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ADV 2U-L Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. DG9

    DG9 Member

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    I may have been off for a bit, but I see a few changes with the new viability.

    First, I think Ninjask should at least be ranked. If stuff like Smeargle can make it on viability, Ninjask can. It makes a decent stat passer, and Kristoph proved it to me. At least C.

    I think you are underselling Swellow a bit. Guts makes it a great status absorber, and punishes users. It is in a great speed tier, only having competition from very few things. While it may not have as spammable STABs as Dodrio (Drill Peck), it still fills the same roll as Dodrio. If they aren't the same rank, they should at least be one rank apart.

    Last thing, is a possible nomination for Alakazam to go to A+. Honestly the coverage Alakazam can run is amazing in this tier. It has access to Taunt to trouble stall, HP Water to beat the threatening Houndoom, Fire Punch to trouble steels, a powerful STAB, CM to set up and sweep teams, and so on. A great speed tier to beat offense, and a fun movepool to disrupt stall. I think that is enough to make it A+. And iirc if you really want to you can run Knock Off.

    All I have to say for now. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone!
     
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Ninjask just has issue with so many common phazers, and Smeargle does offer a lot in one mon (sleep, spikes, maybe BP). Good points about Swellow though, I'll move it to B- too.

    I think you're overrating Alakazam, and here's why. In order to be a threat to Chansey, it should run one of these two sets: Trick (pretty mpoor set as it's useless vs hound and ineffective in general), or Psychic/CM/Taunt or maybe Encore/Recover. If it's able to break Chansey (which is rare) then it's outright walled by Houndoom. If it doesn't run this, Chansey beats it, making it only effective versus opposing offense (or the rare chansey-less stall). Psychic/CM/HP Water/filler is really its main set, as it lets it get past hound, but it inherently will have a lot of issues if it runs that versus much else. It's fast, but very frail, and has only one free move for further coverage (Fire Punch, maybe another punch, Encore, Taunt, Recover...) it's great at breaking past offense but it has a dreadful number of flaws against stall, which is why I really don't feel like it's worthy of A+.
     
  3. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    another thing I've learned is that taunt recover zam doesn't have the HP to outright beat chansey without some prediction as seismic toss does more damage than it can really handle when it has to taunt in between every move. So that set may not be that good at all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
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  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    [​IMG] A- -> B+ just feeling like in practice it's never quite as good as on paper, it lacks roar, and I dunno I'm just not feeling it now.
    [​IMG]B -> B- sorta feel like it's easy to adapt around, has a lot of issues, in particular hound, and I think for now B- is fine for it.
    [​IMG]B- -> C+ maybe a cool mon but it suffers from being fairly slow, fairly frail, and pretty difficult to build around in my experience.
    [​IMG]B- -> C+ whilst it's an ok partner for a couple of mons like scizor, and an ok rain check, its typing's not massively helpful. It may be the best electric of the tier, but it's really only worthy of like C+ imo.
    [​IMG]C -> C+ having played with it a little, whilst it's pretty challenging to build with, the pure force of stats makes it pretty threatening. Could see it rise further if people show me how to make good use of it.
    [​IMG]C -> C+ the most offensive of the ultra-bulky physically defensive rock and steel mons (rhydon is frailer and crumbles more easily to special attacks) and it certainly has a wide movepool.
    [​IMG]C -> C+ dan convinced me i was underrating it (CB is also notable)
     
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  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Some more comments!

