodrio is slower than Tauros, but is still very fast, hits very hard and has Baton Pass, which is especially useful with Spikes. It trades the speed for extra attack, which can be really good sometimes. QA is also another reason to use it (beats flail and reversal users). Should be in the same tier than Tauros probs.
How is Chansey S? Chansey is a 0 offensively unlike Blissey in OU. Its good, but not THAT good
Regirock, Dusclops, Sceptile and Scizor should all stay in the tier.
Dusclops would be much better if it wasnt because Houndoom just destroys it. It is still a really solid mon in this tier.
Edit: Also I just realized...
Where is Zangoose???? Thats probs an A mon in this tier, probably even S.
Where is Arcanine?? Another amazing mon
Where is Espeon???? ...
Ursaring?? Slowbro??
Really you are missing some Mons that are much better than most of the tier LOL
They are probably 2 of the best mons in this tier. There is no sand in this tier, so Sub Reversal is one of the big threats of the tier. Blaziken can also 2hko the tier with a CB set, and only some bulky waters like Vap and Lanturn can wall the mixed set.
Charizard is like a Moltres that can destroy Chansey with Focus Punch but without pressure. The SD + Overheat set is very dangerous as well, especially if you can Toxic their bulky water.
To show the power (assuming Blaze range):
252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun: 408-481 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And even worse. How the fuck are Kabutops, Steelix and Dodrio C? They should be much higher.
All it needs Kabutops is Registeel / Steelix being removed or weakened. It can OHKO even Donphan after a SD with spikes support (50% chance). Def a scary late game sweeper that should be B+ at worst.
Steelix is worse in this tier than Registeel (unlike in OU) because the lack of good electric mons (Lanturn does not count for obv reasons). It is however the best anti Tauros / Dodrio of the tier. Should be higher.
Dodrio is slower than Tauros, but is still very fast, hits very hard and has Baton Pass, which is especially useful with Spikes. It trades the speed for extra attack, which can be really good sometimes. QA is also another reason to use it (beats flail and reversal users). Should be in the same tier than Tauros probs.
How is Chansey S? Chansey is a 0 offensively unlike Blissey in OU. Its good, but not THAT good
Regirock, Dusclops, Sceptile and Scizor should all stay in the tier.
Dusclops would be much better if it wasnt because Houndoom just destroys it. It is still a really solid mon in this tier.
Edit: Also I just realized...
Where is Zangoose???? Thats probs an A mon in this tier, probably even S.
Where is Arcanine?? Another amazing mon
Where is Espeon???? ...
Ursaring?? Slowbro??
Really you are missing some Mons that are much better than most of the tier LOL
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Uh... where to begin. I see you haven't played a single game, and barely glanced at viability rankings considering that you think a number of mons are missing when they've been tested and ranked or even banned.
I'll try to answer your questions, though Disaster Area knows the tier better.
Blaziken: B- and not voted 2U. I haven't used it much (and when I did it felt mediocre), and don't even see Reversal being a huge threat, since most teams are very likely to carry Pokemon that can withstand a hit from Blaze Fireblast or 1% Reversal and OHKO Blaziken (Donphan, Vaporeon, HP Flying Dragonite, to name a few), and if the opponent guesses your set right (the first sub being a good sign if it isn't followed by Leftovers recovery), they can even exploit its limited coverage to wall it or set up since 2 slots are used for Sub and Reversal which requires the opponent to keep attacking subs to have any meaningful power.
Charizard: C+, it's nowhere close to being Moltres. Moltres is one of the most versatile threats in the tier, having a very annoyingly strong defensive Morning Sun set, special attacker set, and even an effective CB set I made that lures and KOs Chansey and other Fires.
Kabutops: C, I've never really seen nor used it and it's pretty obvious why. Water/Rock is weak to a lot of common attacks in the tier, and 80 speed means plenty of things that are very scary to Kabutops atleast can speed tie so even after a SD it'd struggle to accomplish much.
Steelix: C, I don't see how it'd be higher. Registeel is vastly superior because of its massive Special bulk, Thunder Wave (TWave SubPunch is nasty), Grass-resistance and Water-neutrality.
Dodrio: C, little reason to use it. Tauros can use Earthquake with HP Ghost for coverage and also has Intimidate. HP Ground is very much inferior to Tauros' EQ. With Dodrio you're gonna have a serious problem with Solrock and Steels, with one or the other being a hard counter depending on which HP you choose. I've used it, and even experimented with BP + Trapinch to help it with its Steel problem, but honestly having used both quite a bit I'd have to say Tauros is really that much better.
Chansey: Toxic + Seismic Toss isn't quite 0 offense on something with Chansey's bulk and instant recovery, and Heal Bell or Wish support while being a huge obstacle for any special attacker is great. That said, I don't know exactly how it measures up since usually whenever I faced it, it was against my CB Moltres that eats Chanseys for breakfast.
