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ADV OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by hclat, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    YES YES YES YES YES

    Will edit with actual reasons later.
     
    Cowboy Dan and PhilosopherKing like this.
  2. PhilosopherKing

    PhilosopherKing Member

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    I am hesitant to move Magneton'a viability rank for the following reasons:

    1) Doing so sets a bad precedent for how we will be treating viability ranking the future. While I absolutely agree that Magneton has become more useful with the increased presence of a skarmory, that trend only indicates how popular Skarmory has become, rather than indicating how good Magneton itself is as a Pokémon. Suppose for some reason that Vaporeon became more popular, would it follow that Zapdos should move to S rank simply because of increased usage?

    2) In relation to other Pokémon that have an A rank, it falls absolutely short. All the Pokémon in A rank have the ability clean in the later parts of the game. In contrast, Magneton struggles with doing so and is often used for fodder in the later stages when it has done its primary job: Taking care of Skarmory. In addition, Magneton fits with the definition of B rank, which is a Pokémon that does well but has significant flaws. Yes, it can be used as a temporary check to Jolteon, Gengar, and Rock Slide pokes, but it still has trouble doing much of anything else on its own.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
    Ugly Duckling, eden and Cowboy Dan like this.
  3. deluks917

    deluks917 Host Emeritus

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    Why isn't skarm in S? After Tyranitar skarmory is probably the most dominant pokemon in the metagame right now, and its been this dominant for over a year.

    Bird (Skarmory) (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
    Careful Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Protect
    - Spikes
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind

    There are very few mus where this pokemon isn't a powerhouse. In order to neutralize it they basically need a magneton and a spinner. If they don't have a magneton skarm's toxic/ww is going to provide tons of defensive value throughout the game. Unless they have a spinner AND a magneton skarm is going to provide spikes support. Neither starmie nor claydol can handle the spikes without magneton's help.

    I started to think Skarm was very strong when I was playing special offense on the ladder. I had Suicune(cm offensive)/Ceebi(cm 3 attacks)/Jirachi(cm 3 attacks)/Raikou(cm roar)/Dugtrio/Porygon2. This is a team with 4 strong special attackers but skarm was STILL strong vs me. Lets assume i have sub on suicune not roar because if I don't have sub I am flat out losing the turn1 mu. Lets look at some different turn1 move combos and the payoffs 9to keep this to four cases I will not hydro turn1 and they won't whirlwind)

    Case 1: CM vs Toxic

    I am completely screwed here. Skarm gets a huge edge.

    Case2: CM vs Spikes

    Next turn I hydro for 63-76% while they roar me out. This is pretty good for me but they do have a spike down as compensation. The hydro can miss in which case skarm won clean.

    Case3: Sub vs Spikes

    Next turn I hydro for 42.7 to 50.5 and they get a spike. This favors the skarm team imo. Especially since hydro can miss.

    Case4: Sub vs Toxic

    I will probably hydro here as suicune. Either they eat two hydros for the spike+WW or they swap out. This obviously favors suicune.

    In the end this analysis worked out in a mixed way. But the fact that this lead mu was even contested was surprising to me. Skarm is just super powerful.

    ====

    Just to provide data lets look at the current OU pokemon and see what value skarmory provides vs them:

    Tyranitar - Good DDtar check (non-taunt), helps alot vs ddtar. Skarm is bad vs special tar and useless vs taunt-tar
    Gengar - Skarm is terribad
    Celebi - Skarm is a great counter to most sets. It even only takes 35-41.3% from a max special attack timid celebi hp-fire.
    Suicune - Skarm can toxic sets with sub/rest. It can WW out rest sets. Turn1 Skarm vs Cm suicune is almost a tossup as if suciune eats a toxic its screwed.
    Swampert - Skarm toxics/spikes on pert
    Salamence - Skarm does a ton vs band mence. It can comfortably
    Metagross - Skarm sets up on metagross
    Jirachi - Skarm is normally very bad vs jirachi. Though it can WW out some sets in a pinch.
    Snorlax - Skarm spikes/WWs snorlax reliably
    Zapdos - Skarm is bad vs Zapdos. Though Zapdos has trouble swapping in due to toxic.
    Aerodactyl - Skarm is a great aero check
    Blissey - Skarm spikes up vs normal blissey. It can take 50% to spike once vs cm blissey and can toxic cm blissey in the endgame (come up all the time)
    Dugtrio - Skarm punishes trio with a free layer of spikes
    Starmie - Starmie can counter spikes but bulky starmie has trouble vs skarm 1 vs 1. Surf only does 29-34%.
    Jolteon - Starmie is bad vs Jolteon
    Heracross - Current skarm doesn't really do anything but Whirlwind/toxic(risking guts) a haeracross
    Flygon - Skarm does alot of work, even vs fireblast variants.
    Magneton - pretty obvious how magneton works vs skarm. However vs non-magnet magneton you are heavily favored to get two layers.
    Forretress - Skarm is terrible vs forretress
    Milotic - If Milotic has already used hypnosis skarm is a great swap and threatens to cripplt milo with toxic.
    Raikou - Skarm is terrible vs raikou
    Gyarados - Skarm is useless vs the taunt variant. Its an op counter to non-taunt gyarados.
    Porygon2 - Toxicing p2 severely cripples it and skarm only takes about 50% from the tbolt. Some porygon2 don't carry tbolt and skarm can come in on toxic/recover
    Regice - Skarm is pretty bad vs regice but it can toxic it.
    Claydol - Starmie can toxic and easily outlast claydol though claydol undoes skarms work.