    [​IMG] Chansey to S possibly? I guess it is one-dimensional and somewhat abusable, but only so much wants to switch into toxic or the rare twave, and it stops almost every special attacker in the tier.
    [​IMG]Alakazam is actually pretty horrible for offensive teams to handle due to its high Speed. Whilst Chansey causes it major problems with few work-arounds, more offensive teams struggle more to check it. Hidden Power Water is commonly seen to beat Steelix and Houndoom, although running a combination of both Thunder Punch and Fire Punch is viable to tackle these. Registeel and Scizor are thorns in its side, but Fire Punch lets it annihilate the latter, and pressure the former (as well as Steelix), with those Steel types being key targets to weaken alongside heavy physical hitters such as Tauros. Encore is also a really cool option on it to make it an effective Espyjump check, and Taunt alongside Spikes lets it wear down Chansey for specially focussed teammates, as Dan showcased in game 1 of the adv 2u here be dragons finals. I think it warrants a move to A+ even in spite of its 4MSS (sort of). Psychic/HP Water/Encore/CM or possibly Recover is a really effective set.
    [​IMG]I think blaze is underexplored. The standard set of Fire Blast/HP Ice/Thunder Punch/Sky uppercut is really good and fits a lot and is a nice espyjump recipient, and has similar checks and counters to Dnite (fast psychics being a main exception). However, Swords Dance, EndRev, and maybe SubPunch or physically inclined mixed are all worthwhile exploring, having different capabilities compared to the specially mixed set that it usually runs. I'm also unsure about it in practice. That bulk is okay, but the speed is not that great. Tieing with Dnite sucks, lots of teams are mainly faster mons other than maybe a cloyster or slow qwilfish, or focussed on rain, making it pretty limited in those matchups. I really like it and offensively it's great, but I feel it's easier to handle than a lot of mons up this high, and its versatility's yet to prove as useful. I think it should stay A for now but I could definitely hear arguements moving it up or down.
    [​IMG]I really think CM HP Water Psychic BP is the main set for it now, but running HP Fire or Sub over HP Water, or Wish over CM, are viable choices too. Whilst it's fairly one-dimensional in some ways, it's pretty dangerous. The best answer is fast alakazam with encore, which it doesn't always carry, or defensive roarers - houndoom/steelix/vaporeon, which either eat hefty damage from psychic or from hp water. Jumpluff with Encore is a viable check to it too, as is Agilipass Scizor which can at least pass off a speed advantage in return. Then there's stuff like specially defensive moltres/articuno, dusclops, bslam or twave registeel, other psychic types (not really a fan of any here though), and Umbreon (but what does it do back??) that are available too. Chansey but doesn't do anything more than status. Its list of checks and counters is pretty small although varied, and Espeon itself has enough versatility to abuse or handle certain checks.
    [​IMG]Omastar has a great typing/ability/movepool and I think is fairly effective in practice but it isn't the bulkiest normal resist (with 3 or 4 at 150 or higher defense in the tier..), it's not a particularly special rain sweeper (the normal resist and spikes are all that's going for it, and the power but gorebyss does that a little better), and as a Spiker, a pure spikes set certainly has its limitations (especially with not being able to spin alongside - although oma+donphan is a good core actually) and it can't really do rain+spikes together all that well, imo. I just feel like while on paper it fills a lot of niches it's a mon I avoid using if I can because whilst it can role compress well, idk it always ends up a bit janky. How do other players feel about it?

    A-
    [​IMG]It provides a ground resist on rain (not super nessecary), has grass stab (cool but not really that big of a selling point) and it doesn't reaaaaally answer rain well enough on its own or handle opposing rain or whatever all that well. I just find it pretty underwhelming and not reliable enough. Thoughts?
    [​IMG]I think Moltres should go up. Houndoom is just super good at one thing, Blaze is versatile but doesn't do those things super especially well. Moltres, whilst rarely game-breaking, has a lot of good sets, and can mix and match pretty well. Fire Blast (or Flamethrower), Hidden Power Ice / Grass [or Flying on a CB set], Wisp or Toxic, Sub, Roar, Morning Sun, and Steel Wing and Sleep Talk for the CB set.. it's very versatile, and effective both as a fast specially offensive mon with status abuse, or as a physically or specially defensive mon (it can even counted DDnite pretty well with a physically defensive HP Ice set, though pack other checks too as a crit could be fatal), and CB to lure certain checks such as Chansey, Blaziken, and Houndoom (shout Enigami for finding that one). Overall, its good stats, surprisingly wide movepool (it is a little lacking in offensive coverage but it's made up for by other stuff), and impressive versatility make it worthy of mid A in my opinion.

    B+
    [​IMG]this could go to mid B. Whilst it's your go-to ghost type most of the time (missy's pretty flawed), it has 4MSS, Hound issues, lack of psychic resistance making it difficult to really use as a good zam/espy check, and it kinda dies if anything crits it. It's not that good of a spinblocker, as it doesn't have room for tbolt to hit cloyster..
    [​IMG]This could go up to A- possibly, I feel like it's kinda the best rain mon and it's somewhat versatile, with nice dual stabs. Also, if you toxic vap, a sub rain hp dragon water stab set beats it which entertains me.
    [​IMG]should this go up? I think the lack of synergy it provides/the one-dimensionality of it (though I'm considering like SubLeichi or something maybe) might keep it stuck in B+. It really is incredible though, it's the best fast normal type.
    [​IMG]Are we not using this any more? Have barely seen it in ages. It's kind of cool but should be used more maybe. The fact that breloom doesn't rly matter tho means it doesn't do much that chansey doesn't except pressure quagsire/leech seed/sleep/maybe roar stuff.

