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ADV OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by hclat, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. Ibidem

    Ibidem Member

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    [​IMG] S -> A+
    Comparing Skarmory to Tyranitar/Gengar/Suicune or Celebi seem not right to me. Both Tyranitar and Suicune have realistic chance of sweeping whole team. Celebi is best answer to any last poke there is, can sweep on it’s own or pass boosts. Gengar cleans weakened teams and can explo on special walls to unleash calm mind spam or just eliminate important obstacle. Skarmory can’t sweep so in result of that it can’t win game on it’s own. Skarmory is "just" great support. Notably Tyranitar and Celebi have very realistic way of surviving Dutrio attack and 1KO it back. Gengar wins matchup unless is flinched and Suicune just laughs at it. Skarmory on the other hand can’t do anything back to Magneton outside of garbage hp ground set that is useless vs teams without Magneton. Skarmory is also pretty mediocre vs mixed attackers as it has difficulties setting up on them without taking huge damage in process.

    [​IMG] A -> A+
    Zapdos has fantastic typing and is only viable spikes immune phazer in the tier. With sand, 2 layers of spikes down and spec attack investement (and right hidden power) can heavily damage common switchins such as Celebi or even Snorlax. Zapdos is one the best leads and can be really gimmicky if needs be. While I personally think CB set is garbage, setting up agility and passing it to some weird poke like Marowak can be devastating. Access to twave helps vs pokes like Jirachi – that Zapdos normally can’t win 1 on 1. Zapdos after Suicune is best pressure user in game, even after sleep talk changes rest is still valid option with for example status move over sleep talk. Zapdos also handles pretty well 1 on 1 vs Gengar – something than other flying types can’t say aside from Aerodactyl and maybe rare Articuno. Altough Zapdos is very bad vs ice beam Blissey as most likely won’t survive through rest cycles and can’t punish her in any meaningful way and is even worse vs Regice – best Zapdos counter both defensively and offensively. Probably my favourite poke to use through all gens. I know this isn’t exactly a valid argument, but he was my first level 100 poke ever - have to respect this guy!

    [​IMG] B+ -> A-
    Milotic is easily best answer to mixed attackers in ADV. With right amount of luck (no crit) it can even stall out last poke defensive Suicune as Milotic takes +6 surfs better than Blissey and recover has more pp. With great bulk it is also probably best hypnosis user in game. Milotic is also best refresh user as Claydol or Swampert have always dilemma whether to use refresh or rest or explosion (in Claydol case). Milotic with his instant recovery move just doesn’t give a fuck. A truly majestic creature although not amazing on offensive side.

    [​IMG] B -> A-
    Most underated poke in the gen. Regice is best bolt beam combo user in game. Offensive Starmie with great speed is obviously better at cleaning weakened teams but can’t easily switch in. Many teams without dedicated special wall have no resistances vs Registeel attacks and pokes like Tyranitar can take strong stab ice beams only limited amount of time. Registeel has pretty good defense stat that allow him to take strong physical hits if it needs be and retaliate accordingly. With explosion set Regice is also best Blissey lure in the game as Gengar often lures pursuit Tyranitar which wins this 1 on 1 most of the time. Main Regice problem is relying on rest as recovery move and poor defensive typing. Also Blissey works better as Suicune counter as Regice fails to threaten it after few calm minds and psych up isn’t really good vs roar variant. I guess you could go with bolt beam seismic toss but I think most people will agree that twave in most situations is just better choice on Regice.

    [​IMG] B+ -> B-
    In my opinion Raikou is single most overrated poke in the gen. It is easily countered by Snorlax/Blissey. Revenge killed by dugtrio or Aerodactyl. Has huge problems with Flygon/Swampert duo. Healthy Claydol/Tyranitar/Metagross can easily switch and threaten it with EQ. Even quite popular body slam Rachi with few attack evs breaks subs of Raikou and handles him pretty swiftly. Same goes with Venusaur sludge bomb and even defensive Celebi can just perish song him out. Omnipresent sand doesn’t help either. And if you really want to change weather and setup for last calm mind sub poke – Suicune with 101 subs is just better. Also as fast special sweeper I feel like Alakazam is more dangerous. He is faster, hits harder and has wider coverage, altought I’m not a fan of Alakazam either. It is good vs Gengar though as it takes little damage from any Gengar special attacks, Raikou is faster and can block explosion with substitute. I guess hypnosis is still a problem but that can be said about any switchins bar insomnia/vital spirit users.

    [​IMG]–B -> B
    Not much to say about Vaporeon. Just overall works well as a wish passer and has amazing ability. In my opinion Vaporeon is just straight up better poke than Ludicolo or Kingdra. Period.

