I feel like maybe Houndoom should go down to A+. It's great but now a lot of the meta's adapting to it (e.g. HP Water on the Psychics is pretty common)
maybe quagsire should go down to B?
maybe quagsire should go down to B?
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- Thread starter Disaster Area
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Where's my friend Medicham...
It can be added. I've not really managed to make it work. What do you suggest for its rank, and how do you build with it? Also, great to see you taking an interest
I think it's marginally better than Yama / Champ / Loom. Obviously Loom has spore which separates it from the discussion but Medicham is faster than all of the three, stronger than them, and has BP to boot. The building is similar to loom but you don't need to remove Dusclops as sball murks it, even non banded if you have a spike or 2 two down (same for all the fighting resists in this tier). some main issues are obviously it has legit 0 bulk and doesn't check stuff unlike the former 2 fighters but can: 1) hit much harder 2) has better coverage 3) faster 4) actually breaks stall.
Ps: knock is insignificant to the point I'm making I think.
Pss: Sets can be Band or Salac Endure (Brick Break / Focus Punch / Shadow Ball / Baton Pass / Rock Slide [Dnite] / Endure / Bulk Up are all options)
B-
Ps: knock is insignificant to the point I'm making I think.
Pss: Sets can be Band or Salac Endure (Brick Break / Focus Punch / Shadow Ball / Baton Pass / Rock Slide [Dnite] / Endure / Bulk Up are all options)
B-
proposing these changes
B -> B-
it has 4MSS, low stats, a typing that doesn't differentiate it very much from other spikers, and offers fairly little synergy. Whilst it's an ok rain check, better stuff does it not carrying spikes (and not like running 2 waters is bad in this tier) and then some. It fits on certain builds but it should be B- or maybe lower.
A -> B+ / B
as a Spiker its only advantage over oma is higher physical defense, rapid spin, being a better DDNite check, and not getting really hurt by Tauros' EQ. It has hound issues and some 4MSS. It's an ok mon sure but it really doesn't offer much defensively whatsoever, has a lot of problems, and doesn't have any useful resistances. All in all, it's an anti-physical without physical weaknesses that are too major here, and a ton of utility moves, but lack of reliable recovery, houndoom issues, and just general absence of much other usefulness makes it only mid to high B imo. It's kinda like forre in GSC and ADV 1U, but with a little more (potential?) variety and no normal-type resistance.
A+ -> S
Chansey's about the only thing really keeping it in check. I'm starting to even consider that it might be broken.
Vs Stall: chansey is your best option to handle it. Otherwise maybe registeel, and then a ton of things that check it kinda weakly [steelix scizor gardevoir solrock vaporeon moltres articuno etc etc] that you don't want as your main answer(s) on stall.
Vs offense: you have offensive pressure and can abuse its frailty, but it is guaranteed to get at least one good hit off and can clean kinda easily. Nothing outspeeding it other than the very rare swellow/crobat (the former only really seeing use because of zam)
Vs balance: you need to run awkward checks (espy+swellow?, steelix+?, hound+?...) most of which are a bit boned by common sets or don't resist psychic or so on having issues that make them not very suitable.
maybe suspect worthy
Could also see more shifts [tauros still wrecks, blaze is pretty slow, molt is super versatile and scary, oma is best spiker, donphan and sceptile deserve to go up, what about slowbro?]
it has 4MSS, low stats, a typing that doesn't differentiate it very much from other spikers, and offers fairly little synergy. Whilst it's an ok rain check, better stuff does it not carrying spikes (and not like running 2 waters is bad in this tier) and then some. It fits on certain builds but it should be B- or maybe lower.
as a Spiker its only advantage over oma is higher physical defense, rapid spin, being a better DDNite check, and not getting really hurt by Tauros' EQ. It has hound issues and some 4MSS. It's an ok mon sure but it really doesn't offer much defensively whatsoever, has a lot of problems, and doesn't have any useful resistances. All in all, it's an anti-physical without physical weaknesses that are too major here, and a ton of utility moves, but lack of reliable recovery, houndoom issues, and just general absence of much other usefulness makes it only mid to high B imo. It's kinda like forre in GSC and ADV 1U, but with a little more (potential?) variety and no normal-type resistance.