    Basically skarm puts in decent work vs everything but: Gengar, jirachi, Zapdos, starmie, Jolteon, Heracross, Raikou, Regice, Forretress and Claydol. And several of these can't safely switch in because of toxic.

    A huge percentage of ladder and tournament games are domianted by Skarmory.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
    CALLOUS, Ugly Duckling, eden and 3 others like this.
  4. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    I personally don't agree with this first point, you can argue this for a lot of pokemon that are currently high on the viability rankings Particularly defensive Pokemon. Viability definitely depends on other pokemon in the metagame and the relationships between how various pokemon perform against each other is definitely something to take in to consideration. For example, while Swampert has a ton of things going for it, one of the largest reasons it is at the top of A rank is because it is extremely reliable against Tyranitar, the most dangerous and most common Pokemon in the tier. Magneton is a reactionary pokemon, the decision to include it on a team depends almost entirely on how worried you are about skarmory, and a decision to ignore this reason for its viability as an in general would make this list strongly biased towards offensive pokemon.

    Your second point though I think is definitely valid and something we need to discuss. I don't necessarily agree that Magneton has trouble doing things on its own, and I personally believe a lot of the time magneton can get much more use once its done is job than people give it credit for. There are tons of teams that magneton can provide a surprising amount of offensive pressure to just due to the switches it forces, the threat of status and its powerful STAB. That being said, you absolutely cannot rely on it as a counter to any pokemon in the tier because of how vulnerable it is to trappers (mainly dugtrio but it also has an iffy match up against itself) which is definitely a reason to leave it in B as this is a significant flaw especially considering that many of the things I mentioned it checks are often paired with at least one of these trappers.

    Thank you for bringing this up. I think this is something very important that has to be discussed. Traditionally the main things holding skarm back from S rank are that, it is incredibly vulnerable to Magneton which means it really can't be relied upon defensively. If for example your only answer to Snorlax is skarmory, then your team is weak to snorlax because of how often it is paired with magneton. The same can be said for things like celebi or even just relying on it as your only phazer. It also doesn't really fit the versatility definition as all of its sets function very similarly and has next to 0 offensive presence. That being said, all of your points are valid so the question becomes if the insane utility it provides as well as its ability to match up well against so many pokemon as you mentioned are enough to look over these flaws.
     
  5. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    I want to nominate Claydol to fall down to B-

    I honestly think its getting less and less viable, it's a rock resist but I can't justify using it on any team except for one desperately weak to Spikes. And even so which spiker exactly do you win versus? Flygon basically fulfills almost exactly the same role Claydol does defensively without hitting like a wet tissue.

    Skarmory uses Toxic on you, Forry keeps spikes unless you're running HP:Fire, Cloyster keeps its Spikes really easily, and to boot, its not even that solid of a check versus bulky DD Tar.

    You do like...35% to bulky DDTar with EQ. The most viable archetype for Claydol is perhaps Claydol+Magneton, but just Claydol by itself I think is definitely not that good atm.

    I want to also support previous nominations for Skarmory to go to S. So many reasons have been reiterated, but I think it's worth noting that so much of how a team performs is based on its ability to deal with Toxic Skarmory, and the hazards(at least one layer) that it will get even versus a team running Magneton. Admittedly being trapped is bad, but arguably the only reason most teams are running Magneton for is Skarmory(well its rock resist is valuable defensively, and trapping Forry is valuable too, but without Skarmory would Magneton really be as common as it is?)