    [​IMG] C+ -> B+
    Venusaur is very annoying poke to face. With toxic immnunity sometimes you just can’t force this fucker out. He works very well as alternative to defensive Celebi. Venusaur is also surprisingly good vs gimmicks such as Cacturne or sub baton pass Celebi. Fairly accurate sleep powder is another advantage over onion stall machine. His main problem is lack of reliable recovery as synthesis healing rate in sand and pp is just bad.

    [​IMG] C+ -> B
    Donphan is by far best counter to DD Tyranitar in ADV. With sand recovery, no 4x weakness to grass, better physical bulk than Swampert - Donphan can easily handle DD Tyranitar. With some spec def evs even rare ice beam from DD Tyranitar fails to 2 hit KO majestic elephant. Due to lack of steel resistance Donphan really appreciates pairing with either Suicune or Milotic to handle Metagross. Either of those two also helps vs mixed sweepers that Donphan with his low spec def cannot face effectively. Furthermore to use Donphan full potential pairing him with pursuit Tyranitar and Magneton to handle Gengar and Skarmory seems mandatory, as otherwise Donphan can’t damage them in any meaningful way. All of that makes Donphan pretty predictable for a good opponent than can easily suspect presence of his usual partners. Of note Donphan works surprisingly well with hp rock and high base attack stat as Gyarados counter – very dangerous poke that most teams have only one answer for.

    [​IMG]C- -> B-
    Most people say that there are only 3 special walls in ADV but I truly believe this guy is fourth one. Registeel great typing and sand recovery allow him to take special hits better than Snorlax and as good as Regice, although his defense stat is far superior. Registeel works similar to Blissey – his main way of dealing damage is seismic toss which makes him really solid vs both Suicune/Raikou respectively. With steel typing Dugtrio is obviously problematic but healthy Registeel can survive Dugtrio EQ and counter has obviously 100% chance to 1 hit KO it back, something that Blissey with ice beam often fails to do. Registeel is stupidly effective vs offensive pokes without recovery or setup moves such as offensive Zapdos, Mix Metagross, utility Snorlax, as they either can’t kill him through rest cycles (Zapdos, mix Metagross) or just risk being countered (Snorlax). Takes roughly 50%~ from Aerodactyl EQ which makes him still pretty healthy even if you miss predict. Of note Registeel/Milotic duo handle all mixed attackers in game. However Registeel is very predictable and if Tyranitar fails to kill Gengar you’ll run into huge problems. Registeel is also enormous taunt bait which is bad vs DD taunt Tyranitar if you decide to stay and spread status instead of switching instantly.

    [​IMG]C- -> C+
    Best knock off user in ADV, although some might argue over Haryiama. Realisticly however most things that Hariyama scares such as Lax or Bliss – Armaldo does same job with knock off. Sand recovery, normal resistance and ability to threaten Celebi are solid positives over Hariyama. With ability to break subs with rock blast Armaldo is good lead vs popular Jolteon/Zapdos/Ninjask leads. However rock weakness and pathetic speed makes Armaldo useful only on defensive teams that can cover his flaws.

    I would also add two pokes to rank C:

    [​IMG]Nothingness -> C
    On paper Exeggutor looks like poor choice compared to Ludicolo or Kingdra as a weather sweeper because of worse coverage but is actually pretty good on dedicated sunny day teams with ability to trade 1 for 1 with Blissey via explosion.

    [​IMG]Nothingness -> C
    Gligar ability to bs opponents with sand veil and access to swords dance allows him to sweep whole team with few lucky misses. However gimmick is not all that Gligar can do – with jolly nature (~270 speed) he is one of the best switchins to Heracross and can easily 1 hit KO him.

    I would also add three pokes to rank C-:

    [​IMG]Nothingness -> C-
    Cradily is one of the best partners for most retarted poke in game – Smeargle. Useful only as boosts receiver on baton pass teams, nonetheless effective in right circumstances.

    [​IMG] Nothingness -> C-
    With access to explosion Shiftry is basically inferior Exeggutor. Works fine on dedicated sunny day teams.

    [​IMG] Nothingness -> C-
    Very useful poke on full baton pass chains teams with ability to blank roar.

    I would also remove one poke completely:

    [​IMG] C- -> Nothingness
    Hitmontop is just terrible poke. Yes it can force out any kind of Tyranitar but that’s all it can do. Stricly UU.