Chansey's about the only thing really keeping it in check. I'm starting to even consider that it might be broken.
Vs Stall: chansey is your best option to handle it. Otherwise maybe registeel, and then a ton of things that check it kinda weakly [steelix scizor gardevoir solrock vaporeon moltres articuno etc etc] that you don't want as your main answer(s) on stall.
Vs offense: you have offensive pressure and can abuse its frailty, but it is guaranteed to get at least one good hit off and can clean kinda easily. Nothing outspeeding it other than the very rare swellow/crobat (the former only really seeing use because of zam)
Vs balance: you need to run awkward checks (espy+swellow?, steelix+?, hound+?...) most of which are a bit boned by common sets or don't resist psychic or so on having issues that make them not very suitable.
maybe suspect worthy
Could also see more shifts [tauros still wrecks, blaze is pretty slow, molt is super versatile and scary, oma is best spiker, donphan and sceptile deserve to go up, what about slowbro?]
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Agreeing with pretty much everything you say here. As far as future shifts, the main ones i can see are tauros and moltres. Moltres is just a fairly safe mon that always puts in work in my experience. It's incredibly strong offensively while also capable of running more defensive sets. It's quite difficult to switch in to and makes a great status spreader. I think it could easily be A+. Tauros is pretty 1 dimensional but incredibly dangerous. once normal resists are out of the way or weakened by a predicted eq it becomes very hard to switch in to, and forces a ton of sacrifices if played right. It can also check a number of attackers thanks to its speed and raw power. I haven't tried anything but choice band and I think anything but that set would be less than optimal on most teams but that set alone makes it worthy of A+ imo.
Discussed a ton of changes with Cowboy Dan and this is the first proper update following the loss of zam and espy.
S -> A+ Whilst still really good, the metagame has adapted in ways a little more unkind to it. Pokémon such as Hariyama are more common, and the Pokémon that houndoom can prey on are usually fairly well prepared for it now; all this isn't to say that Hound isn't both very useful and helps limit Pokémon such as Exeggutor and Gardevoir, but it no longer feels so scarily metagame defining as it previously did.
A -> S Moltres has turned out to be one of the most versatile threats in the tier. Offensively fire is a very dangerous stab which combined with its access to toxic and Will-O-Wisp makes it a great status spreader and sun abuser. It also has a usable attack stat with which to abuse its flying STAB with a surprise Choice Band set. Furthermore its strong bulk and access to morning sun give it a defensive niche, and thanks to its typing it is able to counter a number of physical attackers including registeel, and the ever powerful dragon dance dragonite.
A -> A+ Tauros is blazing fast, with a useful ability and respectable enough bulk (helped too by Intimidate) to not be a complete glass cannon; it's a scary attacker with a great STAB and good complementary coverage. It is able to smack normal resistances very hard with Earthquake and Hidden Power Ghost, and makes a fantastic cleaner that can wear down its checks throughout the game. Its speed and power let it check a number of offensive threats throughout the game.
A -> B The blazing kicking chicken has yet to impress. Its frailty, limited defensive typing, and slightly low speed all serve to make what sounds like an awesome threat on paper a really ineffective choice much of the time. The very common Vaporeon makes a fantastic answer to it and it has few switch-in opportunities; whilst it could set up swords dance, it's a very easy Pokémon to revenge kill (forcing it to lose its boosts), it's almost forced to go mixed in any set. All in all it ends up being a bit of a momentum sap against offensive teams without doing great damage to more defensive ones.
