ADV 2U-L Viability Rankings

[Disaster Area]

Welcome to the ADV 2U Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed alphabetically to avoid overcomplication and since these rankings are still somewhat new.

Tierlist

S Rank

These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfil a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

- Analysis

- Analysis

- Analysis

A Rank

These Pokemon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

A+

- Analysis

A

- Analysis

- Analysis

- Analysis

- Analysis

A-

- Analysis
- Analysis

B Rank

These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokemon, reducing their usefulness.

B+

B

B-

-------------------- Everything above this line is 2U -------------------- Everything below this line is 3U --------------------

C Rank

These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokemon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

C+

C

Unranked:

 

[DG9]

Machamp --> B: This thing is so underrated imo. The set I innovated can literally take out 9/10 stall teams that the meta has to offer. Even if you don't want to use the set, CB does a number to stall as well as other playstyles. It has decent enough bulk to take on offense and get at least a kill a game. It has good coverage for the meta and should definitely move up.

Scizor --> C: Scizor is trash in this meta. The only real thing it has going for it is its typing. Its coverage consists of Steel Wing, Silver Wind, Hidden Power, and I guess Quick Attack. Very easy to counter. The SD set is laughable because of Scizor's terrible speed, and if you run Agility you get walled cause your coverage is ass. The CB set is ok, but it doesn't hit very hard at all, and again you get walled by a lot of things depending on your coverage. You just don't have enough of a movepool to beat the meta. The BP set is mediocre because of mons like Ninjask that can do it so much better. The worst part for Scizor though, is that it is forced to run HP Rock because of the plethora of fire types in the meta, meaning you get walled by any and every steel type. This poor bug will have to wait another gen to shine...

Gorebyss: The problem I have with this is, are we ranking the other rain mons (Ludicolo, Kingdra, Omastar) on their rain sweeping abilities or are we ranking them because they have some other set I don't know about? I understand Omastar has Spikes and I think it is correctly ranked, but if the others are ranked because of rain, Gorebyss should be up there too. I mean they all run basically the same coverage in Rain, Water, Ice, HP Grass/Electric. Omastar has better stats than Gorebyss other than Spdef, but has 4x weakness to grass as well has 2x to fighting and ground. And if it is because of rain, Gorebyss should at least be the same rank as Kingdra, having better stats all around. If they do have some other sets they use, then I can understand this, but if not, that is punishment to the poor mermaid dolphin thing.

That is about it for now, I will probably make a team or two today. And one more thing to add, did we come across some magnificent discovery in Dragonite? I haven't even seen the thing tested and it is S rank

 

[Disaster Area]

Machamp --> B: This thing is so underrated imo. The set I innovated can literally take out 9/10 stall teams that the meta has to offer. Even if you don't want to use the set, CB does a number to stall as well as other playstyles. It has decent enough bulk to take on offense and get at least a kill a game. It has good coverage for the meta and should definitely move up.

Scizor --> C: Scizor is trash in this meta. The only real thing it has going for it is its typing. Its coverage consists of Steel Wing, Silver Wind, Hidden Power, and I guess Quick Attack. Very easy to counter. The SD set is laughable because of Scizor's terrible speed, and if you run Agility you get walled cause your coverage is ass. The CB set is ok, but it doesn't hit very hard at all, and again you get walled by a lot of things depending on your coverage. You just don't have enough of a movepool to beat the meta. The BP set is mediocre because of mons like Ninjask that can do it so much better. The worst part for Scizor though, is that it is forced to run HP Rock because of the plethora of fire types in the meta, meaning you get walled by any and every steel type. This poor bug will have to wait another gen to shine...

Gorebyss: The problem I have with this is, are we ranking the other rain mons (Ludicolo, Kingdra, Omastar) on their rain sweeping abilities or are we ranking them because they have some other set I don't know about? I understand Omastar has Spikes and I think it is correctly ranked, but if the others are ranked because of rain, Gorebyss should be up there too. I mean they all run basically the same coverage in Rain, Water, Ice, HP Grass/Electric. Omastar has better stats than Gorebyss other than Spdef, but has 4x weakness to grass as well has 2x to fighting and ground. And if it is because of rain, Gorebyss should at least be the same rank as Kingdra, having better stats all around. If they do have some other sets they use, then I can understand this, but if not, that is punishment to the poor mermaid dolphin thing.