    Maybe this is a little radical, but I want Lax to go to top of A, the set that really used to be threatening I think was the traditional Curse set, but right now the most effective sets are probably the Mixed variants, or Curse Boom Lax, all of which have lost their surprise value to an extent. It doesn't help that Fire Blast Lax still lets hazards from Skarmory go up, or that Sandstorm+Spikes eats into the traditional CurseLax's viability so much.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
  6. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Extended discussion between me, Dan and Sunny in a discord:
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:43 AM
    o yeah i've just wanted to
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:43 AM
    I feel like definitely mag should move up
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:43 AM
    play more and get a better feel for the game
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:44 AM
    also meta and mence should move to top of A behind skarm
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:44 AM
    hmm
    mind linking me rankings
    on phone
    s/o to my friend
    for cracking laptop screen
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:44 AM
    rip
    S - ttar gar cele cune
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:44 AM
    one sec sunny
    ADV 1U (OverUsed) - Viability Rankings | Page 3 | Pokémon Perfect
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:44 AM
    A+ - pert mence meta skarm rachi lax
    A - zap aero bliss dug star
    A- - jolt hera flygon
    uh I think A- should be reordered jolt flygon mag hera
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:45 AM
    hmm
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:45 AM
    because that feels right
    the metagame isnt quite conducive to heracross
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:45 AM
    i agree with pert
    in A+
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:45 AM
    too much fast things
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:45 AM
    I think its the defensive
    kingpin
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:45 AM
    too much sand which makes it hard
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    i personally think jolt is easily the best thing in A- but whenever i suggest that i get pushback
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    plus its kind of limited vs a lot of teams
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    I think with all the mixed mons flying around
    milo might be A-
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    jolt is EASILY the best thing in A-
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    but lack of rock resist
    is crucial
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    there's an argument for A
    yeah milo still floats well with a lot of rock resists though
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    i'd say jolt
    is the most
    prediciton reliant
    out of the A- mons
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    thats flygon
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    flygon is most consistent
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    and heracross
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    in a defensive sense
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    flygon is sooo prediction reliant
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:46 AM
    like come on jolt is least prediction reliant
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    Cross is also more dangerous
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    even heracross relies a lot on clicking the right button at the right time
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    it does
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    jolt can toxic or wish mindlessly
    or roar
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    i think jolt also lands up
    with v samey
    builds
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    idk how its prediction reliant
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    i think like the sets i use maybe are
    like i tent to use lots of roar jolt
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:47 AM
    samey builds only happen for unimaginative players
    like my cbrachi + jolt team was pure fire
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    so maybe that's why i find myself thinking you need to think a little more with it
    also i just like zap more
    4Head
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    I like zap more too
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    that's almost part of the charm of jolt though, it has very similar builds but that last move can make a huge difference and is hard to predict because of the similarity
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    y
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    but they are about equal
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    i think
    Dol is a little
    worse
    than B
    i don't rate it
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    and jolt has a lot of ways to swing without having to be like cbzap fullout crazy
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    v much lol
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    agreed
    fuck claydol
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    arguably camerupt has a good niche
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    jolt and zap while their move sets look the same a lot of the time, they play so differently it's hard to compare them
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:48 AM
    maybe upto B-
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:49 AM
    Also I feel like A+ should be reordered to better reflect the metagame
    like mence meta skarm pert rachi
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:49 AM
    I think Aero is always A+ tho
    imo anyway
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:49 AM
    but thats just me
    aero =/= A+
    a lot of aero builds are samey
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:49 AM
    they are
    its the same tar/skarm/pert/gar/aero/filler for the most part and not because of lack of imagination
    its just that
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    aero is one of the scariest most consistent mons in the tier but it's also like the least versatile mon in the tier
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    it is probably
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    anyways I do think skarm should be higher in A+
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    the most consistent setup for it
    skarm should be higher imo
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    deluks917 said something about it going to S
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    its the biggest reason
    for mag
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    which wasnt all that crazy now I think about it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    i mean come on lets be honest
    like with out skarm would you ever bother to run mag
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    maybe
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    rly
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:50 AM
    mag resists boltbeam which is nice
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    i guess
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    its a rock resist
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    i don't think i would
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    i wouldn't either
    if i wanted rock resist
    i could run pert or gon
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    mag's only real problem is that trapping skarm is the only thing it does that meta and jirachi dont
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    y
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    the fact that it's so dug weak just makes all its other advantages not really worth it
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    and meta and jirachi are so fucking good jeez
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    mag's viability probably reflects skarms
    at any point of the meta
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:51 AM
    to the point I'd say skarm and jirachi to S-
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:52 AM
    Starmie is good where it is probably
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:52 AM
    y
    bottom of A is more than fair
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:52 AM
    do you really think raikou is that
    solid
    its not bad but
    idt its that good either
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:52 AM
    raikou's ok
    B+ is fine
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:52 AM
    i personally think raikou sucks hella hard lol
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:52 AM
    i'd argue
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:52 AM
    it also does some things vs spec off like checking zap cune and gar
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    regice also is kind of bad
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    but i don't think it sucks hard enough to drop it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    again
    not terrible
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    granted in practice it gets screwed over a ton by sand spikes pert
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    just not good
    in the classic sense
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    but its not terrible and it does things
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    regice is good
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    yeah regice is bad but not terrible
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    it's really hard to switch in to
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    that kind of applies to the entire B rank excluding p2 and milo
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    and forry
    don't forget forry
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:53 AM
    yep
    I've also been digging ludicolo a ton
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:54 AM
    B+ is probably where i call the line on serious teams now
    i think rupt is better than C+
    electrics
    are just rly good i think
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:54 AM
    cause so standard teams hate losing their sand and getting relentlessly seeded
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:54 AM
    altho in practice
    it ends up getting toxiced