B+ -> A Registeel's amazing bulk and solid typing makes it a solid pick on a number of teams. With Tauros around, a normal resist is a good idea to have, and registeel is just about the most reliable one in the tier. It is also capable of checking a number of other pokemon including rain abusers such as kingdra as it can threaten them with status and takes their attacks fairly well. Finally it has a number of movepool options including toxic, thunder wave, explosion and curse that make it a versatile threat able to customize itself for its team's needs.
B+ -> B- Whilst there were initial fears a while back that it would be too strong, it's proven that so long as defensive teams adequately prepare it's not especially good at breaking stall. Furthermore, it's difficult to build with. It's fairly useless versus offense, making it even more burdensome.
B+ -> A+ the only thing that isn't going for it is that it can't quite fit everything it wants in one set (ice beam and toxic and stab and wish and protect...) but it's a really effective wall that handles multiple threats with ease, and supports its team reliably.
B -> A- Articuno is a great Dnite counter, even taking a CB Focus Punch with ease. It has a reasonably wide movepool, good stats all around, and hits pretty hard. Its ability is quite complementary too. Heal Bell, Roar, and Reflect in particular are stand-out moves that it makes great use of.
B -> A Donphan has found a niche for itself as one of the only rapid spinners in the tier outside of Cloyster. Its ability to threaten some of the main spin blockers makes it fairly reliable in this role, and its amazing physical bulk + solid defensive typing make it a nice pick for a number of teams.
B -> C+ whilst it has an appreciable niche couretsy of Spikes and its typing, its frailty and low offensive stats make it hard to add to a team and a weak choice in battle.
B -> B+ Fantastic speed, subseed, pretty devastating with spikes up. Whilst it's not the most easy Pokémon to fit it's fairly nice and pretty strong when it gets going.
B -> B+ it's a decent swords dancer, CBer (quick attack is good!), and can run agility or swords dance pass. All in all it's fairly versatile and that's part of its draw. Pair with a flying resist to help prevent CBNite from spamming HP Flying.
B -> A- where to start? such a cool mon, great anti-rain, leech + sleep is a ton of utility, sludge bomb helps it pressure chansey as well as destroy ludicolo. It's very consistent.
B- -> B it has a lot of issues in a lot of different matchups that stop it from doing a lot of things but on paper it has a lot going for it, and a cool movepool and okay stat spread too.
B- -> B+ like blaziken with worse typing and movepool and much more power.
B- -> B whilst difficult to perhaps put a finger on what its niche is (more offensive normal resist that resists fire but is weak to water and not immune to toxic I guess?) it's a pretty good mon.
B- -> C with zam and espy gone the speed is much less relevant. Fast guts CBer and insane speed in general keep it on the rankings.
B- -> C since it can't really hit anything reduced to bp gimmicks. will probably be re-evaluated later but it's very difficult to use or build with at this formative stage.
B- -> B has a couple of handy resistances/immunities and a good movepool, as well as amazing physical bulk. Has to be tailored to its team generally.
B- -> A- This pokémon is awesomely anti-meta, with usable offensive power, great bulk, and is difficult to switch into. Lots of common Pokémon such as vaporeon, articuno, houndoom, and moltres provide opportunites to some extent letting it come in. Whilst its lower physical defense, lack of recovery outside of leftovers, and vulnerability to status limit it, it's a menace for many offensive teams, particularly those which are more specially based or rely on vaporeon.
C+ -> B whilst challenging to support, it's a terror if it gets in and can be a nuisance even to well-prepared teams.
C+ -> C holds a couple of small niches. Not a great pick currently.
C+ -> B Hariyama's combination of great bulk and great attack make it a strong choice for a fighting type. It's able to go toe to toe against a number of pokemon in the tier and is quite effective against stall. Furthermore it has two great abilities to make use of, and some pretty nifty movepool options. Its lack of speed holds it back however.
C+ -> B- there's very few proper switch-ins to it, and given the opportunity it can wreak havoc. However, its multiple weaknesses and low speed hold back an insane STAB combo, movepool, and offensive stats.
C -> Unranked Not relevant really with dnite around.