That is about it for now, I will probably make a team or two today. And one more thing to add, did we come across some magnificent discovery in Dragonite? I haven't even seen the thing tested and it is S rank

I'm not reaaaaally sure what Machamp does that Hariyama doesn't do just as well though. And any stall team should prep for every major threat anyways.

I've used scizor a bit and can actually say positive things about it. It's the best offensive normal-resist. Steel Wing + Hidden Power Ground lets you hit everything other than Moltres/Charizard/Ludicolo neutrally, and with enough speed investment you can outspeed most Pokémon likely on stall teams, without having to run Jolly. The set I run is Steel Wing/Morning Sun/HP Ground/Swords Dance, which lets it consistently check Normal-types throughout the match (allowing it to somewhat negate the loss of having lower bulk than other Steel- and Rock-types available), as well as threaten stall teams (who rarely run anything much faster than uninvested base 80 or so in Venusaur). Base 130 Atk is nothing to scoff at either.

Omastar and Ludicolo both have more than one set - Spikes-focussed Omastar, and Toxic/Leech Ludicolo (great Rain check), whilst Kingdra's neutrality to Electric/Grass makes it slightly more favourable than Gorebyss. Maybe Gorebyss should be moved up a bit, but Kingdra being so high certifies how immensely powerful Rain is.

Dragonite's been discussed a lot in the Skype chat in particular as a potent threat - the main reason it sees little use in 1U is that Salamence exists (basically Dnite but mostly better). Whilst Dnite has poor typing, it has immense stats and a more than workable movepool. DD (Full Physical and Mixed), CB (often with Sleep Talk), Mixed SubPunch, and maybe stuff such as Heal Bell, ChestoRest, RestTalk, Lum Berry, Toxic, etc. are all viable considerations. Depending on the set it can get around its checks and counters, or at least wear them down. For example, Cloyster hates taking an invested Thunderbolt or Thunder, almost all of its answers are Spikes-weak, and its main weakness (Ice) isn't that difficult to switch into. Long story short, great stats + good movepool + slightly exploitable but not poor per say typing, it seems to be a top choice at the moment.

 

[DG9]

Can't remember how to quote lol. But Machamp has better stats than Hariyama all around besides HP. That is good or bad depending on your views. They both can run each others sets, besides Hariyama's Knock Off set. That can make Hariyama a great utility for breaking stall, but after knocking off leftovers, since you most likely won't be running a CB set, you are going to have trouble breaking through the rest of the team. Machamp has 5 more speed than Hariyama, so if you want to run speed to outrun stall mons you can put less evs into speed and more into other important stats. They are both very similar and can both run through stall teams with CB/Rest BU HP Ghost Fighting Move. They should at least be the same rank as they don't really outclass one another.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

The difference between hariyama and machamp has been discussed a fair amount in the ADV OU viability rankings on smogon, and the overall consensus is that hariyama is better. Hariyama if ev'd correctly has more overall bulk than machamp by quite a bit, it also has a more diverse movepool making it more difficult to switch in to before it has been scouted. It has slightly less speed and attack but those are really the only advantages machamp has. Hariyama also has another ability it can make use of. Overall hariyama is just more versatile than machamp, capable of running cb and bulk up sets like machamp does with few drawbacks, while also being capable running disruptive defensive sets. It is arguable however that the disruptive defensive sets that differentiate hariyama in ou aren't as effective in this tier.

On the subject of the viability rankings I feel like a lot of the things in B rank in particular could be dominating threats in the meta but haven't had enough testing yet. I'm looking at things like tauros, slowbro, and possibly solrock and registeel. It's too early to really tell of course, but those are things I expect might be moved up in the future.

 

[Plancklength]