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:54 AM
    yeah
    I think people underrate Camerupt's offensive niche a ton though
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    Cloyster might be worth a rise if you think skarm is really good
    because i reckon more skarm
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    its kind of like alolawak where people think (o it walls elecs)
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    means more mag
    so cloyster teams get a bit better
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    and miss its scary af stab combo and surprisingly high power level
    y
    cloy is really good rn
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    again nothing
    major
    just small shifts here and there
    I think Venu
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    cloy to like top of B seems fair
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    is underprepared for
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    venu and rupt for B-
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:55 AM
    v good vs some teams
    might be a bit better
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:56 AM
    maybe zam too
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:56 AM
    than C+
    o i like Zam on tss quite a bit
    dan's more knowledgable
    on it tho
    can we drop
    dusclops a little more
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:56 AM
    zam's good, but idk if id put it above C+
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:56 AM
    i really think
    that mon is shit
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:56 AM
    you'd be surprised how often people say 'this has a bad matchup' but venu rupt zam can still do things in bad matchups
    also yeah drop dusclops through the C rank trapdorr
    also can we get back to upper ranks?
    I'd say make an S- for Skarm and Jirachi
    A+ becomes Pert Meta Mence
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:57 AM
    i think venu is matchup neutral in what it does like its bad mu's are easily
    covered
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:57 AM
    drop lax to A
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:57 AM
    i don't think jirachi is better than pert meta or mence
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:57 AM
    and most of its switchins fear sleep powder
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:57 AM
    also yeah
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:57 AM
    don't like leech
    and forry can't spike on HP:Fire
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    sludge bomb and leech also harass a bunch of switchins
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    HP:ice punishes mence nicely
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    like celebi doesnt sit on sbomb
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    Sludge bomb is good if you're v raik weak
    SD can be effective vs some teams esp with mag in the pocket
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    venu is good i've been using it a fair amount lately, but lack of recovery definitely hurts it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    there is stuff it can do imo
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    covering celebi is that much easier cause a lot of people tend to sleep on it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    and i use
    venu
    way more than vapo
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    there are a lot of games where i think i would have won this if this was a celebi
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    y
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:58 AM
    and its extremely easy to lose your skarm or aero to offensive cm
    you can run wish
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    the concurrent is rarely true
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    speaking of which thats one of the key reasons I think Rachi should be S-
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    idk donphan
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    cause its so fucking good in this metagame like jeez
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    has been underwhleming
    whenever
    peop;le bring it vs me
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    donphan's like borderline ok
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    its like a more bulky pert
    that still gets toxiced
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 9:59 AM
    donphan is kinda like claydol except worse vs gar but way better vs tar
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    it hits slightly harder but has no ice beam
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    and still needs tar support to get its spin off
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    you can also hp ghost to hit gar
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    yeah its way better
    vs tar and worse vs gar
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    which is something
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    that's true
    i'd just say use phan+tar
    but that stacks up weaknesses to offensive waters
    really easily
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    its ok where it is I guess
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:00 AM
    it kinda needs mag support as well imo just because skarm just comes right back in on it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:01 AM
    like tar/phan/mag already looks like cm cune
    well
    offensive cm cune
    harasses you
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:01 AM
    cm cune takes you to church
    so you need celebi or zapdos
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:01 AM
    need a more sp.defensive bi spread probably
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:01 AM
    then you need a way of actually exerting pressure on teams aside from just removing their hazards
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:02 AM
    you either end up dittoing cune with cm cel
    and offensive cune is good with dug
    and you're sp.defensive
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:02 AM
    y
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:02 AM
    draw your own conclusions on my thoughts of that
    4Head
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:02 AM
    Can we get back to discussion? Building a Donphan team is not on my list of priorities
    (also I will demote you both)
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:02 AM
    offensive roar cune is a solid donphan partner
    ok done
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:03 AM
    those teams are passive without winning anything new that tar/for/pert/gar/bliss/filler doesn't
    f
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:03 AM
    yeah thats what I was saying
    core does nothing but keep hazards off
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:03 AM
    granted maybe i pidgeon hole myself
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:03 AM
    you kill skarm gar then let the other four members grind you into oblivion
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:03 AM
    with celebi there but that or dug
    are probably the most consistent options
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:03 AM
    ok
    S-
    skarm and jirachi
    thoughts?
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    I think
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    i don't think jirachi is S-
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    Gar might be S+
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    gar might be
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    it might be me
    overrating it tho
    o i forgot i also think molt
    might do with a raise
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    but jeez dan idk how you do not understand Jirachi's greatness
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    sub wow is a great set
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    its just so fucking good
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    what kind of jira
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    yeah molt higher would be nice
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    i reckon most dangerous is just mixed
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    it's great but like A+ is where great pokemon are
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    I dont think houndoom or medicham are above it
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:04 AM
    i wouldn't call it meta defining
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:05 AM
    its not meta defining b/c people run standard ass squads that dont use it
    astarachi has no switchins
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:05 AM
    i think molt is better than doom
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:05 AM
    mixed or cb shreds holes in stall
    wish cm is still one of the best wincons around
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:05 AM
    cb is vulnerable to eating spikes and revealing set, but mixed
    with your own spikes vs stall
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:05 AM
    hell dug should be scared of this thing
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:05 AM
    4Head
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    cb click doom desire and something melts
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    well if you mixed or cb duggy probably revenges easily no?
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    people dont expect it
    yeah but doom desire into dug and the damage is done
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    eh
    pushing it
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    people rarely hard switch dug in to rachi
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    you're assuming cb right?
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    y
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:06 AM
    you doom desire and.....IF dug comes in
    which it shouldn't
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:07 AM
    but yeah bliss lax tar all face the same end result
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:07 AM
    it eqs
    you die
    it dies
    this is relying on them
    being bad
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:07 AM
    or you kill dug the next turn and then watch something else die
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:07 AM
    bliss and lax aren't exactly common rachi switch ins either
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:07 AM