C -> B- Charizard doesn't provide much defensively to a team but the immense power of both its Belly Drum and Petaya based sets make it an incredibly dangerous threat
C -> B- fast psychic with LK but flaws. Could go further up after greater testing
C -> C+ it just doens't die and it also resists ground and has reflect.
C -> B Whilst it's more Houndoom weak and doesn't have access to Wisp and is a bit less bulky than Dusclops, it's still a fairly reliable spinblocker, and furthermore one that can force out cloyster with its powerful thunderbolt.
Unranked -> C+ It wallbreaks to quite an extent. can't clean which gives tauros a lot of niche over it but it is really powerful. Has to hit and run with CB because of truant but that's still pretty viable.
Unranked -> C physical rain attacker
Unranked -> C lots of stuff appreciate speed pass
Unranked -> C Insomnia, Wish, great bulk on both ends (spdef in particular), can just about shrug off hound.
Untested:
Untested:
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Proposing some more changes
A- -> A I feel like it has a lot more impact in the match than most of the rest of A- and most of A too. It's so awesome, wtih toxic immunity, good mixed bulk, water resistance, poison STAB for Ludicolo and subseeders, leech seed, and sleep powder. It's awesome at stealing the momentum and I feel it's an absolutely awesome support Pokémon on balanced teams.
B- -> B I feel like it's supremely mediocre. Every team needs to be prepared for its curse set and then you can basically forget about it.
B- -> B I feel like it's a lot more passive than registeel with its lack of thunder wave and its lower special bulk and water weakness gives it a lot fewer opportunities to switch in. It also doesn't punish Tauros's Return very well I feel. Explosion is a saving grace which is useful in matchups without dangerous normals around for it to check, especially since ghosts are rare and rock/steel types don't make a good switch-in other than CB solrock, which you could run HP Steel to hit. Feels like about as bad of a CBer as Scizor. Trades Quick Attack for Explosion.
B- -> B+ this thing is really threatening
B- -> B once you know hot to support it, it works nicely
C -> C+ the twave set is ok, it's at least above the various mid C stuff which is super niche, it's like a lanturn with slight differences (dark / electric weak but resists psychic and fighting, more physically focussed, no SE STAB for Cloy [Psychic can sometimes 2HKO when fully invested though]). The set I use is Surf / Thunder Wave / Psychic / Ice Beam. It's a decent non-CB DNite answer (like Quagsire).
Untested -> C it's mediocre
Untested -> C+ provisionally, SubCM is ok, Sun needs testing. CM / Solar Beam give it niches over other fires, as well as great bulk and pressure
to Untested. Normal Resist without a Ground weakness, and Recover.
I could also see any of B drop to B- other than Tentacruel, Solrock, and Hariyama.
I could also see any of B drop to B- other than Tentacruel, Solrock, and Hariyama.
Moving these
Moving all of these to B- for now too
I'm going to move Moltres back down to A+. I don't think it's that dominant especially when Articuno competes hard for its slot on a team in a lot of cases.
Some more updates and thoughts
Updates:
A -> A- | Very little defensive value, Spikes aren't that key
A -> A- | Great Pokémon but not too key in the meta
A -> A+ | SubPunch is incredibly dangerous, and other sets are pretty awesome too. Very threatening and not too easy to prepare for or manage.
B+ -> B- | Offers little defensive synergy, is easy to handle defensively. Awesomely fast and one of the few decent Pokémon faster than Tauros, but still mediocre.
B+ -> B
B -> B+
B -> C | Almost no reason to use it, Roar is not very valuable, its typing is disadvantageous compared to Registeel except in the matchup versus Registeel.
B- -> B | Not easy to fit but still pretty dangerous.
B- -> B
C+ -> B- | Decent breaker, needs more testing.
C+ -> B- | Decent pivot, needs more testing.
C -> Unranked | Ineffective
Unranked -> C | Okay breaker / cleaner. Some kind of a middle ground between Slaking and Ursaring and Tauros.