A lot of B seems odd to me too.
I feel like Solrock is being overrated just because you used it on that one team, and I would like Weezing to be higher than it, as I feel it is generally better as a physical wall. So either Solrock to C, Weezing to A, or both.
Also I want Lunatone to be C or unranked, since it lacks physical bulk so it can't do Solrock's walling-type stuff and it isn't really the best CM'er we have. Also it has Slowking's issue that what might be a good typing for a physical wall is just bad for a special wall.
Also add Vileplume to C, it's both a cleric and sort of a rain check.
Also Banette is trash imo and doesn't even deserve C, since it has negligible bulk and speed.
And what does Gardevoir do that isn't a worse version of something else? I know it has a great movepool, but it can't actually serve as a wall and offensive gard=worse zam. Imo it deserves C, unless there's something I'm missing. I'm not sure Trace Garevoir counts as a rain check either.
Also I don't want to see Slaking higher than C. It's just so exploitable and anything with protect takes advantage of it.
Also Quagsire is not Swampert, and water absorb does not mean it checks rain. It should be B at most.
And I'm iffy on Omastar and Gorebyss' relative placement. They don't seem 2 subranks apart, imo. So either put Gorebyss in at least B, or drop Omastar to at least B. Preferrably the former since omastar is arguably the second best spiker in the tier.
Also if some of our scarier bp recipients are in C (Cradily, Marowak, Medicham), I don't think espeon deserves A just because of espyjump. Please put it in B, along with ninjask.
And add Octillery to C. It's like Cradily in that it can't be phazed and has an arguably better typing and can go mixed, and has a not totally awful speed stat, so it's a pretty good bp recipient.
Also you are vastly underrating Altaria. It's arguably one of our best clerics because it can just come in, heal bell, rest and switch out with full health, and is immune to spikes. It is not just "worse Dragonite," even if it is from an offensive point of view. Altaria to B.
And imo eggy deserves A for potential sun sweeper sets in addition to being a cool bulk mon and rain check.
And Lapras deserves B imo. It has really nice bulk, and it has all sorts of utility, including heal bell and perish song.
Also I don't personally feel Cloy deserves S, but I don't entirely object to its placement there.
Oh and add Delcatty to C, it has a niche on full bp for being the only non-smeargle cleric that has baton pass (I would be nomming it for D, but we don't have a D).
And if we're going to rank crap like Slaking, I would like to see Clamperl in C rank because that thing will be a scary baton pass recipient if if can just get speed and a but more special attack, since it has the highest unboosted special attack stat in ADV courtesy of DeepSeaTooth (modest Clamperl has 542 special attack, modest Soul Dew Latios has 525).

EDIT: after some discussion, I guess Solrock can stay B. I still want Weezing in A tho, and Lunatone is still literally trash.
EDIT2: Also Linoone for C? Belly Drum+Espeed is p cool, and Espeed+Sball+Hp Fight/Ground hits basically everything for at least neutral.

 

[Lilyhollow]

I wouldn't differentiate Zam and Espeon's rankings yet but atm I'm higher on Espeon. It doesn't have to run EspyJump (which is a specific concept: specially defensive espeon with substitute/baton pass), baton pass is just an amazing general tool. You can go offensive Psychic/HP/CM/Baton Pass and just maul stuff, but unlike Alakazam you have a nice out if like Chansey shows up or whatever.

I wonder why Houndoom is ranked so high? It does handle Dusclops which is good, but Zam/Espeon can (and in zam's case i think should) just run HP Water. I don't see any particularly good reason for Zam to run a punch. I think the big reasons to run fire punch in OU were Gross/Skarm/Forretress, right? Now it's just like... Registeel and Eggy, I guess?

Agreeing with planck that I'm not seeing the lunatone/solrock hype. Maybe I need to play against them more.

I feel like you're overlooking Donphan, it feels like a real thing to me. There's some other stuff in C that I see nice potential in like Medicham and Lapras but Donphan sticks out in particular.

It's going to take a long time to have a good idea of what's going on in this format, should be fun. Best way to get there is to run tournaments I guess.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

When zam runs coverage i see hp water being the best thing, but zam has so many disruptive moves that it can use as well, taunt + recover allows it to set up on chansey for example, and houndoom doesn't really care about most of those other than trick i guess, meaning it completely hard walls these variants of zam. Getting rid of clops might also be important for stall teams to help in stall on stall matchups considering how most of the spinners really can't do much to clops. On that note though i do agree that donphan seems pretty underrated, seeing as it can actually do a decent job of wearing down dusclops with STAB EQ.

Solrock may not be as good as I think it is, but I see normal/flying resists being a lot more important in this tier than they are in ou, seeing as stuff like tauros tears through a number of mons once the normal resist is gone. Having a normal resist and a ground immunity seems like it might allow solrock to be a cool pivot. It also has a number of nice move options. Its stats aren't great, but with the right investment coupled with its good typing, I feel it could fulfill a number of roles on a team.