    you guys have no idea how much I hyperventilate upon seeing Jirachi's sprite
    shits scary
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    if lax doesn't have eq (and sometimes even if it does) it straight up loses to rachi 1v1
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    cm bliss loses
    in the cm war
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    because it could be any one of a billion things
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    long term
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    exactly
    fucking everything loses to jirachi
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    lax straight up loses
    guys use
    cm psychic toxic
    4Head
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    i've actually considered trying that with mag support
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:08 AM
    like fr fucking everything loses to a wellplayed jirachi with the right set
    and the support crew it needs is minimal and nothing out of the ordinary
    if thats not S- idk what is
    meanwhile its also a rock resist that checks gengar and wish glues a shitton of teams together
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:10 AM
    cm rachi with wish = underrated threat
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:10 AM
    why are we still having the 'no S- for rachi discussion'
    just move it the hell up
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:11 AM
    well im not gonna do anything until you guys post lol
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:11 AM
    sigh
    what're your thoughts dan?
    also I just noticed
    we had this all in the team flying chat
    rip
    someone be ready to c/p it all
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:12 AM
    for jirachi? personally i don't see it as S-, i think a lot of the arguments you're using could be applied to other pokemon like mence, meta, hell even heracross. I think rachi is a really good poke but it's also currently surrounded by other really good pokes in the viab rankings
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:12 AM
    yeah
    i agree with that
    wait
    maybe not hera
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:12 AM
    hera does jack defensively
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    yeah
    well
    unless you want to convince me that stalk cross
    is the optimal set
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    and all the mons you mentioned can get shut down by a certain team / player
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    4Head
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    i was more talking about the whole teams straight up losing it it argument
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    o
    definitely
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    which is definitely true for hera
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    its a legit
    threat
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    whole teams can straight up lose to jirachi
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    i think hera can be
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    not saying it should be moved up
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    more devastating
    than
    jolt or aero
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    standard teams straight up lose to jirachi
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    conditions
    provided
    o i agree witht that also
    some teams crumble
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    plus its got the 'I can be anything' factor that nothing else has
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    yes and standard teams lose to hera but hera clearly isn't S
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:13 AM
    to the wrong rachi set
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:14 AM
    Heracross you have a good idea what you're getting
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:14 AM
    fair enough
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:14 AM
    and if you're good at the game you have some fucking counterplay to it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:14 AM
    you know that its CB or SD Salac
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:14 AM
    even protecting on hera is enough
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:14 AM
    don't make me say stalk
    lol
    with rachi
    you have
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    with rachi you try and play too passively or too offensively you might have just lost there
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    super rachi/asta rachi/cm wish rachi/mixed rachi all as viable sets each excelling vs dif teams
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    ok but let's talk about mence for example, the wrong set can really fuck you up, and like rachi it provides a huge amount of defensive utility to a team
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    y
    mence has the same
    arguement
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    why shouldn't that be s using this logic?
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    this logic applies
    to almost
    all of A+
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    mence provides less in defensive utility I guess
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    except like pert/skarm
    =0
    i gotta
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    rachi is a rock resist
    rachi checks gengar
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    i disagree, intimidate is huge
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    rachi checks electrics
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:15 AM
    disagree
    mence can be huge
    defensively
    well
    can be
    rock resist is arguably
    more important
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:16 AM
    still less than handling gar aero and electrics in one slot
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:16 AM
    woof
    y
    well only
    if asta rachi
    does it handle elecs
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:16 AM
    also mence can walk in on certain things and get shut down
    nah
    wishcm does a decent job
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:16 AM
    o yeah that too
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:16 AM
    and jolt struggles to put a dent in even offensive rachi sets
    without spikes support
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:16 AM
    jolt is weak tho
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:17 AM
    a well played mence can turn a guaranteed loss around with good intimidate predicts
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:17 AM
    not necessarily
    a lot of teams have counterplay to it
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:17 AM
    yes i've done it on multiple occasions
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:17 AM
    i think
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:17 AM
    with rachi your counterplay is wha they'll inscribe on your gravestone
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:17 AM
    mix mence
    is most
    dangerous
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:17 AM
    mixmence is scary af
    but it provides the least defensively
    also there have been times when dclaw is too weak for my tastes
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:18 AM
    mixmence again
    is really only amazing
    vs certain teams
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:18 AM
    rachi sort of chains offensive pressure along with defensive utility on the same set in a way that only tar and gar really do
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:19 AM
    i don't know personallly i think people heavily underrate the defensive value mence provides to a team
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:19 AM
    I never do
    But I do tend to be skeptical in scenarios against like tyranitar metagross and aero
    well I'm not above panic doubling mence into aero but still
    sigh
    mence above pert I guess
    I never agreed with pert for top of A+ anyways
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:20 AM
    :[
    i think
    pert is really good defensively
    if prone to getting boomed on
    or lured
    maybe not top of A+
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:21 AM
    Yeah
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:21 AM
    but A+
    in my book
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:21 AM
    That's the problem with it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:21 AM
    also gets toxiced a lot but i think all of those
    are down to careless players
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:22 AM
    It's definitely A+ but it would not have been top of A+ if UD and CALLOUS hadn't scrapped for it
    SunnyORAS-Last Wednesday at 10:22 AM
    i haven't gotten HP:Grassed by tar/mence/boomed on in a while
    but then again i conserve it
    a bit much
    so that probably makes me over estimate it
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:33 AM
    Anyways @SunnyORAS do you have any thoughts about how I write the church of tyranitar?
    Nah
    Taunt Toxic can play Hella support too
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:33 AM
    yeah every tar set can though
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:33 AM
    Taunt is just so useful as a support cog
    Cause shutting down defensive jirachi so it can't keep healing, stopping skarm from getting layers
    Is so so good
    It's a stall breaker I guess
    Not a pure wallbreaker that's cb
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:34 AM
    all im saying is its just really hard to compare pursuit sets to other sets because the value they provide a team is completely different
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:34 AM
    Yeah
    I just like pursuit less I guess
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:35 AM
    well yeah definitely more supporty than cb but id say its main job is to land toxic on pert so that aero doesn't have to worry about it
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:35 AM
    Anyways BRB gotta study for my exams
    Taunt Toxic tar has a lot more jobs than that but yeah
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:35 AM
    yes but it's main job
    anyway, don't forget to post this stuff in the thread guys
    BedWars Champion-Last Wednesday at 10:37 AM
    K
    Cowboy Dan-Last Wednesday at 10:37 AM
    i can't make changes if you guys don't suggest them where everyone who cares about the thread can see and make counter arguments