    My rank (S to B-) would be:

    S: Tyranitar > Suicune > Gengar > Celebi
    A+: Swampert > Skarmory > Metagross > Salamence > Zapdos > Jirachi
    A: Aerodactyl > Snorlax > Blissey > Dugtrio > Starmie
    A-: Milotic > Flygon > Jolteon > Regice > Magneton > Heracross
    B+: Forretress > Gyarados > Porygon 2 > Venusaur
    B: Claydol > Vaporeon > Donphan > Cloyster
    B-: Registeel > Ludicolo > Raikou > Kingdra
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
    Dizno, prozac, Hydreigon6497 and 3 others like this.
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Full BP chains aren't usable because of the restriction to a maximum of 3 BP users per team... that being said, there are some edge cases that can get around that... which is why I'm going to make a thread revisiting how we handle Baton Pass later today. So leave this off of the rankings for now.
     
  3. Ibidem

    Ibidem Member

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    Sorry I'm used to ladder shenanigans so much that I forgot about it.
     
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  4. Deadboots

    Deadboots Resident Lethargarian Host Emeritus

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    Skarm doesn't need much support, but it does need to support things. When it's used on teams like cm offense, it is used as a means of manipulating switches to provide setup opportunities and/or punishing the opponent for not responding to layers of spikes (so that multiple-turn setup is unnecessary). This is a support role. Same deal on most physical offense teams. The argument against it being in the S tier is not that it's a generally ineffective Pokemon without the right support, it's that it simply doesn't possess the flexibility and offensive capability that the other S tier pokes do. Perhaps it was erroneous to state that it's a pokemon one builds around, because Spikes are indeed effective in tandem with a wide variety of strategies - but if you're not specifically building around leveraging Spikes, they're just another form of chip damage and switch manipulation. The right lure can be just as/more effective on PhysOff or CM spam; Spikes are slower, albeit often more reliable in the long run
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    triggered.jpg
     
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  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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  7. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Making some long overdue changes.

    Adding the following pokemon to the list in to C-
    [​IMG] Exeggutor: A solid sun abuser, doesn't exactly find itself on 'serious' teams but it can put in work.
    [​IMG] Gligar: A surprisingly dangerous mon. The combination of a solid typing, usable bulk, an obnoxious ability and access to swords dance give this mon the ability to set up and sweep with a little bit of luck. Anyone who has faced Bill Shatner can tell you it's not to be taken lightly.
    [​IMG] Poliwrath: Not sure how amazing this is so putting it at the bottom for now but hypnosis + belly drum is intriguing enough for me to take it seriously.
    [​IMG] Breloom: Kinda surprised I hadn't already added this to be honest, its bulk leaves a lot to be desired but a well played breloom can leave a serious dent in a team with the spore + focus punch combo. Bulky teams in particular really don't like seeing this guy.

    Also changed the rankings of a few mons
    [​IMG] Skarmory: Moved back down to the top of A+. I know some people disagree with this but it seems as if there's enough support to move it back down, and personally I agree. It's amazing at what it does, but it only does one thing. The other S ranks are capable of filling a variety of roles incredibly well, and as a result Skarmory just doesn't measure up.

    [​IMG] Registeel: Moved it to the top of C, this thing is a lot better than everything in C-. It's ridiculously hard to kill and has a lot of tricks up its sleeve. It also provides a coveted rock resistance.


    I'd like to hear some more opinions on some of the other points brought up recently such as by Ibidem because a lot of them I'm not entirely sure on.

    Furthermore one thing I've been using a lot lately and realized is underrated on this list is Cloyster. With all the Magneton running around currently, A spikes core of Cloyster+Pursuit Tar+Magneton is actually incredibly reliable. Now of course, moving it up involves moving it out of the 2U metagame, and its position was voted on originally by the council as a result of this. As a result, I don't want to do this without hearing what other people have to say. So what do people think of Cloyster? Should it be moved up, stay where it is or is it even too high in your eyes?
     
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I'm not sure on Cloyster, it's not a Pokemon I really use, but I can see it being a good meta pick.

    Maybe we could have a fresh vote in two week's time on what's in the ADV 1U tier...
     
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  9. Ibidem

    Ibidem Member

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    To update my last post without editing the original one:

    [​IMG] C-
    The more I used Armaldo I got worse and worse results with him. Biggest problem is that Metagross will switch into him endlessly. Knock off in general pays off only in longer games, making it almost useless vs offensive teams with Skarmory. For example very popular Kerts Jolteon team that Asta used vs Dekzeh in SPL doesn't really care about knocked item on Skarmory, because team ends games before turn 30. So I think it should stay where it is. Hariyama is atleast rock resist and counters all variants of Tyranitar, but honestly both have hard time vs offensive teams.

    [​IMG] C+
    Donphan is great on the right team, but it doesn't fit into many. So I admit that I overrated this mon in first place. While I agree that B rank might be too much it's definately better than bottom C+. I will talk about subjective order of C+ mons later.