 

[Disaster Area]

Also Banette is trash imo and doesn't even deserve C, since it has negligible bulk and speed.

Misdreavus is frail too but ranked, and whilst banette is slower, lacking a ground immunity, but does have 115 Atk, Ghost STAB+HP Fighting+a mix of other tools. For now I think it's good enough to be in C.

And what does Gardevoir do that isn't a worse version of something else? I know it has a great movepool, but it can't actually serve as a wall and offensive gard=worse zam.Imo it deserves C, unless there's something I'm missing. I'm not sure Trace Garevoir counts as a rain check either.

Trace garde checks rain and sun, it has CM, good coverage options, wish, wisp, great special bulk (like the sort you see on espyjump), etc. there's a lot of merit to it. Not personally tested it yet but on paper I like it.

Also I don't want to see Slaking higher than C. It's just so exploitable and anything with protect takes advantage of it.

Basically its main issue from OU - getting worn down too quickly - is much less worse now that there's no Sand. It is really fast and really powerful and has wide coverage. Not that much is likely to carry protect either - for example only quagsire from A rank is likely to carry it.

Also Quagsire is not Swampert, and water absorb does not mean it checks rain. It should be B at most.

It's probably the best dnite check in the game, requiring one super-specific move for Dnite to ever hope to break it on its own. It also checks Blaziken, has good Toxic targets (mainly Ludicolo), and in practice it does play a lot like swampert.

And I'm iffy on Omastar and Gorebyss' relative placement. They don't seem 2 subranks apart, imo. So either put Gorebyss in at least B, or drop Omastar to at least B. Preferrably the former since omastar is arguably the second best spiker in the tier.

Gorebyss to B on popular demand.

Also you are vastly underrating Altaria. It's arguably one of our best clerics because it can just come in, heal bell, rest and switch out with full health, and is immune to spikes. It is not just "worse Dragonite," even if it is from an offensive point of view. Altaria to B.

Clerics are the easiest supporters to find in this tier. Chansey, Umbreon, Vaporeon, and Articuno are all potentially good bellers, there's literally tons of mons with Wish, and Altaria doesn't really check thaaaaat much - just grasses, sleep, some fighters [not yama/champ], and Steelix - I'm not sure it's B worthy yet.

And imo eggy deserves A for potential sun sweeper sets in addition to being a cool bulk mon and rain check.

I can see this, although Houndoom is ridiculously good against it.. though Boom Egg+Alakazam sounds monstrous. I think I'll move it to A for now.

And Lapras deserves B imo. It has really nice bulk, and it has all sorts of utility, including heal bell and perish song.

At the same time I really feel like it's competing a ton with so many other Pokémon it's really difficult to justify, over for example Cloyster or Vaporeon, I know it has the sheer weight of stats but so does a lot of its competition. I'm just not sold that it's worth running often yet.

I wonder why Houndoom is ranked so high? It does handle Dusclops which is good, but Zam/Espeon can (and in zam's case i think should) just run HP Water. I don't see any particularly good reason for Zam to run a punch. I think the big reasons to run fire punch in OU were Gross/Skarm/Forretress, right? Now it's just like... Registeel and Eggy, I guess?

Houndoom is like the best/only worthwhile offensive dark type, (maybe absol?), it's a great sleep absorbing sun check that beats Jynx too. It just has a really good typing for the meta rn, and early bird is a cool ability.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

After a couple battles with EMdany, I'm thinking vaporeon and ursaring could afford to move up. Vaporeon is a great pivot for offensive and defensive teams alike and is able to counter a number of top threats in this meta depending on its moveset. It's one of the few answers to houndoom and blaziken, Ice beam variants can take on dragonite, and toxic variants can take on rain mons like kingdra. It also passes wish which can come in handy on a number of teams. I see it being able to find its way into a number of archetypes as a pivot/support mon that doesn't drain your team's tempo as badly as some other support pokes do, thanks to wish easing switches. Ursaring also seems really dangerous, it's very bulky, hits extremely hard, and is one of the few offensive normal types that doesn't rely on choice band to be extremely dangerous. Steelix can't afford to switch in on swords dances repeatedly since +2 eq 2hkos. It also has guts so you can't just toxic/burn it and wait for it to die because it will wreak even more havoc on its way down.

 

[Disaster Area]

I'll put ursa to B and vap to A, it seems pretty accurate right now. Think I might also move Jynx down to B, thinking about how good some of the other psychics are, I don't think it can really match as well. It's kinda one-dimensional compared to a lot it's competing with.