Regirock: B- and not voted 2U. I think the problem is that Regirock is kind of stuck in the middle between Registeel and Rhydon. If you want a Normal wall, Registeel does it better. If you want offense, Rhydon does it better. Kinda subjective, and I use Regirock over Rhydon usually, but I can see where Regirock might not quite be 2U material.
Dusclops: C+, being Houndoom weak is a MAJOR problem, and it's bulky yeah but it's pretty slow and exploitable due to its weak offenses.
Sceptile: B- and not voted 2U. Grass just isn't a great typing when you have a ton of resists around, SubSeed is easily stopped cold by Venusaur, and SD isn't very strong.
Scizor: B- and not voted 2U. Don't remember what it's problem was.
Zangoose: C, it has the same 'Why am I not just using Tauros' problem Dodrio does. Low bulk, no EQ, and outsped and OHKO'd by Adamant CB Tauros (the standard Tauros set).
Arcanine: The only thing that wasn't ranked, and I challenge your claim that it's amazing. I feel Arcanine is mediocre even in 3U from what I've tested, and outside of Intimidate and predictable CB Espeed what does it do that the other Fires in this tier don't already do?
Espeon: Banned, because Speed + Instant Recovery + Calm Mind + Baton Pass + plenty of very strong recipients like Moltres.
Ursaring: C-, this was one of the first things people looked at and was feared to be a huge threat, but it really is a lot less dangerous than we'd feared. It's pretty slow and can't take hits very well.
Slowbro: B- and voted 2U, so it's covered. Can't say much since I never really used or faced it.
I'll try to answer your questions, though Disaster Area knows the tier better.
Blaziken: B- and not voted 2U. I haven't used it much (and when I did it felt mediocre), and don't even see Reversal being a huge threat, since most teams are very likely to carry Pokemon that can withstand a hit from Blaze Fireblast or 1% Reversal and OHKO Blaziken (Donphan, Vaporeon, HP Flying Dragonite, to name a few), and if the opponent guesses your set right (the first sub being a good sign if it isn't followed by Leftovers recovery), they can even exploit its limited coverage to wall it or set up since 2 slots are used for Sub and Reversal which requires the opponent to keep attacking subs to have any meaningful power.
Charizard: C+, it's nowhere close to being Moltres. Moltres is one of the most versatile threats in the tier, having a very annoyingly strong defensive Morning Sun set, special attacker set, and even an effective CB set I made that lures and KOs Chansey and other Fires.
Kabutops: C, I've never really seen nor used it and it's pretty obvious why. Water/Rock is weak to a lot of common attacks in the tier, and 80 speed means plenty of things that are very scary to Kabutops atleast can speed tie so even after a SD it'd struggle to accomplish much.
Steelix: C, I don't see how it'd be higher. Registeel is vastly superior because of its massive Special bulk, Thunder Wave (TWave SubPunch is nasty), Grass-resistance and Water-neutrality.
Dodrio: C, little reason to use it. Tauros can use Earthquake with HP Ghost for coverage and also has Intimidate. HP Ground is very much inferior to Tauros' EQ. With Dodrio you're gonna have a serious problem with Solrock and Steels, with one or the other being a hard counter depending on which HP you choose. I've used it, and even experimented with BP + Trapinch to help it with its Steel problem, but honestly having used both quite a bit I'd have to say Tauros is really that much better.
Chansey: Toxic + Seismic Toss isn't quite 0 offense on something with Chansey's bulk and instant recovery, and Heal Bell or Wish support while being a huge obstacle for any special attacker is great. That said, I don't know exactly how it measures up since usually whenever I faced it, it was against my CB Moltres that eats Chanseys for breakfast.
Regirock: B- and not voted 2U. I think the problem is that Regirock is kind of stuck in the middle between Registeel and Rhydon. If you want a Normal wall, Registeel does it better. If you want offense, Rhydon does it better. Kinda subjective, and I use Regirock over Rhydon usually, but I can see where Regirock might not quite be 2U material.
Dusclops: C+, being Houndoom weak is a MAJOR problem, and it's bulky yeah but it's pretty slow and exploitable due to its weak offenses.
Sceptile: B- and not voted 2U. Grass just isn't a great typing when you have a ton of resists around, SubSeed is easily stopped cold by Venusaur, and SD isn't very strong.
Scizor: B- and not voted 2U. Don't remember what it's problem was.
Zangoose: C, it has the same 'Why am I not just using Tauros' problem Dodrio does. Low bulk, no EQ, and outsped and OHKO'd by Adamant CB Tauros (the standard Tauros set).