    [​IMG]B- [​IMG] B+
    I keep my statement about rest of my previous most, especially in parts about Venusaur and Registeel. These two are far better than anything else in C+, C or C- ranks. Venusar honestly should be moved to OU. While Registeel & Milotic have a lot less exploitable weaknesses than Swampert & Blissey combo. Yes, it's true that most of the time you will pick body slam Jirachi with special defense investment over Registeel as special wall with rock resist, but that doesn't mean Registeel isn't good. Just don't use curse variant. It does nothing to Suicune or Swampert and both of them can just easy phaze it.

    Some new thoughts!

    [​IMG] C -> C+
    As stated before in Armaldo section - Hariyama is rock resist mon than can beat every variant of Tyranitar. Knock off + whirlwind combo work even better vs substitute leads than Armaldo with unreliable rock blast accuracy. I think it's inconsistent mon, almost useless vs calm mind offense but considering what is above him already, I think he deserves to be in C+.

    [​IMG] B
    I don't think it's very good. Cloyster has very low amount of setup opportunities during match and just dies to 2 Tyranitar crunches which is really pathetic. Because Swampert or other bulky waters are so popular it can setup on them, but most of the time it will just die after laying 1 or 2 spikes. It's still better than Glalie/Cacturne gimmicks so it's fine where it is now on bottom of B rank.

    [​IMG] C -> B-
    Weezing is really good and very easy to fit into the team. Let's say you are running non sand team without phazing move and you need answer to Heracross. Yes, you can go with Salamence but you risk being vulnerable to baton pass. It also counter curse Snorlax so you can skip Celebi, if you already have different Suicune answers. Leech seed isn't amazing without spikes, while will-o-wisp doesn't care. Yes, it's weak to pursuit users because of poor special defence, but you can pair it with Dugtrio and eliminate those threats. Add to those two Jirachi and you got amazing core. Both Weezing and Jirachi benefit a lot from Dugtrio and wish keeps Weezing healthy, because pain split isn't super reliable. No way Weezing is just C rank. In my opinion C+ atleast but I think it really deserves B-.

    [​IMG] B- -> C+
    Kingdra is very mediocre. There is really no point in using it over Ludicolo. Special attack difference is very small, just not worth it. Ludicolo with access to leech seed can be really annoying to Suicune or Blissey. Kingdra can't. Also Ludicolo is immune to leech seed which helps vs Celebi.

    [​IMG] C- -> Nothingness
    One game is not enough for me. I don't think this mon deserves to be here. I would rather use Arcanine with extreme speed than this, even though Arcanine is also pretty bad and I'm glad it's not ranked here. Clefable also has belly drum + reliable recovery. Does it mean it should be ranked as well? No. Remove it please.

    [​IMG] C- -> Nothingness
    To put this as short and honest as I can: complete nonviable garbage.

    [​IMG] C -> C+
    Meanlock Umbreon is dangerous enough to put it on C+. I find pursuit variants of Umbreon very matchup depended and not worth using. Yes it can work well will curse Snorlax as bulky pursuit user that doesn't weaken Snorlax with sand stream, but it also does nothing vs very common mons like Metagross. While meanlock variant can trap Metagross and baton pass to bulky water or atleast force it to boom. It's useless vs taunt Gengar though or other faster taunt users.

    [​IMG] C+ -> C-
    Jynx is super unreliable and has disgusting defensive stats and typing as well. Imagine Raikou that is three times worse and after that imagine it sweeps. That's how I feel about Jynx. Not worth using at all.

    [​IMG] C- -> C
    Lapras wide coverage, good bulk, water absorb and perish song can be very useful. Still ice typing hurts but I think it deserves C rank. Coffe made some very good use of this mon on non sand stall team, where Blissey wouldn't be able to beat sub Suicune. It's far from amazing but quite decent.

    [Gen 3] OU replay: Coffe vs. SOULWIND❄/..(/// - Pokémon Showdown

    [​IMG] C+ -> B-
    Moltres is super dangerous. It can decimate very common Skarmory/Magneton/Swampert teams. Tyranitar won't enjoy will-o-wisp or hp grass either. It's very good with help of Dugtrio or spikes + taunt Gengar to remove Blissey. Moltres can even switch into Metagross, usually once because at the second time when you already revealed him, you need to scout for rock slide threat.