    Fuck formatting, but yeah that's got a lot of the points and arguments we put down. tldr Skarm should probably move up to S, Jirachi too (will write an actual argument when I can be bothered), Jolt to top of A- and Mag to the bottom of it, Mence to top A+, Venu Zam Camel to B-, a few other things I cant recall.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
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  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    that log is kind of unreadable without u editing it. I did a bit of it but then realised i can't be bothered

    Either that or you go through it and make a more complete summary of what's being asked for and the arguments for those changes presented
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
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  8. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Yeah and if you actually read through it there wasn't complete consensus (or any consensus) on a few of the things you put in the tldr. Would definitely prefer it if you condensed your arguments down for the things you mentioned.
     
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  9. doom desire misses noSTAB

    doom desire misses noSTAB Member

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    Yes - Snorlax should drop!
    In fact, Blissey > Snorlax. Best Normal type in OU.

    Blissey fares way better against all of the modern Sand teams where Tar is Special based. (Not that I think this is playing to Tar's strengths...it is just what many people seem to like to use as a strategy right now.)

    But I digress - I agree with SunnyR's reasoning on Snorlax dropping. On the subject of why Blissey is better comparatively:
    --Natural Cure is amazing and can let it shrug off status easily, unlike Lax (burn sucks, as does poison potentially).
    --Instant recovery makes it less prone to being worn down, compared to Snorlax. Lax would have to Rest, sapping momentum. (Don't get me started on Sleep Talk.)
    --Seismic Toss is actually a decent option for blanket attacking things with and learning about EV spreads, as it is always gonna do 100 hit points damage. Combined with Ice Beam, this would be fairly standard and effective offensive coverage. Easy emergency check to those 4x weak to ice pokes. Lax is often torn with its offensive options. Blissey typically handles Gengar well, and as a bonus can likely beat Tyranitar one-on-one nowadays, or contribute to beating it, it's kind of funny, especially if it has a status move. Until there is a swing back to more immediately attacking, physically invested Tyranitars, Blissey is going to be not so scared and the fact alone that it can check Gengar and Tyranitar in ways that Lax cannot (unless you go Curse/HP Steel lol) is really telling, even as I type this...great role compression for a team.
    --Aromatherapy = underrated, team support.
    --Coincidentally Blissey takes Special attacks, like a Tar Crunch, better. Giving Blissey a Bold nature is gonna do wonders for its physical defense too. Lax has to be given heavy investment in Special Defense, even still. So, if you want to run calcs on some physical attacks that's fine, but I strongly believe that a run of the mill +Def Blissey has better mixed defenses, on both sides of the spectrum, than a Snorlax that is essentially not going to have a +Def nature and need EVs poured into SpDef just to take some Zapdos T-bolts well enough. (So what if Snorlax is Curse... it's a dead set, any high level opponent will have a plan for it. It takes a turn to start setting it up. Sand, status, Skarm, back up Phazing, blah blah blah.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
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  10. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Current Changes:
    [​IMG] -> Top of A+
    Lots of people have been arguing for Skarmory to move to S rank, and while I do think it is just about as dominating as some of the other S rank threats, I don't believe it really fits the definition. If people feel a change in definition is necessary in order to include Skarm, this can be done however for now I'm just going to put it at the top of A+.