Arcanine: The only thing that wasn't ranked, and I challenge your claim that it's amazing. I feel Arcanine is mediocre even in 3U from what I've tested, and outside of Intimidate and predictable CB Espeed what does it do that the other Fires in this tier don't already do?
Espeon: Banned, because Speed + Instant Recovery + Calm Mind + Baton Pass + plenty of very strong recipients like Moltres.
Ursaring: C-, this was one of the first things people looked at and was feared to be a huge threat, but it really is a lot less dangerous than we'd feared. It's pretty slow and can't take hits very well.
Slowbro: B- and voted 2U, so it's covered. Can't say much since I never really used or faced it.
I havent played this tier but I know what mons are good and what mons are bad, and I see that you dont even know the good sets of some mons xD.
I will just comment on some of them:
The excellent Blaziken counters you said vs the standard reversal set for a non Jolteon/Aero tier:
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Reversal (200 BP) vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 353-416 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Reversal (200 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 369-435 (111.4 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Charizard and Moltres are played differently. Charizard is much more powerful than Moltres, with its Sunny Day Petaya set and it can also use a BD set to rape switchings to the special set. So they send Lanturn / Chansey? Charizard Subs (or uses D-E) to get the Salac boost and sweeps the team. Btw I forgot to add Charcoal in the calc I posted before, so its even more powerful.
You have clearly never used or faced a Kabutops since you dont know its set. Kabutops has Endure + Salac + Flail (walled by steels, thats why you need to lure them)
Arcanine: The best Moltres counter in the tier, has ES to beat flailers and reversalers
The fact that you are comparing Zangoose with Tauros means that you have never used it, because they have completely different roles.
I will just comment on some of them:
The excellent Blaziken counters you said vs the standard reversal set for a non Jolteon/Aero tier:
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Reversal (200 BP) vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 353-416 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Reversal (200 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 369-435 (111.4 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Charizard and Moltres are played differently. Charizard is much more powerful than Moltres, with its Sunny Day Petaya set and it can also use a BD set to rape switchings to the special set. So they send Lanturn / Chansey? Charizard Subs (or uses D-E) to get the Salac boost and sweeps the team. Btw I forgot to add Charcoal in the calc I posted before, so its even more powerful.
You have clearly never used or faced a Kabutops since you dont know its set. Kabutops has Endure + Salac + Flail (walled by steels, thats why you need to lure them)
Arcanine: The best Moltres counter in the tier, has ES to beat flailers and reversalers
The fact that you are comparing Zangoose with Tauros means that you have never used it, because they have completely different roles.
Perhaps they are underestimated, but that should be proven with results rather than theorymon. Tell you what, use them and dominate games with them then argue for their rankings. Arguing about what ranks Pokemon belong in when you haven't even played a single battle when the rankings have been made over plenty of testing and battles is extremely arrogant.
I admit I'm not familiar with ADV OU sets (never really got into ADV OU), but I have experience in ADV 2U and I feel there are plenty of ways to deal with these sets if you know them (most of your sets are Salac sets which are screwed by status, and are completely obvious on any Sub sets without leftovers recovery) and think you're overvaluing them a bit.
Also... Arcanine 'best Moltres counter'. What. How? The standard Moltres is a 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxic + Morning Sun set, and how does Arcanine counter that?
Edit: Had a chat with M Dragon on Skype, and retract my arguments. Definitely knows ADV a LOT better than I do, but would still like some battles in the current meta to better determine their strength here.
I admit I'm not familiar with ADV OU sets (never really got into ADV OU), but I have experience in ADV 2U and I feel there are plenty of ways to deal with these sets if you know them (most of your sets are Salac sets which are screwed by status, and are completely obvious on any Sub sets without leftovers recovery) and think you're overvaluing them a bit.
Also... Arcanine 'best Moltres counter'. What. How? The standard Moltres is a 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxic + Morning Sun set, and how does Arcanine counter that?
Edit: Had a chat with M Dragon on Skype, and retract my arguments. Definitely knows ADV a LOT better than I do, but would still like some battles in the current meta to better determine their strength here.
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Yea we probably missed quite a bit so I'll try and be a bit conciliatory in this post, I'll just explain why on stuff.
With Blaziken its power has just been absolutely awful in my experience, when trying Mixed and SD it just gets walled by Vaporeon easily, and stuff lke Dragonite being super present makes its life a lot harder. Sub + Rev sounds good but I wonder, what does it do exactly tha medicham doesn't other than have a slightly better defensive typing? I do kinda agree that we're probably not really using Reversal abuse enough, it's something I'm super unfamiliar with so I don't know how to really build or play with that style of set yet unfortunately. But for non-reversal sets, I feel like it has plenty of checks and it's not like it switches in easily b/c it's frail and its typing isn't that great considering its stats. Also, stuff like Donphan and Quagsire are also great checks. And uncommon stuff like Weezing and Slowbro handle it. I feel like its 2 STABs miss a lot and that it can only hit one or two of its counters with any given coverage move [rock slide, eq, hp grass, hp ice, etc] and having a physical and special stab as well as speed that appreciates a lot of investment really limits how powerful it actually is. Maybe it's still decent but just needs really specific well thought out building, but it's always felt super dificult to use in my experience.