 

[Disaster Area]

Proposing lots of changes!

A -> B. Personally I think it's just too frail, it doesn't really do enough, and of course whilst Spikes are cool, i can't help but feel it's mediocre, just due to really low stats and it's definitely the poorest of the 3 main spikers.

A -> B close one and I think when we introduce subranks it'll straddle A-/B+. I kinda feel like Roar and slightly better physical prowess are its only real draws over registeel, but the Ground typing does it no favours, as well as much lower special bulk than Registeel. It's a better Espyjump answer than Regi, and can abuse Spikes with Roar, and I mean phazing IS really cool, but I feel like in this tier, that's about it that it has over registeel.

A -> B again a close one. I think that its moveslots are far too limited though, and whilst it has good stats they could definitely be distributed much better, and it has a bit of 4MSS. Wish/Protect are almost mandatory, admittedly making it a great team supporter but it's heavily restrictive. Surf is really wanted to stop random stuff coming in, Ice Beam you want for dragonite, Roar is an amazing move, Toxic is something it wants to run on a lot of teams, and it has barely a hope in hell outspeeding and hurting Cloyster, which mandates Spin support, usually meaning another Water, I guess. I just feel like it's hard to get all you want out of it, water's not an ideal type to stack although it's one of the better rain answers, and idk I'm just not digging it right now. Maybe we'll see changes but I need to see more teams use it really.

B -> C It's bland. All the other swift swimmers are multipurpose, Omastar is similarly powerful, it doesn't really do much that other Pokémon can't. Not bad per-say, just not especially worthwhile to run in a tier so saturated with similar Pokémon.

B -> C somehow this tier is full to the brim with clerics, miltank's not a particularly special one I feel. I mean sure it's probably okay in practice, but again it's bland and does very little which is specific in terms of answering the opponent's team. Someone feel free to show me this is good, but for now I can't imagine using it.

B -> C Frail, but ok-ish typing, and speed-passing is really good in this tier.. '[07:07:43] Lord Clefable: our tier has like 10 things under the category of oh dear god if it gets baton passed speed everything is fucked' (PlanckLength discussing Ursaring, but relevant here). Some phazers though it really can't get past without support, like Steelix, and it's really frail as I said, so it's pretty limited in what it can really achieve. I'd like to see it work though, I think it could, but I also kinda feel Scizor's just better.

B -> C not seen it yet but I think it's only that nuts physical bulk combined with good power, and okay speed, that kinda gives it any reason to use. I think Steelix is kinda plain better though, I feel it's really niche, poor thing.

B -> A insane mixed bulk, really good typing, wide movepool, fairly customisable. It doesn't have roar but outside of that it's kind of the perfect steel type pivot thingy. I really like it but maybe I'm overrating it a bit.

B -> C It's really slow, it's not immediately threatening when passed speed, Dark/Electric/Grass/Bug/Ghost weaknesses are all annoyances for various reasons. Wanna see someone show me how it can be used well in battle in this meta, i just feel it's a mediocre fit.

B -> C could annoy certain defensive teams, but it's kinda mediocre.

B-> C I think Lunatone's just better, Ice Beam is plain huge, and a really big part of running either is their ability to check Dragonite.

C -> B really powerful, even if it faces competition it's still a cool choice. Early Bird is always nice.

B -> C It's really ridiculously powerful but it provides no synergy and ursaring does most of what it does better, or tauros, or dodrio, or swellow... yeah it's just not a great pick.

C -> Unranked:

 

[Plancklength]

Would like to note: things I thought of that are probably more threatening to baton pass speed to than ursa: medicham, marowak, blaziken, rhydon.

First 2 are bc hit like trucks without having to SD, blaziken is because mixed things are scary and rhydon is due to actually useful stabs for coverage.

Also I agree with basically all the nominations atm, with the only ones I am uncertain on being blastoise (foresight + rapid spin versus tenta's actually beating the ghosts eventually since immune to toxic), cradily, imo it needs tested, since it overall has some interesting traits, and maybe the trio of smeargle, ninjask, and mr mime which all kind of depend on how good baton pass is in general (and whether mr mime's unique niches are actually worth one of 3 slots for a bp'er).