    [​IMG] A+ -> A
    I agree with a lot of the arguments being made about Snorlax. Its lack of reliable recovery in combination with its poor speed is its main downfall. Curselax has an incredibly difficult time sweeping these days as even if you manage to remove its counters, it can often find itself overwhelmed in the presence of spikes, sand and powerful attackers since it basically always has to take a hit before it can do anything. Utility sets are still quite solid but are more suited for offensive teams as it has a hard time sticking around in long matches.

    [​IMG] B+ -> A-
    It seems like the majority of people are behind this change, Magneton has a lot of value right now as an anti spikes measure and a pivot in this Skarm heavy metagame.

    Discussion Questions:

    [​IMG]
    Is it worth changing the definition of S rank in order to fit Skarmory in to it?

    [​IMG]
    Is Snorlax still too high?

    [​IMG]
    Is Claydol too high?
    I am not the biggest fan of Claydol however considering what is below it, I'm having a difficult time justifying moving it down. I think it is quite solid on Magneton teams. I definitely would like to see further discussion on this.
     
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  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think Skarm lends itself to being in S. 'These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfil a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.' Put simply, it is one of the most effective pokemon in the metagame. Its defensive prowess and its capability as a spikes setter really are what lends itself to that. Basically don't think the defintion is any barrier to it. Does it feel good enough for S? If so, put it in S.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  12. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    My issue is the definition requires "offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility" Skarmory is insanely good at what it does, has great defensive prowess and offers amazing utility, but it has no offensive prowess whatsoever and is quite lacking in versatility, it almost always does the same thing with a few variations in the set.
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    It says that its offensive and defensive prowess lends to it being an effective Pokemon in the metagame. Ultimately it doesn't mean that it has to have both offensive and defensive prowess, only that it helps it get into S rank. Skarm is so good defensively / as a support Pokemon that it kinda earns it on that merit alone.
     
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  14. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Alright, I guess that makes sense. In that case, I am moving Skarmory to the bottom of S Rank.
     
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  15. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    I'm sorry but I cannot take a person saying that Blissey is a Tyranitar check seriously...cause it really isnt. Also, Snorlax is better than Blissey because it has a solid offensive presence allowing it to take on a few things like SubCune and Jirachi that Bliss just rolls over against.

    Anyways the long awaited justification for all my other proposals:
    Skarm to S or a S-: It doesnt take a genius to realise that Skarm is really really fucking good in the current metagame - there's been a general shift back towards the defensive teams that appreciate spikes support and hate being spiked on, so Skarm is naturally a solid pick. What aids it though, is the fact that there is a decent chunk of the metagame it can just blatantly switch in on, scout with protect, then proceed to Toxic (keeping Pert from trying to go mono a mono with it), Whirlwind (scouting for Magneton or just keeping Metagross from accumulating MM attack boosts), or just lay Spikes down and watch any team take the hurt, opening the possibility of a lategame ddtar or aero sweep.

    What makes skarm truly scary, however, is how little actually wants to switch into it - Toxic is scary to a lot of things, Whirlwind wards off hard mag switches and makes it that much harder to get the trap, and even if you win the battle of the switchin, Skarm's still thrown down spikes that you cant remove (unless you're running a spinner but lol @ that). It also still switches into a lot and hard checks a lot of scary mons while providing the insane utility mentioned above. I mean, jeez.

    Edit this has already been done rip

    Jirachi to S- or top of A+: Its just fucking great. Checks Gengar, its a rock resist (offensive sets with a fighting move actually check tyranitar and it doesnt quite want to fuck with bulkier rachi either), checks Electrics, switches into a hell of a lot more courtesy of solid typing and bulk. And thats just defensively: offensively the cb and mixed sets can just lay down hell on a lot of standard teams with spikes support, punching open a huge hole for aerodactyl or a special sweeper to go to town, CM Jirachi (any of the 5 million variants) is a solid wincon with a solid amount of power, while even AstaRachi is scary offensively by virtue of constantly threatening to para whatever comes in on it. Lastly is Wish which is one of the few countermeasures to Spikes that isnt inherently bad. Nothing really full checks Jirachi and its exceedingly easy to mispredict against it and find yourself in a hole. S-.

    Mence and Jolt should be higher within their respective ranks - both do a lot defensively while being exceedingly scary offensively, provide some utility to their team with toxic and or wish (underrated option, Wish Uber Alles), and are really hard to put in a bad matchup (both do get compromised utterly by certain things but even then you have some counterplay).

    A is fine for Snorlax - it has a lot of issues but I think people also play it wrong - its definitely better as a midgame hole buster (either Mixed or Curse+Boom) that slows down spec offense than the lategame curse sweeper that doesnt work anymore. Its also definitely better than Blissey.

    Claydol is just....too fucking weak to actually do anything in practice while getting chipped relentlessly by everything so it doesnt actually even check the shit its supposed to check (hell if I had a Mence or Metagross, even a DDTar I'd gladly slap a Toxic on the Claydol and proceed to beat it down with that). Also Spin is kinda worthless considering how strong skarm is. I dont know where exactly it belongs but not in the B ranks
     
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  16. Hydreigon6497

    Hydreigon6497 Member

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    I disagree with Claydol moving down. It actually has quite a few advantages going for it when compared to the other spinners. I would definitely argue its a better spinner than Cloyster. Sure spinning isn't all that great to begin with, but its still useful on certain teams. Especially if your team doesn't run Mag.
     