Charizard also has the same kind of issue of being unable to really make up for the limitations of its coverage. It has greater unpredictability and can be potentially stupidly powerful, but again it's very difficult to build with and use in battle in my experience. I wish other people played the meta more b/c I fel like other people could probably make better use out of zard than I can. Moltres isn't used offensively very much, instead sets with morning sun are used the majority of the time so zard's competition is more blaziken than moltres, really.
So tops runs endflail? I never tried that, I only tried SD + Rock Slide which was dong. Registeel is everywhere though and I've no idea how you'd go about luring it. You can use Marowak to abuse it but it's not something you lure very easily.
Steelix is the best anti-tauros/dodrio but it does like almost nothing beyond that so it's like why not just use regirock (which also checks fires) or registeel (which does a ton of things and can run different sets) or the other normal resists which aren't so sturdy [rhydon omastar solrock scizor]. It's also super passive and does like nothing back.
Dodrio has some cool tools [bp, qa, early burd], but I always felt it was outclassed by tauros largely [given that I barely use endrev/flail stuff though]. It's not like it's bad just it's not that easy to justify over tauros at least in the way I played the meta. If more of your suggested EndRev/Flailers got used then I'd say it has more of a niche though.
Chansey is good for obvious reasons. Also the fact that even stuff like CB Tauros barely 2HKO [it can take an Adamant CB Return, hit Softboiled or COUNTER or Twave and then find another opportunity to heal up later] not much really breaks it on its own, it's just super reliable. And whilst Stoss isn't an amazing attack it's enough.
Regirock / Scizor are pretty borderline. I'm kinda fond of scizor's agipass set tho. Regirock is largely a worse registeel, not like moltres answers are hard to find.
Dusclops: when the most common spinner in the tier smacks it hard, and the second most common spinner uses it for spikes bait, and it can't really touch any of the spikers, and there's houndoom which limits its usability and moveslots even further, it's just not that good. Esp w/o many endrev/flailers in how I play the tier [so again if they become more common then it becomes a better mon]. Missy can at least hurt cloyster with tbolt [and comes close to the 2hko on hound with hp water. given hound is usually modest though] and haunter is toxic immune whilst doing most of the same stuff. I feel weird using any and all of those mons tbh lol they are all hugely flawed.
Sceptile: I like it a fair bit and it is kinda cool, it's just a little hard to build with and I'm sure there's more sets I should be running other than subseed [which is decent]. If the meta changes making its speed more useful or if its other sets [idk what] turn out to be really effective it'd not be hard for it to be a part of the tier.
Zangoose. Ngl ur probably pretty right on that. Great speed + power + SD + EQ / Shadow Ball. Yea... then again Ursaring seemed kinda insane and the only thing Zangoose really has over it is the extra speed [but that is a big deal]. Been kinda meaning to test it.
Arcanine: Molt isn't that offensively threatening tho. There's already stuff like Vaporeon and Chansey that can wall it for almost forever. And it doesn't beat the more important offensive fire, which is SubCM Entei. What else does it do? I mean ES is nice if there's EndRev/Flail abuse I'll concede. So u get why I've not used it for that lol.
With Blaziken its power has just been absolutely awful in my experience, when trying Mixed and SD it just gets walled by Vaporeon easily, and stuff lke Dragonite being super present makes its life a lot harder. Sub + Rev sounds good but I wonder, what does it do exactly tha medicham doesn't other than have a slightly better defensive typing? I do kinda agree that we're probably not really using Reversal abuse enough, it's something I'm super unfamiliar with so I don't know how to really build or play with that style of set yet unfortunately. But for non-reversal sets, I feel like it has plenty of checks and it's not like it switches in easily b/c it's frail and its typing isn't that great considering its stats. Also, stuff like Donphan and Quagsire are also great checks. And uncommon stuff like Weezing and Slowbro handle it. I feel like its 2 STABs miss a lot and that it can only hit one or two of its counters with any given coverage move [rock slide, eq, hp grass, hp ice, etc] and having a physical and special stab as well as speed that appreciates a lot of investment really limits how powerful it actually is. Maybe it's still decent but just needs really specific well thought out building, but it's always felt super dificult to use in my experience.