    B
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] these mons are cool use them more maybe

    B-
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]could see this go down to somewhere in C. Only advantage over tauros is early bird and grass resistance. Much less offensively deadly, can't touch the massively bulky rock/steel mons, and it's slower than tauros.
    [​IMG]Hound is such a huge issue, where should this be ranked? It's cool without hound around and I guess you can use it to specifically bait explode fires/hound/maybe chansey. Wanna see this in action if it's gonna stay as high as this.
    [​IMG]theoretically sound on paper, but kinda hard to go from oh this checks all these different things to finding a nice set for it. Houndoom's a bitch. Zam and Espeon are tricky to create a sensible consistent means to beat. It's nice vs rain... only set I've found from it so far that seems to work is CM Wish Protect Psychic as it can avoid getting manhandled by Hound too much, but eh. How do you build with hound weak mons? o.o
    [​IMG][​IMG]this and solrock need more discussion, anywhere from C to B+ could be home for these.
    [​IMG]this is looking up at higher ranks. It's really frail, but that insane speed and subseed is really nice. Just really frail is all. How does Swords Dance work on this thing?
    [​IMG]Kind of cool, and imo better than swellow. Its speed lets it outspeed 3 things, tauros, sceptile, and alakazam, all important in their own right. Espeon+this beats zam unless it runs the rare Taunt. It absorbs sleep nicely with sleep talk. Guts is cool and lets it be a little deadlier even if it somehow ends up taking para. Whilst it's not breaking stuff it can clean well enough, it has incredible speed, good offensive STABs, guts, etc. defniitely worthy of B-.
    [​IMG]Guuuuuuh. I love this mon. But how to build with it. MLpass is scary but easy to prepare for [taunter, offensive pressure, encore, fighting type that outspeeds is good too] and it kinda doesn't really do anything back to anything. How do you build with this?
    [​IMG]Again, how to build with this? I end up using like HP Ice on it, it's so weird. Kinda has hound issues slightly, has an interesting movepool but it kinda has offensive stats in the wrong places to answer stuff, as well as lacking just the right moves in its movepool.

    C+
    [​IMG]Regirock can go up to like B- it's pretty good and not total cloyster bait with a subpunch or CB set.

    could talk about the rest more but eh.
     
  6. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    I think omastar is alright, the rain + spikes set really isn't bad, it can act as a pretty good suicide spiker (if you're not an idiot with your spin blocker) and is also capable of sweeping. I don't see it moving up, but probably either keep it where it is or move it down to A-. i don't think it's quite a B range poke. That being said I would definitely move kingdra up to be in a similar range. Tauros is really good and definitely deserves to move up, it checks a ton of stuff, and is incredibly dangerous vs any team without a normal resist to the point where it just forces sack after sack, not to mention having EQ coverage can really help break past those normal resists. I suggest A rank for it. The other two pokes i'm gonna plug for are regirock and solrock. B- i think is fine for regirock, it's a normal resist with some actual offense to it (something steelix and registeel are severely lacking in). It's main issue is the water weakness and vulnerability to status giving it a hard time setting up a sweep with the curse set, so the choice band set should probably be its main set to allow it to really punish opponents for spamming banded normal / flying attacks. Solrock's main advantage is the ground immunity, it grants it an immunity to eq which is nice but the huge thing is it is immune to spikes. This really offsets its lack of bulk compared to some of the other normal resists, and allows it to stick around for quite a while. It's surprisingly good at spreading toxic, and the choice band set is a pretty good wall breaker. Its main issue is probably the dark weakness which gives it a bit of a houndoom problem. It does have the ability to KO houndoom though which helps, unlike lunatone. I think B would be a good rank for it.
     
