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ADV OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by hclat, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    There's also aerodactyl which is obviously quite good, although i guess it's a different sort of bander than the other ones. It also doesn't really suffer any of the regular consequences of being banded as far as residual damage goes.
     
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  2. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    Didn't think I needed to list ALL viable Banders -__-

    And by all I mean, like, the half dozen of them...
     
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  3. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    And yes, as Dan and UD pointed out, Tar, Meta and Aero have the CRUCIAL advantage of being able to hold CB and not get worn down by Sand.
     
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  4. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    This is the world of competitive gaming, leave no detail unsaid :p
     
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  5. M Dragon

    M Dragon Member

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    Some comments about the list:
    Blaziken should be MUCH higher, at least B- or C+
    Rhydon and Machamp should be higher, they are 2 dangerous underrated threats in the current meta, they shouldnt be C- lol
    Jynx should be higher. It is much better than mons like Lanturn. Maybe C rank, or C+.
    Alakazam is a very underrated fast and powerful sweeper. It should be C+ at least.
    Donphan could be C+
    Cacturn should be C
    Hitmontop should be C-
    Where is Ninjask???? it should probably be C. It requires a lot of support, but it is something you must be prepared for.
    Kingdra should be higher
    Heracross and Flygon are better than Jolteon (both stay in A-)
    Salamence and Metagross should probably be above Swampert, although Swampert impact is huge.
    Suicune should share Gengar and Celebi rank. There shouldnt be any S- mons.


    Also about some things commented here.
    The viability rankings are not 100% objective (everybody has its own opinion and will either overrate or underrate some threats based on their experience), and depend on 2 things: how much value every pokemon can offer to the team, and how consistently that pokemon can do its job.
    For example: Tyranitar gives a lot of value to a team because it adds indirect damage that negates Leftovers, it can trap and kill ghosts so they cannot block spin, it can hit very hard and 2HKO nearly anything in the game with a choice band set, it can sweep teams in the late game with a Dragon Dance, it can lure bulky grounds with Toxic or HP Grass so other threats such as Aerodactyl or DDMence can have a much easier time, it can also destroy defensive teams with its Sub + FPunch set... nothing in OU can give more value to a team than TTar, and it can do it consistently.
    C rank does not mean that the pokemon is bad. It means that the pokemon either needs more support to do its job well, or because they are not consistent (example: Ninjask. You can either win very easily with a Ninjask team or fail and lose horribly), or because there are other pokemons that can do a similar job that also offer a better value overall or they do that job better (for example, P2 vs Gardevoir as Dug removers. P2 is bulkier, has Recover and can also wall some dangerous threats such as Flygon, Aero, DDMence, Gyara, etc. That does not mean that Gardevoir is bad, it has some interesting sets that can work well. such as CM + Icy Wind to trap kill Dug, or double status to annoy sweepers, but overall P2 gives more value to a team than Gard, even if P2 also has some big flaws).

    About Machamp: it is definitely a very underrated pokemon that can do a good job vs some defensive teams, but it struggles in a world of Salamence, Celebi, Zapdos, Jirachi, etc so it is not a very consistent threat in this current metagame. The defensive set doesnt hit hard enough, the bulk up set can kill some defensive teams but it struggles vs most offensive teams, and having no rest means that TTar will easily weaken it slowly
     
  6. PhilosopherKing

    PhilosopherKing Member

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    Upon further review of the tier list, I noticed that Tauros is missing. Granted, it does not enjoy much usage in competitive play, but I believe there are several reasons why it should be added in the C+ section. It is able to function as an alternative to Aerodactyl as a late game sweeper in being able to outspeed +1 Tyranitar with maximum speed investment and event most Gengar if a Timid nature is selected. However, unlike Aerodactyl, it possesses the awesome ability Intimidate, allowing it to better take physical hits on switch-ins.

    Sadly, Tauros is plagued by too many problems for it to move into any of the B Tiers. Tauros is completely stopped by Skarmory, forcing teams that wish to use Tauros to run Magneton, which essentially allows your opponent to gain advanced knowledge of your team's makeup at the start of the match. Dugtrio is also a problem along with spikes. Tauros also lacks any diversity when it comes to its movepool, and its normal typing provides almost no resistances on switch-ins. Essentially, Tauros is an inferior Aerodactyl that only possesses the benefit of Intimidate. However, it can wreck teams that are unprepared for it.
     
  7. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    Agree. Tauros isn't an especially great Pokemon but it is definitely good enough to be somewhere on the list.
     
  8. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    Tauros also fits really well on CB/Intimidate teams. That was actually a pretty popular team archetype on NetBattle. Not saying it's still good these days, but something like Mag / Tauros / Mence / Gyara / Meta / Snorlax probably wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. You could make one of Mence or Gyara DD and then let the other hold CB. CB Lax wouldn't be amazing but would fit with the team at least. Actually if you did CB Lax and CB Meta, you could maybe afford to drop Mag since both Banded Explosions OHKO Skarmory. Would be risky though.
     