A+ -> A | The metagame has adapted quite a bit around it being the main reason and with that it's much less dangerous.
A+ -> A | Simply, it feels a lot less dangerous than it used to. It struggles more versus slow bulky teams which are super popular.
B- -> C+
Needs further testing.
Updates:
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Changes, discussed w/ Sunny
A+ -> S | It's just that good
B -> B+
B -> B-
Some nominations for C+:
- Full Normal-spam counter with instant recovery, also can switch into and threaten a number of other Pokemon such as CB Dragonite (watch out for Focus Punch) and Houndoom to some extent.
- So far using Smeargle on HO I have gotten a good amount of wins, and with the set I've used it can be very hard to keep spikes from being set turn 1. With the ghost-type teammates available, it's not too hard to keep spikes up either. While there is still the question of just how viable HO and by extension Suicide Lead Smeargle is, it seems to be viable atleast to some degree.
- Misdreavus has more bulk, Imprison and Pain Split, while Haunter has Toxic-immunity, Grass resistance and Will-O-Wisp. On HO they fill pretty much the same role, spinblocking and beating Donphan and Cloyster keeping spikes up while having the speed to make Houndoom wary of switching in. I'm not sure which is the better spinblocker between the two (they might be evenly matched), but for now I think it should be tied with Smeargle's ranking.
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Moving
Adding
Moving
Moving
Moving
[02:20] Disaster Area: ok kind of in 2 minds about omastar and cloyster
[02:20] Disaster Area: both are fairly reliable but
[02:20] Enigami: I think Articuno in mid A is fine. I usually don't feel like Articuno is that big of a threat, until it ends up trashing my team.
[02:20] Disaster Area: they're really easy to stop spiking up in offensive MUs
[02:21] Disaster Area: omastar however has some sort of a defensive niche
[02:21] Disaster Area: whereas cloyster really doesn't, it just offers support
[02:21] Disaster Area: it's sorta like forretress and skarm, except oma is nowhere near as good as skarm lol
[02:21] Enigami: Technically it eats physical attacks pretty well?
[02:21] Disaster Area: technically yea but it doesn't do much back beyond supporty stuff
[02:21] Enigami: Yeah
[02:22] Disaster Area: and it has the sorta 4MSS where it can do what it wants but it doesn't even give it room to run ice beam even usually
[02:22] Disaster Area: since you need surf toxic spin and spikes
[02:22] Disaster Area: in almost every team
[02:22] Disaster Area: surf for hound, and toxic because if nothing else it always brings in the other cloy if there is one and it's not a MU you want to be on the wrong side of
[02:23] Enigami: I feel like B+ for both fits
[02:20] Disaster Area: both are fairly reliable but
[02:20] Enigami: I think Articuno in mid A is fine. I usually don't feel like Articuno is that big of a threat, until it ends up trashing my team.
[02:20] Disaster Area: they're really easy to stop spiking up in offensive MUs
[02:21] Disaster Area: omastar however has some sort of a defensive niche
[02:21] Disaster Area: whereas cloyster really doesn't, it just offers support
[02:21] Disaster Area: it's sorta like forretress and skarm, except oma is nowhere near as good as skarm lol
[02:21] Enigami: Technically it eats physical attacks pretty well?
[02:21] Disaster Area: technically yea but it doesn't do much back beyond supporty stuff
[02:21] Enigami: Yeah
[02:22] Disaster Area: and it has the sorta 4MSS where it can do what it wants but it doesn't even give it room to run ice beam even usually
[02:22] Disaster Area: since you need surf toxic spin and spikes
[02:22] Disaster Area: in almost every team
[02:22] Disaster Area: surf for hound, and toxic because if nothing else it always brings in the other cloy if there is one and it's not a MU you want to be on the wrong side of
[02:23] Enigami: I feel like B+ for both fits
removing
Stuff that needs further testing before we decide on 2U / 3U:
Final changes before we begin voting on 2U / 3U split!