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  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    [​IMG]A -> A-
    [​IMG]B+ -> A-
    [​IMG]B+ -> A
    [​IMG]C+ -> B- I actually am more fund of the subpuncher set tbh, especially if you run a bit of speed you can even outspeed stuff like defense Vaporeon if you need it to.
    [​IMG]C+ -> B
    Implementing these for now, and I'd like to see more discussion of the following mons:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Added Sableye and Gorebyss to C. Sableye's an effective spinblocker if you desperatey need a really good one, with a psychic-type immunity unlike misdreavus and dark-type neutrality. Gorebyss gets Rain Dance+Baton Pass, has perfect coverage with STAB+Psychic other than vs slowbro, can pass substitutes, and agilipass is not completely out of the question either. I've used it on a couple of teams, and whilst its frailty on the special end is bothersome, it's still an okay pick.
     
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  9. DG9

    DG9 Member

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    Well I'm not the best teambuilder, I'm going to build around some of the mons you want talked about. I can comment on some of them right now though.

    Chansey I can see go both ways as far as A+ and S are concerned. Great special wall, status absorber, and toxic spreaders, but does let some threats in the metagame get free turns. Dont use it too much so no further comments.

    Alakazam should go up to A+ imo. Bulkier teams struggle against Alakazam, even with Chansey. Offensive teams can auto lose to Alakazam if they lack a Houndoom/faster Pokemon. Even Houndooms however struggle against HP Water sets.

    I think Venusaur should move up to A-. Really good pivot in this meta, for offensive and defensive teams. Offers a good rain check, and can spread leech seeds and sleep. It does let what in my opinion is the best Pokemon in this game get free turns, but all it needs is team support. Venusaur is very consistent at its job, except for sleep misses lol. Very good mon that deserves A-.

    Going to be short on this one, but Dodrio fits B rank very well, and deserves to stay where it is. Good wallbreaker with good speed. 'Nuff said.
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    No team should auto-lose to anything really common. It is tricky to prepare for though. Chansey really does handle it fine, but it can be somewhat weaker after handling it if if the zam player plays well.

    It does barely aything better than Tauros, and Swellow steals some of its niche too, being faster but less powerful. As it is though, neither can really break bulkier Rock/Steel-types, so I see it as Swellow generally being the better of the two and that I feel Dodrio should definitely move down.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    [​IMG] - S or A+? Can someone please discuss this? I feel like it's so effective as a special wall and provides so much utility it deserves to be S.
    [​IMG] - down to A maybe? It really isn't /that/ good but it spikes up versus a few things, is an okay dnite check, and spike+spin together's neat, but I really think it's only worth mid A now.
    [​IMG]- A+ or A?
    [​IMG] - A+ or A? I think it's really hard to check.
    [​IMG] - Keep A- or move down?
    [​IMG]- moving to mid A. It's pretty versatile, and the pure force of stats does a lot for it.
    [​IMG] - I'll move this to B+. The cursers is a cool wincon vs stall and it's a great check to DDNite, but CBNite wins 1v1 if quagsire switches into HP Flying. It's an ok pivot but it really wants roar :(
    [​IMG] - dropping it to mid B.
    [​IMG] - should this go down to mid B?
    [​IMG] - should this go down to B-? Spinning isn't very useful when it has such bad synergy with spikes (stacking waters..) but it's a bitch to rain. It's a mediocre SDer due to its low stats.
    [​IMG] - mid B or stay as is? It's a great dnite answer at least, it just doesn't do much beyond that. It's a nice ursaring check if using it on stall, and a more offensive one with HP Electric is nice. Also, roar is always nice in this tier.
    [​IMG] - moving to mid C as it faces a lot of competition for a team spot, and isn't outstanding.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]- Thoughts?
    [​IMG] - I think to mid B for now, having tested it a bit and I can say the really fast subseeder is cool. How do I use an SDer though??
    [​IMG] - think this could go to B-. It doesn't fit all that much and its typing is a double edged sword, but electric immunity is the main super cool thing.
    [​IMG][​IMG] - we need to use these more!
    [​IMG][​IMG] - removing from rankings
    [​IMG] - moving to C+ since whilst it's kinda cool its stats are a bit low and it needs a lot of support against houndoom, but it's a more offensive spinblocker, and an ursa counter of sorts.
     