Charizard also has the same kind of issue of being unable to really make up for the limitations of its coverage. It has greater unpredictability and can be potentially stupidly powerful, but again it's very difficult to build with and use in battle in my experience. I wish other people played the meta more b/c I fel like other people could probably make better use out of zard than I can. Moltres isn't used offensively very much, instead sets with morning sun are used the majority of the time so zard's competition is more blaziken than moltres, really.
So tops runs endflail? I never tried that, I only tried SD + Rock Slide which was dong. Registeel is everywhere though and I've no idea how you'd go about luring it. You can use Marowak to abuse it but it's not something you lure very easily.
Steelix is the best anti-tauros/dodrio but it does like almost nothing beyond that so it's like why not just use regirock (which also checks fires) or registeel (which does a ton of things and can run different sets) or the other normal resists which aren't so sturdy [rhydon omastar solrock scizor]. It's also super passive and does like nothing back.
Dodrio has some cool tools [bp, qa, early burd], but I always felt it was outclassed by tauros largely [given that I barely use endrev/flail stuff though]. It's not like it's bad just it's not that easy to justify over tauros at least in the way I played the meta. If more of your suggested EndRev/Flailers got used then I'd say it has more of a niche though.
Chansey is good for obvious reasons. Also the fact that even stuff like CB Tauros barely 2HKO [it can take an Adamant CB Return, hit Softboiled or COUNTER or Twave and then find another opportunity to heal up later] not much really breaks it on its own, it's just super reliable. And whilst Stoss isn't an amazing attack it's enough.
Regirock / Scizor are pretty borderline. I'm kinda fond of scizor's agipass set tho. Regirock is largely a worse registeel, not like moltres answers are hard to find.
Dusclops: when the most common spinner in the tier smacks it hard, and the second most common spinner uses it for spikes bait, and it can't really touch any of the spikers, and there's houndoom which limits its usability and moveslots even further, it's just not that good. Esp w/o many endrev/flailers in how I play the tier [so again if they become more common then it becomes a better mon]. Missy can at least hurt cloyster with tbolt [and comes close to the 2hko on hound with hp water. given hound is usually modest though] and haunter is toxic immune whilst doing most of the same stuff. I feel weird using any and all of those mons tbh lol they are all hugely flawed.
Sceptile: I like it a fair bit and it is kinda cool, it's just a little hard to build with and I'm sure there's more sets I should be running other than subseed [which is decent]. If the meta changes making its speed more useful or if its other sets [idk what] turn out to be really effective it'd not be hard for it to be a part of the tier.
Zangoose. Ngl ur probably pretty right on that. Great speed + power + SD + EQ / Shadow Ball. Yea... then again Ursaring seemed kinda insane and the only thing Zangoose really has over it is the extra speed [but that is a big deal]. Been kinda meaning to test it.
Arcanine: Molt isn't that offensively threatening tho. There's already stuff like Vaporeon and Chansey that can wall it for almost forever. And it doesn't beat the more important offensive fire, which is SubCM Entei. What else does it do? I mean ES is nice if there's EndRev/Flail abuse I'll concede. So u get why I've not used it for that lol.
supercube64
Member
I think the other issue is that 2U and UU are very different. 2U has a mixture of Bl and UU pokemon. So some Pokemon that would normally be good in certain meta's (particularly smogon) might not be good in another. I can kind of see where M dragon is coming from though. I know I stated this previously in the Skype group chat, but again the main issue is that our playerbase is simply too small to fully test and develop certain meta's.
About Medicham... that should be A rank at least lol
The only real counters to the CB set are like Weezing, max def Venusaur and maybe Slowbro, and in a tier where Chansey and Registeel are common, thats a huge pain for any defensive team, especially when paired with Houndoom.
About Medicham vs Blaziken, they are both very dangerous reversalers, but they are even more scary when played together, because what can stop one will not be able to stop the other. Ofc there are ways to stop them, Im not saying Blaziken is broken. However is a huge threat you must be prepared for.
Charizard doesnt need extra coverage to be very good tbh. It can take multiple roles in a team: special sweeper with the petaya set, a lure with sub toxic fblast fpunch/hp grass/hp ice, a bd set...
About Fighting Mons: Blaziken, Medicham, Breloom. They all 3 could run SD sets, CB set, Blaziken and Medicham can use a Reversal set, Blaziken can use a mixed set to lure some common Fighting resists, Breloom can sleep or threaten with FPunch... Weezing, Slowbro, Venusaur, Moltres, Dnite, Crobat, Dusclops and Missy are the best answers to these mons. However, Houndoom is a mon that works really well with these mons (CB Cham + Houndoom combo seems really dangerous), because it either removes from the game or severely weakens a lot of those mons (50% to Weezing with Pursuit, 80% to Slowbro, 40% to physical Venusaur, can Toxic Moltres and Dnite, destroys ghosts). Crobat is probably the best Breloom counter, but it will take a lot of damage from Fire Blast Blaziken or Rock Slide Medicham (although is probs the best counter of Reversal Cham) and it really struggles in a world of powerful rock and steel mons.