    My rank (B- to C+) would be:

    B-

    [​IMG] Registeel
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Raikou
    [​IMG] Weezing
    [​IMG] Moltres

    C+

    [​IMG] Donphan
    [​IMG] Alakazam
    [​IMG] Camerupt
    [​IMG] Hariyama
    [​IMG] Medicham
    [​IMG] Umbreon
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Steelix
    [​IMG] Cacturne
    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG] Houndoom
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
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  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    hmm... maybe. I'm not much of a phan of it though; it fits on builds nicely on paper but in practice it just isn't that good of a Pokemon

    I'm really unsure about this. Registeel is not quite outclassed by Jirachi, but it doesn't really have much over it. It has a couple of cool traits but I wouldn't put it higher than C+. With Venusaur I oppose putting it higher than mid B honestly... it's a nice lead, and it has some cool defensive traits, but it does suck when it misses sleep powders and once sand and spikes are up it gets worn down really quickly, whereas if you ran celebi there you would have greater longevity due to not having to rely on leech seed and giga drain for recovery. I'm very fond of it but I think even in mid B it would be overrated.

    I haven't found it particularly effective when I used it. Needs plenty of support - if you don't run RestTalk then you need support from stuff like Wish and hazard clearing. I guess a set of cross chop / knock off / hp ghost / whirlwind could be okay, but I don't like relying on it at all as a phazer (not many BPers you can actually phaze out), and without hp ghost you do nothing to Gengar, and without Knock off it's too prediction reliant and stuff. On stall teams it feels underwhelming but I'm not sure how well it would work on balance either. I feel that, like Donphan, it's a mon with a much stronger niche on paper than in practice.

    To me the main downside of Weezing is why not just run Gengar. It's actually normal-immune unlike Gengar - so can't be worn down by repeated body slams, and it is immune to fighting rather than resistant, and 4x bug resistant rather than 2x, albeit frailer, and gengar is faster... the only upsides is that you're physically attacking and higher overall defensive stats, but arguably much worse typing. On the other hand it's not weak to pursuit, but it doesn't spinblock either, and it doesn't clean. It has a definite niche all things considered but it does require very specific building because its niche is so narrow. I think C+ is fair if you want to move it up.

    Nah fam it's decent. If this thing gets passed an agility and doesn't miss hypnosis, you probably just lost.

    Hell naw. C- is fair. The closest comparison is camerupt. It beats Gengar and Electrics just like rupt, but unlike rupt it 1v1s many water-types too. Also like rupt, it's duggy weak unfortunately. Rupt is walled by Mence and checked by bulky waters, this is walled by blissey and other special walls. Defensively it has something of a viable niche, with better defensive stats and more Pokemon beaten than camerupt, but offensively it can't achieve the same things.

    Hell naw. PursuitBreon is a beast. I have it on multiple teams and I've won tournament games as well as ladder games against great players with it. Wish passing is great, and it actually reliably handles a bunch of threats (e.g. Starmie, Zapdos, can help with stuff like Celebi and Cune) although it doesn't provide sand or cover opposing snorlax. It's not dugtrio weak though...

    I can't comment on trappassing sets, but I think trappassing and cursepassing sets are both legitimate to some extent. Also, we saw Coffe use a GSC-style umbreon effectively in a series in the invitational, maybe he can talk about the overall viability of it.

    Tagging prozac to make a defense of it. I think dice and reyscarface also used it to some success iirc?

    It has some super specific niches: water absorb is nice but the thing is, what does it do that blissey doesn't do besides umm perish song I guess, and having a Water STAB.

    Not sure on this. It's a threatening mon yes but it's hard to justify it defensively over Zapdos which is just plain better 95% of the time from a defensive perspective. To me, definitely viable but only a C rank mon.

    My rank (B- to C+) would be:

    Why are you suggesting moving this down 2 ranks ?_? And ludi a rank too.
     
  11. Ibidem

    Ibidem Member

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    Gengar doesn't counter curse Snorlax. Yes it learns haze, but shadow ball will 2KO even without boosts.

    Camerupt beats all Gengars. Gengar can hurt it only with explosion, which is just a trade. I don't count hp water gimmicks as a solution. Even hypnosis if you don't have Dugtrio follow up won't do that much, Camerupt can be EVed to survive multiple ice punches. Camerupt works on offensive teams, especially with mixed Snorlax that can't do much vs Gengar - fire blast is not enough. It blanks will-o-wisp and kills all grounded electrics with EQ. Only defensive zapdos can outstall it with toxic/rest, but Camerupt can boom on it.

    Lanturn doesn't have boom, is weak to common hp grass and isn't immune to will-o-wisp. There is no point in using thit mon. Do you want bolt/beam resistant mon? Use Magneton, which atleast can trap and eliminate steels. Lanturn has also very low offensive presence. Comparing Lanturn to Camerupt is wrong. Those are completely different mons.