  17. M Dragon

    M Dragon Member

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    Hi,
    About Skarmory being in S: Nope, Skarmory is not even close to TTar, GGar, Suicune or Celebi.
    In fact I would say that both Metagross and Salamence are also better mons than Skarm.

    Skarmory is really good at doing its job: setting up spikes, toxicing stuff and phazing (adding spikes damage). Its amazing typing + great physical bulk + decent special bulk means that fitting it into a team is very easy, it is for sure one of the best mons in ADV.
    However:
    • Skarmory is a 0 offensively. It is purely a defensive and support pokemon that will usually rely on Toxic and Spikes as its offensive weapons
    • The existance of Magneton. Magneton will trap and kill Skarm unless the Skarm user can predict it and trap the Magneton with Dugtrio.
    • Spinners such as Forretress (especially with a Purs TTar to trap GGar), Claydol (Refresh or Rest means Skarm's Toxic is useless) or Starmie are really annoying for Skarm since it cant really touch them and will easily spin back,
    • Most mons will have something to hit Skarm hard if they need to: Mence can FBlast it, Metagross with cb boom to get the kill or with hp fire, celebi with hp fire 2hkoes after a cm, GGar is immune to Toxic and will destroy it, TTar has access to both FBlast and Taunt, it cannot really stop Rock Slide spam from heavy hitters such as CB TTar or CB Aero, it cannot stop Heracross without an offensive move and Heracross can destroy it with a +2 FPunch in the turn it tries to BB, it can phaze bulky set uppers but Skarm will not beat them if last mon, etc.

    All the 4 mons of the top 4 (TTar, GGar, Suicune and Celebi) are amazing both offensively and defensively, as well as really easy to fit in any team (offensive or defensive), are very unpredictable and can give a lot of support to the team.

    Of those criterias: Skarm is amazing defensively but nearly useless offensively, it is very easy to fit in defensive and balanced teams but not really in offensive teams because it has a very concrete role, it is predictable because it only has 1 set (although it is an amazing set), and can give a lot of support to the team.

    Because of that reason, Skarm should be ranked A+ instead of S. In fact, I would say that Mence and Metagross are overall better mons: both amazing offensive and defensively, and together with ttar the most dangerous physical based mons in the game.


    About Jirachi: I think it should be low A+ (as it is).


    My rank (S and A+) would be:

    S: Tyranitar > Gengar > Suicune > Celebi
    A+: Salamence, Metagross, Skarmory, Swampert, Jirachi
     
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  18. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Yeah I actually agree with a lot of these points, the lack of offense is why I was on the fence about it previously. It seems like a lot of people were in favor of skarm S rank so I'm gonna leave it there for now for consensus' sake but if more people speak out about moving it back down I would support this. Spikes are incredibly important in the ADV meta and skarm is the best user of them, there is no doubt it's one of the most defining pokes in the meta so I definitely think it's reasonable to have skarm in S but it is easily a step below the other S ranks. Would like to see more discussion.
     
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  19. Deadboots

    Deadboots Resident Lethargarian Host Emeritus

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    I think Skarm being in the S tier is definitely debatable. The argument against is essentially that it isn't as flexible/individually dangerous as the other pokes in the S tier, which are each capable of tearing apart weakened teams with the right set or providing support that can be very difficult to break. I think this point alone justifies its inclusion in the A+ tier. Skarm is a Pokémon that one builds around, and the team archetype is what can be truly scary to an unprepared or crippled team.
     
  20. deluks917

    deluks917 Host Emeritus

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    What support does skarm actually need? Skarm apreicates dugtrio to kill magneton and gengar to spin block. But a huge number of tournament adv teams run skarm without either support pokemon. Skarm is used on all sorts of team. In a late round of the last smogon ADV cup someone took a normal Cm offense team (Suicune /Jirachi /Celebi/ Dugtrio/ Porygon2) and added a Skarm in the the last slot (usually people run raikou or gengar). You can run skarm on stall, balanced offense, cm spam, boomGar + starmie/jolteon teams, and physical offense. I suppose Skarm isn't the best partner with other spikers or with Heracross.

    Spikes are central to ADV and Skarm is the best spiker. Spikes allow physical attackers to break through bulky waters. With spikes up it becomes possible to pressure a blissey with roar or double switches. In addition to spies Skarm provides a ton of utility with toxic and whirlwind. Many pokemon are crippled by toxic and skarm can do a huge amount of damage vs an unprepared team with whirlwind spam.

    "Spinners such as Forretress (especially with a Purs TTar to trap GGar), Claydol (Refresh or Rest means Skarm's Toxic is useless) or Starmie are really annoying for Skarm since it cant really touch them and will easily spin back"

    Unless they pair starmie/claydol with a magneton Skarm can reliably keep up a layer of spikes (or more). Refresh claydol is basically never used. Skarm needs gengar to keep up spikes vs forretress. Pursuit Tyranitar cannot reliably remove Hypnosis gengar. And even if Tyranitar eventually removes Gengar spikes may have been up for awhile and done some damage.
     

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