  12. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    I'm fairly ambivalent on most of this but I'll comment on the stuff I have an opinion on.
    Chansey can definitely qualify for S. It stops nearly all special attackers in the tier in their tracks, the status makes it somewhat difficult to switch in to for a number of physical attackers, and unlike blissey in 1u there are very few lures for it, and it is much more difficult to wear down due to the lack of sand stream. It's really tough to build a specially offensive team that doesn't get trashed by it, and it is effective in a variety of matchups. Wish and Heal Bell are also great support moves in this tier. The only thing holding it back is its lack of offense, but I feel like it's pretty easy to cover the majority of the things that set up on it.
    Agreeing with this, I find it just has difficulty actually setting up. There are very few things in the tier that give it a free layer of spikes, also houndoom mind games can be annoying.
    I think this thing is A+ for sure. CM passing makes it very difficult to counter in the traditional sense, and it is capable of sweeping as well (it's really not much worse than zam at sweeping except it can bp out its boosts if it gets stopped). My favorite set is the offensive one with psychic, cm, hp water, baton pass.
    I've seen this thing put in work, druidcruel actually has a number of set up opportunities in this tier. I think B is fine for it.

    I think exeggutor is really good. Sunny beam is pretty threatening and it has explosion as well as sleep powder to make a number of its counters think twice. Definitely a prediction reliant pokemon but it's quite effective if used to its best abilities. I'd put this in A- tbh.

    I think lunatone is pretty garbage. Gets outclassed by espeon as a cm passer and it really isn't a great dnite answer considering how vulnerable it is to houndoom (you don't want your answer to the best poke in the tier to be easily trapped by the second best poke in the tier). The only thing it has going for it is hypnosis. I'd put it in C, maybe C+.
    I think this thing belongs in C, and low C at that. It can be effective against teams that don't have houndoom, but it's pretty much useless if your opponent does have houndoom.
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I don't think Egg's that good - since it's so vulnerable to Houndoom, you're very limited when building with it. I'll move it up to B+ since you spoke so positively of it but I've barely seen it in action.

    I'll move luna down to C

    I guess missy can go to C.
     
  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    [​IMG] going to move this to A+
    [​IMG] - going to move this to mid B
    [​IMG] - going to move this to mid B
     
  15. DG9

    DG9 Member

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    [​IMG] --> B+

    Venusaur is a very good mon in this tier, idk why it's ranked so low. One of the best if not the best sleep spreaders, access to recovery, leech spreader, decent bulk, a nice rain check, etc. When you put Venusaur on your team, it is usually to cover a hole, but the thing is, when you add Venu you get a ton of roles into one mon.

    Now Venu isnt perfect obviously, it is weak to the vast amount of fire types in the tier, and that is a flaw it has. They do however have to fear sleep, minus Houndoom. And it is without a doubt top 3 rain checks on teams, and one of the easiest to fit on any team. Now it is the best B ranked mon in my opinion, and won't be the worst B+ ranked mon either.

    To sum it up, it deserves to raise due to good type, decent recovery, sleeping ability, and its splashability.
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I mean it is one of the more reliable anti-rain mons due to bulk/recovery but it doesn't really answer too much beyond that? Like it's kinda small what beyond that it actually does. I've got a team with a curse variant I want ot test though [curse/sludge/eq/giga drain] and it's toxic immune, so I guess it can be annoying to balance/stall teams with toxic immunity+sleep+leech available to it.

    I mean all the mons that have sleep tend to bring in hound [venu, jynx, jumpluff, exeggutor] with breloom being about the only thing that doesn't. And a lot of mons do similar stuff defensively to it so it's hard to say it's splashable. That's my case for it being in B.
     
  17. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Just out of curiosity what's the reason for the rank discrepancy between steelix and registeel? seems to me like the main niche steelix has is roar, and i feel like regi's curse and much better spdef should put it at least even with lix unless there's something im missing.
     
  18. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    yeah that really is the difference
    Back in december I said that.

    So where should lix/regi go?
    Pro's of Regi: better special bulk, making it a rain check and better curser. Better zam check due to that special bulk, arguable in terms of espeon checking - no phazing but no water weakness
    Pro's of Lix: Roar, significantly higher defense
     
  19. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Alright in that case I think they should be in the same rank tbh with registeel possibly being a little better. It's just safer and curse combined with that insane bulk makes it significantly more dangerous. The only reason i ever use steelix is if i get to the normal resist spot and realize i don't have a phazer. So yeah I nominate dropping steelix to b+
     
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  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Moved Steelix from A- to B+.
     
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