    Lapras does nothing to Blissey, but so does Milotic, Starmie, Zapdos, Porygon 2 and multiple other mons. That's not an argument and C isn't super high anyway.

    Pursuit Umbreon is "do nothing" mon that works only vs defensive teams without enough damage output to kill it during rest cycles or wish/protect retardation. Every team has worse matchups but this set of Umbreon has too many. It does absolutely nothing to steels. OK you can remove steels with Magneton but good luck vs strong fighting types. Meanlock variant can immediately baton pass to Dugtrio. Pursuit either dies or force you to take huge damage on something else.

    I wrote how I feel about Raikou in previous post. Venusaur growing popularity just killed any hope for Raikou and hp ice isn't really a solution, because Swampert is everywhere.

    Ludicolo is fairly good, but I feel like it should be slightly below it's current rank. I don't really care about rain dancers in general, they are too easily walled. I prefer sunny day abusers that can pass special walls with explosion, although I'm aware that Ludicolo is much better than let's say Exeggutor, if special walls aren't present.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  12. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    It checks it though. In combination with say Skarm or something, you usually cover it fine.

    It still takes HP Grass reasonably well. It has good offensive presence vs stuff not called special walls. Camerupt obviously suits more defensive teams, Lanturn suits harder stalls which don't care about offensive presence and would rather wall more things. I don't see why that's not enough for C-.

    No I mean literaly, why use it instead of blissey aside from for Perish Song which is a super mediocre move. I don't see this higher than C-.

    Edit: I guess it bodies crocune, but so does Vaporeon, Quagsire, and Mantine.

    Idk I win games with it. It's the only mon that can trap starmie and it's much better than ttar or houndoom as trapping claydol to. With Protect, it's not as vulnerable vs CB Mons, as you can scout them. With Wish, you can pass wishes to support mons liable to getting worn down (Cune is a perfect example) which switches into most CBers. It doesn't need to do anything to steels to be effective at suport: passing wishes reliably and pursuiting a number of Pokemon that are relevant to the hazard war are realy importan roles. It is a "do nothing" mon sure, but that suits me fine. Strong fighting types are uncommon, and duggy traps the most common one anyway. It's not meant to sweep or clean or even not be set-up bait for things. I think you fundamentally want it to be something that it isn't. Wish + Pursuit support, with the ability to stomach hits and retaliate with Toxic vs special attackers, and protect to scout CBers - these are all really positive traits that altogether make it a viable alternative to ttar when teambuilding stall and bulky balance teams.

    Honestly I haven't used CM Spam before and I've barely used rain so honestly I can't really comment on any of this but I feel like someone else needs to have some input into the conversation, as CMspam at least used to be a prominent playstyle and rain has seen some popularity over the past several months I think.

    ---

    In light of the rcent vote, [​IMG] needs a spot on the VR again.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  13. Deadboots

    Deadboots Resident Lethargarian Host Emeritus

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    Gengar never "checks" shadow ball lax. A check is a Pokémon that can 1v1 the Pokémon it's meant to check if given a free switch. At best Gengar is forcing a rest by wisping, but even after a wisp it can't stay in on lax. Discussing Skarm in tandem with it is not a valid argument in its favor - by that logic, toxic blissey is a great check to thick fat lax if it is used with Skarm.
     
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  14. Ibidem

    Ibidem Member

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    Also 90% of curse Snorlaxes are paired with Magneton.

    Ah I incorectly read your post about Lapras Disaster Area. Cleric Blissey alone can't counter a Cune. It's only temporary answer and after that you need to phaze it and Lapras provides that. Sure you can phaze it with Skarmory or Swampert while Cune is asleep, but lapras is just immune to water and has 4x ice resist. So even rare rest talk won't touch it. Perish song is also best solution vs last mons. Great move.
     
  15. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    CM Spam is inconsistent; Cune/Cele/Rachi versions are probably the best, Raik versions drop Duggy, which is dumb; or P2 which is pretty bad also. Raikou is just inconsistent, i really don't know what "other" teams these are where it is being played, but it is definitely not amazing on CM Spam by any stretch of the imagination; if anything it makes that team more match up based by dropping utility in p2/dug or dropping other useful stuff like boom gar. B i guess, B- works too; not B+ imo

    The win game argument is fine, but its a slippery slope no? Because UD wins all the time with Venusaur, is that grounds for it being A rank? On its own merits though Umbreon has some ok niches, bulkier Pursuit trapper to help out Lax/Flygon with Wish and not force sand on to the team sounds ok, its only somewhere in the C ranks anyway.