Bulky Dnite can take 1 Rslide from CBCham if it uses a full defensive set and its slower, but is a great switching vs non HP Ice Ken and Loom.
Basically, CBCham + Houndoom is one of the best offensive combos of the tier.
About normals: Tauros, Dodrio, Zangoose. Tauros and Dodrio have some big problems in this tier: they cannot touch Steelix and Regirock, and they do little damage to other rock and steel mons like Rhydon and Steelix. Why Dodrio is not outclassed by Tauros?
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 189-223 (49.2 - 58%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 189-223 (49.2 - 58%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Note that Dodrio doesnt really need Jolly, unlike Tauros (unless you want to be slower than +speed base 100 mons).
Zangoose can beat those rocks/steels, and is really good vs defensive teams with a SD + lefties set, and very good vs offensive teams with a Flail set.
About Houndoom: I think it is probably the best mon in this tier (should be S at least). Really good typing, can lure waters and bulky fires (Moltres) with Toxic, removes the counters of huge threats like CBCham and makes reversalers job easier, removes ghosts for an easy spin, can Roar away offensive fire sweepers (Entei) and to spread Spikes damage, it makes Petaya Zard set useless (although SubPunch will kill it).
About Arcanine: It has intimidate, ES to RK flailers and reversalers, can wall fire types (it can also roar sub cm entei away). It is a very solid defensive fire mon.
About spikers: Cloyster is better than Omastar in nearly every situation. Omastar should not be in this tier tbh.
About Registeel: Registeel is very good, but its also a big set up fodder for some of the biggest offensive threats of the tier (Fighting mons, Fire mons like Charizard, Marowak...). It shouldnt be S.
About some walls being ranked too low: Weezing (destroys most physical sweepers in the tier), Slowbro (beats most of the threatening sweepers of the tier, including Fires, Fighting mons, Normal sweepers except maybe Zangoose, Marowak...)
About Nidoking and Solrock: They seem to be completely out of place, especially Solrock, when Regirock completely outclasses it (unless you really need a DDnite check, and it still loses to Iron Tail, so its not a good check).
About Kabutops: Yes, its walled by Registeel, but thats easily abusable, because a lot of mons can easily set up on Registeel. Kabutops shines in the late game when Registeel is weakened or dead.
The only real counters to the CB set are like Weezing, max def Venusaur and maybe Slowbro, and in a tier where Chansey and Registeel are common, thats a huge pain for any defensive team, especially when paired with Houndoom.
About Medicham vs Blaziken, they are both very dangerous reversalers, but they are even more scary when played together, because what can stop one will not be able to stop the other. Ofc there are ways to stop them, Im not saying Blaziken is broken. However is a huge threat you must be prepared for.
Charizard doesnt need extra coverage to be very good tbh. It can take multiple roles in a team: special sweeper with the petaya set, a lure with sub toxic fblast fpunch/hp grass/hp ice, a bd set...
About Fighting Mons: Blaziken, Medicham, Breloom. They all 3 could run SD sets, CB set, Blaziken and Medicham can use a Reversal set, Blaziken can use a mixed set to lure some common Fighting resists, Breloom can sleep or threaten with FPunch... Weezing, Slowbro, Venusaur, Moltres, Dnite, Crobat, Dusclops and Missy are the best answers to these mons. However, Houndoom is a mon that works really well with these mons (CB Cham + Houndoom combo seems really dangerous), because it either removes from the game or severely weakens a lot of those mons (50% to Weezing with Pursuit, 80% to Slowbro, 40% to physical Venusaur, can Toxic Moltres and Dnite, destroys ghosts). Crobat is probably the best Breloom counter, but it will take a lot of damage from Fire Blast Blaziken or Rock Slide Medicham (although is probs the best counter of Reversal Cham) and it really struggles in a world of powerful rock and steel mons.
Bulky Dnite can take 1 Rslide from CBCham if it uses a full defensive set and its slower, but is a great switching vs non HP Ice Ken and Loom.
Basically, CBCham + Houndoom is one of the best offensive combos of the tier.
About normals: Tauros, Dodrio, Zangoose. Tauros and Dodrio have some big problems in this tier: they cannot touch Steelix and Regirock, and they do little damage to other rock and steel mons like Rhydon and Steelix. Why Dodrio is not outclassed by Tauros?
252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 189-223 (49.2 - 58%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 189-223 (49.2 - 58%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Note that Dodrio doesnt really need Jolly, unlike Tauros (unless you want to be slower than +speed base 100 mons).