Also while I am convinced qwilfish is good mon, it is probably the worst spiker in practice, and not the most impressive of the swift swimmers so I'm okay with it in B.

 

[Lilyhollow]

machamp probably deserves to be ranked. yes it's basically worse than hariyama at the stuff that you generally want to use them for, but the better offense is not nothing. At the very least I'm picking it if I'm BPing speed.

 

[Disaster Area]

machamp probably deserves to be ranked. yes it's basically worse than hariyama at the stuff that you generally want to use them for, but the better offense is not nothing. At the very least I'm picking it if I'm BPing speed.

I sorta feel like the sort of role Hariyama fills already is pretty niche, and its access to stuff like Knock Off is a bigger draw on it. Blaziken is superior to either as a speedpass recipient generally, though I can see Machamp being a valid choice for that sort of team. I feel machamp's probably viable, but I still think it's super niche. Lots of stuff I removed from the rankings I don't see as totally unviable (e.g. Mantine's a cool rain check if the rain's not using electric moves, nidoking is a fast mixed attacking ground-type, shiftry could function on some sort of sun team maybe, etc.) but they're so niche that, especially with our currently much more limited understanding of the game, are probably not worth mentioning.

 

[Disaster Area]

Moving

B -> C
It spins, and has that cool rock typing, and works in rain, but it faces a lot of competition in every niche - Armaldo's more unique typing, omastar's alternative choice as a rain abusing rock-type, god knows how many swords dancers... I feel like it's just tricky to fit as spiking is more important than spinning and lots of similar mons in the tier works against it.

 

[Disaster Area]

Moving

B -> C
good stats sure, but it's a pretty poor meta fit. Fighting type does little useful withouth another type alongside, it's slower than other fighting types, and it's a type that gets preyed on easily in this meta, with the large amount of psychic- and flying-type attacks going around, and the inability to really make use of enough of its tools at once (both guts and thick fat are cool, but I guess Ursaring outclasses it mainly for guts abuse, unless you go with Rest(+talk?); Knock Off and Whirlwind are awesome but hard to fit; fighting/ghost coverage is the minimum it really needs if it wants to pose any offensive threat, with rock alongside being ideal). Yet to see a successful team with it.

 

[Disaster Area]

Going to make further changes and add subranks. Please comment!

S Rank

These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfil a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

Houndoom to S. Pressures large amounts of the meta, good typing, great speed (outspeeds base 80s with modest), and is forcing a lot of adaption. Can be customised to beat nearly anything, other than Blaziken. Cloyster's moved down! Whilst it's the be-all and end-all of utility, it really doesn't check much and it's pressured heavily by Houndoom. DDNite, and offensive Normal-types is about the limit of its capabilities, though it can set up hazards versus bulky waters, it's not too difficult for an offensive team to not give it any room to set up hazards.

A Rank

These Pokemon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

A+

A

A-

Dusclops drops - its vulnerability to Pursuit, its low speed and limited recovery, and its general offesnive presence is pretty low. It's still a cool mon, and a good choice for stall - it's really the tier's best ghost by far - but it has issues with the restrictions on its moveslots, it's prediction-reliant and it gives the opponent the momentum if you're not careful. Also in my experience, a critical hit can and will ruin it. With Venusaur I feel as if it's only suited to balanced and stallish teams, doesn't even offer a ground resist, has limited moveslots, and whilst it does fill some valid niches, I feel it doesn't pose enough of a threat or answer stuff reliably enough to be in A. Kingda drops too - I simply feel it's less versatile and useful than Ludicolo, but I've maybe not been riding the rain hype train for some time.

Steelix and Moltres rise. Steelix's access to roar, and great physical bulk (letting it invest in special defense), as well as reasonably wide movepool, make it a good choice of Steel-type. Moltres we've get to see this high up, but really it's got great stats, good typing, and actually a surprisingly effective movepool. Whilst Fire Blast/Flamethrower and Hidden Power (and Steel Wing..) are pretty limited, access to Wisp, Roar, and Morning Sun gives it a good enough selection of tools to not be instantly predictable - I've seen everything from SubWisp to Choice Band (shouts Enigami) to SpDef (really good set actually) and it can generally pull any of those sets off effectively. Sheer force of stats goes a long way, as with Dragonite, as with Moltres.