    Where on these harder stalls would you place Lanturn while still being viable; but again it does have a niche, and is playable, I like Umbreon far more than Lanturn though, because the niche is more quantifiable i guess?

    I want to say that Venusaur also probably should be in B rank, I mean I admit its over Celebi a lot of the time, but it is quite good in its own right. Problem is I don't think there are too many teams where a straight Celebi -> Venu swap doesn't introduce gaps versus other stuff, so I'm fine if I am not agreed with here.

    Cloyster is fine in B, with Skarm Mag being so popular, I think its nice to have a way to force more than 1 layer; although it is frequently restricted to 2 layers and boom, in a lot of the cases that I have seen.

    What's wrong with Donphan in C+? oo, its mediocre but workable this rank implies that to an extent.

    Registeel is definitely a C+ mon I'd say :']. It works for sure, but the advantages it had over Jirachi aren't big enough for me to always want it over say Asta Rachi.

    Yama is also a bit overrated, maybe test a bit more? I don't know it feels like most of the time, it knocks something off, and then just sits in Rest cycles. It checks Tyranitar really well...I guess.

    I think one off games, shouldn't be used to justify stuff like Lapras :']. Bit unreliable, I can see why it can work but why use this over say Vaporeon? Is Perish Song that huge of a dealbreaker?

    Moltres in B- is ok I mean, Moltres TSS is pretty dangerous in and of itself, and if I'm using Moltres I am looking less at the defensive value it provides, and more to the offense it brings to the table. Spikes+WoW make it an effective status shuffler to an extent, while on the straight up offensive side Gar+Molt+Dug is pretty effective versus some builds. Again fine if you keep it in C+ because it is hard to actually fit on to teams sometimes.

    Weezing's niche is probably a toxic pivot, that can spread burns effectively versus Cele/Skarm/Bliss with spikes down; while at the same time being able to cut off their recovery via Taunt(stopping Spikes is a bonus :']). I admit this is a bit of unique niche that not every team is looking for but, also worth mentioning is that it is one of the best Heracross counters for bulkier teams.

    Weather is inconsistent as it is....what's the arguement for it being B as opposed to B-, other than generally thinking it is a reasonably effective sweeper. On a side note it probably is better than Kingdra but, Kingdra's good physical bulk sometimes affords it more room to get going in a late game; Ludicolo and Kingdra both need the same preparation for a sweep in like boom gar and/or dugtrio...why not both in B-? Effective but requiring a lot of support.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Hypnosis / Dbond / pivoting are also worth mentioning. Maybe Tar is a better partner to mention. Gar works really well partnered with other common normal resits to handle lax, and although it usually means more switching around, making the game more prediction-heavy can work for as wel asgainst you. Also thick fat lax is honestly a joke imo. But I would argue, although not as forcefully, that yes, if thick fat lax was common, then toxic bliss to some extent helps handle snorlax.
    Perish Song is only good on really hard stalls though imo: harder than the sort I use and I use harder than most people use inthis offensive spikes- and TSS-filled metagame. I guess we can describe Lapras's niche then as: a very hard cune stop with Perish Song, as well as Heal Bell and Roar. To me that's C- material at best. If we add D rank I propose moving Lapras down to D, alongside Poliwrath, Lanturn, and putting in Shedinja and Shuckle there too.
    I think it's fine so long as it's not your whole argument. I gave a number of other points so I think alongside the fact I've won ladder and tournament games with it, it adds to the discussion. It works nicely either with the mons you mentioned, or on a stall team with Forretress and Gengar.

    Thinking about it, it kinda hs Lapras syndrome: what can it do that Blissey can't? Only thing I can think of is Water STAB and Volt Absorb. It probably fits on some hard stall somewhere... agreeing it isn't very good though. Maybe put it into D if we make D.

    if it gets worn down or forced to rest tar can beat it too lmao. It really is overrated :(

    The thing with weezing is it doesn't have much of a niche over gar is all. It does all of the things you just said lol. The main differences are speed/typing+bulk/physical power/pursuit weakness. It does have a niche, I just feel it's so specific that it shouldn't be ranked too high.
     
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  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think comparing Weezing with Gengar is like comparing Umbreon with Pursuit TTar. There's a lot of similarities, and the latter has more upsides overall, which is a part of why it's far more common, but there are distinct niches for the former in each case, meaning that on certain teams they are preferable and can definitely be effective. The lower viability rank indicates for them more their relative unsplashability than utility. Other Pokemon which are less useful but more splashable are similarly viable on the whole.