Zangoose can beat those rocks/steels, and is really good vs defensive teams with a SD + lefties set, and very good vs offensive teams with a Flail set.
About Houndoom: I think it is probably the best mon in this tier (should be S at least). Really good typing, can lure waters and bulky fires (Moltres) with Toxic, removes the counters of huge threats like CBCham and makes reversalers job easier, removes ghosts for an easy spin, can Roar away offensive fire sweepers (Entei) and to spread Spikes damage, it makes Petaya Zard set useless (although SubPunch will kill it).
About Arcanine: It has intimidate, ES to RK flailers and reversalers, can wall fire types (it can also roar sub cm entei away). It is a very solid defensive fire mon.
About spikers: Cloyster is better than Omastar in nearly every situation. Omastar should not be in this tier tbh.
About Registeel: Registeel is very good, but its also a big set up fodder for some of the biggest offensive threats of the tier (Fighting mons, Fire mons like Charizard, Marowak...). It shouldnt be S.
About some walls being ranked too low: Weezing (destroys most physical sweepers in the tier), Slowbro (beats most of the threatening sweepers of the tier, including Fires, Fighting mons, Normal sweepers except maybe Zangoose, Marowak...)
About Nidoking and Solrock: They seem to be completely out of place, especially Solrock, when Regirock completely outclasses it (unless you really need a DDnite check, and it still loses to Iron Tail, so its not a good check).
About Kabutops: Yes, its walled by Registeel, but thats easily abusable, because a lot of mons can easily set up on Registeel. Kabutops shines in the late game when Registeel is weakened or dead.
I mostly agree with what u wrote / the bits I'm not sure on I think are better hashed out through testing rather than theorymon
we did have Hound in S at one point, but the pokemon we used and the way we played adapted around it pretty heavily. I feel like the use of the stuff I've not really been using [fighters, zard, zangoose, etc] might change that a bit tho. That being said in the matches I was playing when I was last actively playing the tier, Houndoom almost never did anything. The partners u suggested probably changes that dynamic a bit.
Dragonite is kinda obviously the best mon in the tier
we did have Hound in S at one point, but the pokemon we used and the way we played adapted around it pretty heavily. I feel like the use of the stuff I've not really been using [fighters, zard, zangoose, etc] might change that a bit tho. That being said in the matches I was playing when I was last actively playing the tier, Houndoom almost never did anything. The partners u suggested probably changes that dynamic a bit.Fair enough. It still has competition obviously with Moltres as a defensive fire but I see what it does. I think it'll depend on how the meta shapes out how useful it's gonna be.
Cloy doesn't really wall anything (I guess it can check DDNite if you can fit Ice Beam), at least Oma provides a normal resist as well as a check to various fire-types and stuff. I tend to say pair it with other physically bulky stuff like Moltres / Donphan to make up for the fact it's a less sturdy normal resist. Also, it can abuse Rain Dance to a limited extent.
The standard set is Twave / SubPunch / Rock Slide. Marowak / Nidoking are like the only things that really come in on that comfortably, lol. And that's its best set. Gonna outright disagree with u there. Basically everything other than Wak needs to come in on a double.
Maybe? With more fighters around, y.
DDNite usually runs Heal Bell but yea it sorta combines DDNite check with being a normal resist with being fairly powerful with CB - and Explosion and BP are really cool tools. It does feel lackluster defensively sometimes though for sure. Kinda on the fence on it but i'm not sure I'd go as far as you on it. Nidoking is the best thing other than Marowak to abuse Registeel, it has a great speed tier, its decent alongside other CBers like Dnite Tauros etc. Decent movepool, power, not much really walls it (I guess Weezing? So if that gets more common I guess it's an issue for Nido)
See my previous point.
"About Arcanine: It has intimidate, ES to RK flailers and reversalers, can wall fire types (it can also roar sub cm entei away). It is a very solid defensive fire mon." - I hadn't thought of using it defensively. Time to theorymon! Also, I realized another important use of ES: Diglett. Right now Diglett has the means to delete a decent number of Pokemon from full HP, including any grounded Fire-type, Lanturn, Exeggutor, Breloom and Jynx (speed tie against Timid though), which means Arcanine is the only grounded Fire-type that isn't dead the instant Diglett comes in (unless Houndoom starts running Timid, which is still a speed tie and also means Houndoom becomes less threatening to everything else).
EDIT: Wow, Arcanine is insane. Physically defensive Arcanine is as bulky as a STEELIX after intimidate. This thing is amazing.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Steelix: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
For that matter, I'm not sure why Diglett hasn't been used yet particularly with anything that hates Houndoom. At the moment it's pretty anti-meta and you can even lead with it and instantly turn the game into a 6v5 if you match up against Lanturn, Breloom or Houndoom. Of course, it's very limited and can't switch into virtually anything except a predicted Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave from Lanturn, but it's extremely dangerous to some common Pokemon and can still guarantee revenge kills on weakened stuff.