C+ -> B-
Unranked -> B
B -> B-
Some further movements:
Marowak to A-
Medicham to B
Marowak to A-
Medicham to B
Proposing some further changes
S -> A+ Marowak makes it a lot more exploitable.
A+ -> A whilst a decent Pokémon it's passive in omparison with other Pokémon with which it competes for a team slot.
A -> A+ just a great Pokémon that's uber-reliable and can be very diffifcult to break.
A- -> B+ whilst it's decently sturdy, its spinning abilities aren't terribly necessitous and it's not especially great at using them. Marowak competes with a slot for it by making a team a lot stronger at breaking the other team, whilst Donphan merely provides defensive utility.
A- -> B Marowak is the first choice of hard hitter. Whilst it still has a valid niche it's a distinctly rarer sight now.
B+ -> B maybe? thoughts?
B+ -> B Registeel everywhere is not kind to it.
B+ -> B rain is just not very strong. It's not bad but it's rare and not all that dangerous.
B+ -> B ^
B -> B+
B -> B+
B -> B+
Registeel-> stay S i reckon. Marowak definitely makes it harder to use, but on the positive side they're not running Donphan. Registeel can potentially do really well versus these teams considering how Marowak has questionable defensive value.
Vaporeon -> I reckon its a worse Lanturn that can wish pass. Wish Passing in itself is a valuable niche, but i'm down with it going down to A. support
Venusaur -> Meta defining mon imo. There's no balance that does not want venusaur period. Compresses so many checks that it's basically indispensable. support
Donphan -> don't see why it should go down, it might be competing with Marowak for a spot, i reckon more defensive teams will want this as opposed to marowak. it can move down though considering how most stalls inspite of not really running dedicated spin blockers can still spin block by virtue of the team members they tend to carry.
Rhydon -> A worse marowak, that provides a normal/flying resist. Very good on para spam teams, but so is Marowak. Its niche got somewhat worse sadly. support
Eggy -> no idea, i don't use it enough.
Jynx -> relevant and forces stuff like molt to take sleep, and is possibly one of the better reasons for running entei. I don't use it enough sadly.
Kingdra/Ludicolo-> i think rain sucks. Support
Nidoking-> I think offenses might consider running this over marowak in some cases. fast/registeel check, excellent coverage fast enough to clean with band. support for B+ and maybe even A-
Quagsire -> eh...don't use it enough sadly. I think its decent not sure though
Solrock-> Excellent mon for offense. DryPass scouting, able to drag in mons to catch boom, and is also a normal/flying resist. CB Solrock is surprisingly strong.
Vaporeon -> I reckon its a worse Lanturn that can wish pass. Wish Passing in itself is a valuable niche, but i'm down with it going down to A. support
Venusaur -> Meta defining mon imo. There's no balance that does not want venusaur period. Compresses so many checks that it's basically indispensable. support
Donphan -> don't see why it should go down, it might be competing with Marowak for a spot, i reckon more defensive teams will want this as opposed to marowak. it can move down though considering how most stalls inspite of not really running dedicated spin blockers can still spin block by virtue of the team members they tend to carry.
Rhydon -> A worse marowak, that provides a normal/flying resist. Very good on para spam teams, but so is Marowak. Its niche got somewhat worse sadly. support
Eggy -> no idea, i don't use it enough.
Jynx -> relevant and forces stuff like molt to take sleep, and is possibly one of the better reasons for running entei. I don't use it enough sadly.
Kingdra/Ludicolo-> i think rain sucks. Support
Nidoking-> I think offenses might consider running this over marowak in some cases. fast/registeel check, excellent coverage fast enough to clean with band. support for B+ and maybe even A-
Quagsire -> eh...don't use it enough sadly. I think its decent not sure though
Solrock-> Excellent mon for offense. DryPass scouting, able to drag in mons to catch boom, and is also a normal/flying resist. CB Solrock is surprisingly strong.