    Weezing is basically a gengar that stallbreaks rather than cleans, beats lax on its own rather than in tandem with its teammates, and doesn't spinblock.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
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  18. Ibidem

    Ibidem Member

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    [​IMG]C -> B-
    To explain further why Weezing in my opinion deserves B- rank:

    Weezing is all in one solution to counter curse Snorlax, Heracross and it's only reliable haze user. Weezing fits really well on non spikes team, because haze doesn't abuse them. Other than spikes scenario it's overall better move than counters last mon issue. To counter curse Snorlax you need either defensive Celebi that dies to Heracross or Tyranitar/Gengar combo to scout for Snorlax coverage move. Haze on Gengar is a joke option, while both Celebi and Tyranitar have access to phazing moves, they also increase Heracross vulnerability. If Suicune issue is already covered by for example Snorlax or Zapdos you can skip on Celebi and add Weezing to lineup.

    It's especially good on Claydol & Magneton teams because these usually rely on defensive Suicune as phazer. Meaning that you must give up on ice beam on bulky water. This somewhat force you to use ice beam on Claydol. I love Claydol, I think it's best spinner but in my opinion this mon is very bad without explosion. Haze Weezing solves this issue allowing Suicune to use ice beam over roar or you can swap Milotic over it if you choose to. In result of that Claydol no longer needs ice beam on this team archetype and explosion is great emergency move to have as a back up.

    Example lineup of Claydol & Magneton team with Weezing:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Because Weezing can't 1KO or even 2KO Heracross like Salamence does and sludge bomb secondary effect can trigger guts, adding sand stream may help with this issue. Pursuit Tyranitar also removes Gengar, which allows you to use other coverage move on Snorlax than shadow ball. Team already has two EQ users while there is no physical answer to Celebi. Crunch is not enough vs calm mind variant so hidden power bug fits. It's nice surprise move on Snorlax and unlike EQ can finish off Gengar if Tyranitar fails at this task (although it does pathetic damage to Gengar but still better than 0). With toxic on Milotic and Snorlax as physical answer to Suicune - there is no need for Celebi, especially since there are no spikes. As we can see Weezing is great glue on this team that solves no phazing/heracross answer issues, as well as adding EQ immunity and ability to spread status. Gengar with Tyranitar here could also check curse Snorlax and Heracross but at the cost of haze. You also need to remember that Gengar can be eliminated by pursuit trappers and after that there is no switches into curse EQ Snorlax. While Weezing is also vulnerable to pursuit, it's still far harder to kill than Gengar, because of neutrality to dark moves and healing via pain split. If you don't like sand on curse Snorlax team you can replace Metagross over Tyranitar, but then you probably need shadow ball on Snorlax. In both scenarios Weezing does his job well.

    Milotic @ Leftovers
    Ability: Marvel Scale
    EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Toxic
    - Recover

    Weezing @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 64 SpD / 24 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Haze
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

    Tyranitar @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 200 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
    Quiet Nature
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit

    Claydol @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 108 Def / 96 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Psychic
    - Rapid Spin
    - Explosion

    Magneton @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    Snorlax @ Leftovers
    Ability: Immunity
    EVs: 144 HP / 144 Atk / 60 Def / 144 SpD / 16 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Curse
    - Rest
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  19. Coffe

    Coffe Member

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    I used both Lapras and "GSC-style" Umbreon, and yes, I can confirm that they're good Pokemons if placed in the right team.

    Talking about Lapras Disaster Area said
    But he didn't considered the amazing offensive pressure that he can keep; with the boltbeam + water coverage you can hit very hard almost every Pokemon in the tier, with the exception of special sponges ofc, basically a bulkyer offensive Starmie with a lot of usefull support moves in the last slot. Perish Song is just one of them. It can force a lot of switches and that's particulary deadly with 3 layers of spikes and the Protect Dugtrio I used in the same team. But there are other options like Sing, Roar, Heal Bell, Confuse Ray, and all these moves have their use. Lapras is very imprevedible.

    Also Umbreon needs the right team to work. The reason why I used it was that I needed a good Starmie and Gengar pursuiter, an effective and high-sustain Curselax counter, and a thing that can lure steel types in (Skarmory in the first place), letting me trap them with Magneton, Umbreon was the only Pokemon capable of doing that, especially paired with a beller which was Celebi in my case, so you don't have to rely on the low-pp and nerfed by sandstorm Moonlight and can play Rest. Not the best Pokemon if your team is Metagross weak or if you don't have a beller, but it can work.
     
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  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Gengar works better than weezing there though because you literally get 6-0d by taunt dd gyarados? At the very least you have to play carefully around it. And it doesn't exactly have the best win condition: hp bug curselax. I mean really, I'm sure there's much better weezing teams than the one you posted, you're not even trying lmao. It seems like some kind of elaborate joke.
     

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