Also, DDPass Smeargle is legit. Still working out how legit, but I've paired it with things like Ursaring (Chesto Resto I've found is awesome for recovery/ignoring sleepers/paralysis removal when speed is needed over Guts boost) and Rhydon and it's pretty scary especially when you consider that unlike BDPass, Smeargle can repeat it throughout a match, can carry an item like Mental Herb/Lum Berry and has a free slot for Roar to prevent disruption, and that free slot can also be used for all sorts of stuff including Spikes, Explosion, Super Fang, Destiny Bond, etc. (edit: also realized you could use ESpeed if you need something to cover End/Sub+Berry sets)
Tauros is usually Adamant right now, and with the right move it can beat every one of the Pokemon you listed. EQ and HP Ghost are standard on it, usually with DE and Return but sometimes with Rock Tomb for defensive Moltres. Tauros needs spikes for Regirock and Steelix (Steelix still has a good chance of surviving though if at full health), but otherwise unless they are heavily invested in Defense Tauros can break through.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Steelix: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Steelix: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 212-250 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 163-192 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (no leftovers)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 163-192 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 256-302 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Solrock: 181-214 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 209-246 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Speaking of Spikes, that is something I realized troubles EndReversal/Flail (after Spikes damage+3 Subs Reversal/Flail only reach 100BP), I presume Spin support is mandatory when using those sets?
Solrock isn't completely outclassed by Regirock when you consider Fighting neutrality/Ground immunity and Baton Pass. Iron Tail on Dragonite also has to compete with better moves like HP Flying, EQ, Focus Punch, Dragon Dance and Heal Bell, and other niche moves like HP Rock (for Articuno/Defensive Moltres), Thunder and Toxic. Having used both, I personally find Solrock mediocre though and feel like Regirock usually accomplishes more, so I agree it is out of place and should be lower.
EDIT: Wow, Arcanine is insane. Physically defensive Arcanine is as bulky as a STEELIX after intimidate. This thing is amazing.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Steelix: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
For that matter, I'm not sure why Diglett hasn't been used yet particularly with anything that hates Houndoom. At the moment it's pretty anti-meta and you can even lead with it and instantly turn the game into a 6v5 if you match up against Lanturn, Breloom or Houndoom. Of course, it's very limited and can't switch into virtually anything except a predicted Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave from Lanturn, but it's extremely dangerous to some common Pokemon and can still guarantee revenge kills on weakened stuff.
Also, DDPass Smeargle is legit. Still working out how legit, but I've paired it with things like Ursaring (Chesto Resto I've found is awesome for recovery/ignoring sleepers/paralysis removal when speed is needed over Guts boost) and Rhydon and it's pretty scary especially when you consider that unlike BDPass, Smeargle can repeat it throughout a match, can carry an item like Mental Herb/Lum Berry and has a free slot for Roar to prevent disruption, and that free slot can also be used for all sorts of stuff including Spikes, Explosion, Super Fang, Destiny Bond, etc. (edit: also realized you could use ESpeed if you need something to cover End/Sub+Berry sets)
Tauros is usually Adamant right now, and with the right move it can beat every one of the Pokemon you listed. EQ and HP Ghost are standard on it, usually with DE and Return but sometimes with Rock Tomb for defensive Moltres. Tauros needs spikes for Regirock and Steelix (Steelix still has a good chance of surviving though if at full health), but otherwise unless they are heavily invested in Defense Tauros can break through.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Steelix: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Steelix: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 212-250 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 163-192 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (no leftovers)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 163-192 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 256-302 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Solrock: 181-214 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 209-246 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Speaking of Spikes, that is something I realized troubles EndReversal/Flail (after Spikes damage+3 Subs Reversal/Flail only reach 100BP), I presume Spin support is mandatory when using those sets?
Solrock isn't completely outclassed by Regirock when you consider Fighting neutrality/Ground immunity and Baton Pass. Iron Tail on Dragonite also has to compete with better moves like HP Flying, EQ, Focus Punch, Dragon Dance and Heal Bell, and other niche moves like HP Rock (for Articuno/Defensive Moltres), Thunder and Toxic. Having used both, I personally find Solrock mediocre though and feel like Regirock usually accomplishes more, so I agree it is out of place and should be lower.
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Paraplegic
Member
noming medicham to a- at the least for that ridiculous lum bulkup set you discovered Disaster Area
I didnt bother saving any of the replays but I think you know as well as I that that thing actually deserves to be up there.
I didnt bother saving any of the replays but I think you know as well as I that that thing actually deserves to be up there.