Chansey's an obvious choice for A+ Rank - virtually countering Rain, non-Taunt Alakazam, Moltres, etc. all in one Pokémon, it provides great compression, AND has access to both Heal Bell and Wish. Its lack of offenses is its only real downside, but Seismic Toss does meaningful damage versus many opponents, and overall it's a very good pick. The offensive Psychics are both reasonably versatile, but often feel very limited, mainly by the presence of Houndoom though. They're good, and can be challenging to prepare for, but they certainly have their limitations. Blaziken is a great mixed offensive Pokémon - in particular, a good CMpass recipient - and has the option to run different sets to annoy common answers. Omastar is a fantastic Spiker, offering an usable typing, good offenses, and good bulk, as well as the ability to be a rain sweeper. Quagsire is fairly passive and predictable at times, and it's hazard-bait, but nevertheless it's a great answer to Blaziken, Dragonite, non-Grass move rain mons, and it can be an impressive Curser that can frustrate stall teams no end, especially with its good well-rounded bulk, and singular weakness.

B Rank

These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokemon, reducing their usefulness.

B+

B

B-

Jynx, Charizard, Rhydon, and Swellow drop. Jynx suffers badly from Early Bird Pursuit Houndoom to say the least. DrumZard is still challenging to set up, and has limited moveslots. Rhydon faces a lot of competition, though it's the most offensive Normal-resist in the tier. Its low speed, many weaknesses, and poor synergy with Agili-passers (and competition with Marowak in that regard) I feel make it a dubious choice. Although I remember from earlier tests SubSDSalac destroying teams, I'm still unsure if it's worthy of B rank. Swellow faces competition from Tauros and Dodrio - its higher speed and Guts give it a niche over its much higher-powered brethren, but I feel it's not B-rank worthy.

I don't really feel any of B+ require any explanation. Donphan's a good choice of spinner, although it's not a massively useful niche and its typing provides limited utility, it's still a valued member of the tier and I've gotten very good use out of it. Lunatone has a wide variety of tools, an unique typing and ability combination, and Ice Beam. Qwilfish, for all its flaws, is still pretty versatile, a good rain check, etc. being Cloyster bait lets it down, but it's still a good pick. Scizor's AgiliPass abilities in particular, and the ability to be an offensive Normal-resist that's not momentum sapping earn it a spot in B rank. Tentacruel is both an amazing spinner, and much more importantly, an unique and effective Swords Dancer. In spite of its low attack stat, it's surprisingly effective, if for no other reason than annoying Rain no end. The remainder of B rank finds itself in B-, due to either issues with Houndoom, limited movepool, lower speed, fierce competition for a teamslot, or having less important roles in the metagame.

C Rank

These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokemon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

C+

C

off for now.

Don't feel like these are currently that worthwile (although I have ran Armaldo to good effect). I feel C+ are more standout.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Definitely agree with a lot of these changes, particularly the ones in the upper ranks. Houndoom I think is definitely deserving of S, and I've been waiting to see cloyster drop for a while for the reasons you mentioned. My main issues currently are with tauros and solrock. From what i've seen of tauros, it's one of the more dangerous normal types in the tier. The main assets it brings are speed, power, intimidate, and most importantly in comparison to some of the other fast physical attackers in the tier is its access to earthquake which makes it much better at wearing down steel/rock types when compared to dodrio for example. Most of the games i've played against it have forced me to fodder a number of pokemon to it. I think it should be at least b+. Concerning solrock, I know I seem to rate it higher than a number of people, but its unique typing makes it one of the better physical dragonite answers, as well as a good pivot against a number of banded mons. It can also check alakazam in a pinch, and its access to baton pass is an asset for defensive teams to abuse spikes and gain tempo. In comparison to lunatone I think there were a number of things that were overlooked, there's the obvious that it has a better defense stat, but the main thing is its higher attack allowing it to make use of stab rockslide. Sure lunatone can use ice beam to counter dnite, but stab rockslide is a far more spammable attack, especially when paired with toxic and some spikes. Most notably it prevents houndoom from being able to switch in on it. I've mostly been using a defensive set for it and it has been quite consistent, however I think a choice band set could also be viable. Im not saying it has to be high, but I think it deserves to be ranked.

 

[Disaster Area]

Solrock back to C for now then, and I'll put Tauros to B+. Maybe Dodrio should go down to B, but I think Early Bird is such an awesome trait, though when being paired with Houndoom, I feel Tauros pretty much outclasses. I'll make some changes.