  9. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Alright I'm going to state my opinions on some of the recent comments, I'd like to get an idea of the consensus before I make changes.

    Blaziken I definitely think deserves to be higher. B- is a pretty big stretch for me though. Personally I see it as low C+. It's incredibly dangerous for slower teams but its speed holds it back a lot.

    I agree on rhydon as well. I personally see it as a C mon. It needs some specific support to work well but it's incredibly dangerous and quite hard for standard teams to counter if used correctly.

    I'm not entirely certain about machamp it's definitely dangerous but the fact that hariyama usually straight up outclasses it holds it back to me.

    I'm very ok with zam and jynx moving to C+. Zam especially, it's ridiculously dangerous.

    Donphan is a pokemon i've always been unimpressed with but it is a definitely a solid rock resist which is incredibly important. I'm not against moving it to C+.

    Like I said earlier I was probably overrating cacturne. This is definitely one of the things i'd like to hear more opinions on though, it's hard to build around but it just flat out wins lost games all the time.

    I've heard enough of the arguments concerning hitmontop to be in agreement with moving it down.

    Ninjask is definitely worth putting on the list. I see it as C- personally. It has a niche but there are a lot of things that shut it down.

    I'd like to hear more opinions on kingdra, I think it's really solid and can see moving it to B. Very scary in the late game.

    I can get behind putting heracross above jolteon but I believe flygon>jolteon is a bit of a stretch. Jolteon provides a lot of utility for offensive teams and while flygon is strong, its just average offensive stats give it a number of flaws that imo put it behind jolt.

    I've already expressed that I believe salamence edges out swampert, but it seems like most people put pert at #1 so it will probably end up staying that way for the time being.

    I can get behind removing the S- rank. Suicune is always a threat even if it can be a bit more difficult to build around in comparison to the other S ranks.

    I agree tauros belongs on this list. I personally see it as C rank but if enough people advocate for C+ I am not against this.
     
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  10. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    I've been waiting all day to get in on this. I've been trapped at work with lots and lots to say but it's not practical to type it all out on my phone while I'm working.

    Alright, here goes, addressing each point Dan made one at a time...

    There is absolutely no way Blaziken belongs anywhere in B. It's dangerous, yes. It's also vulnerable to four of the most common attacks in the game, doesn't take neutral hits well due to crappy defenses, slow, hard to place on a team effectively/build around and it's revenge killed by Dugtrio. Blaziken does not belong higher than C+ on its best day and honestly I think C is more suitable for it. I won't argue C+ vs C, but I'll definitely argue about it being anywhere in the B tier.

    Rhydon is a decent, underrated Pokemon and belongs somewhere in C. Regular C would be my personal spot for it and if you wanted to put it in C+, fine.

    I've stated before, and will repeat here, that I think Machamp just blows. Hates residual damage, super slow, no reliable recovery, easy to wear down, few opportunities to attack and make an impact, difficult to switch in. In a meta with Spikes, Sand, Toxic, WoW (yes, I know it has Guts) and heavy offense teams everywhere it just doesn't have a place. For me Machamp is a C- Poke and it's only there because it's too powerful to be in "D+", but it has absolutely no place in OU.

    Agree with Dragon completely on Jynx and Zam. Easily both C+ and likely the two best mons in that class. Zam could possibly be B-.

    Donphan is another poke that I think generally just sucks. You won't see me using it basically ever, and I feel the current metagame is not a friendly place for it, but nonetheless, despite all this, I think the Rock resist, reasonably decent stats and access to Rapid Spin (though Donphan has loads of trouble against Gengar in almost all circumstances) merit a spot in C+.

    You know I will defend Cacturne with every fiber in my body until my last breath. A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y at least C+. Notice the trend here, and it's not a coincidence- Those who have actually played with it a significant amount of times and have teams built around it, such as myself, UD, Drake Seawood, etc. all say it's insane and absolutely swear by it whereas those arguing AGAINST it generally have not had experience with it and hence are skeptical. I could literally link you to 15+ games, some of which are played by me, some by my friends, in which a player was significantly behind and ended up winning the game virtually solely on the back of Cacturne. It just flat out wins hopeless games from nowhere in a way matched by OR POSSIBLY EXCEEDING only Aerodactyl and his Rock Slide BS. I'd be quite upset, and VEHEMENTLY disagree, if Cacturne got moved below C+ ever. It's really, really good.

    Wanna know how I feel about Hitmontop? Of every single Poke I'm discussing in this post, this or Machamp is the worst one of all. Terrible mon, C- on its best day, no place in OU.

    Ninjask is a hard Pokemon to place as it's completely combo based. On its own, assuming it's either not using Baton Pass at all (COMPLETELY unviable/NEVER use it this way) or it's the only Pokemon on the team with Baton Pass it's a dreadful Poke that shouldn't even be on the list. If it's part of a Baton Pass chain, which is basically the only time it's played, it ranges from an S poke that is utterly stupid and broken to a C- poke that belongs on the list somewhere but not much beyond that. Full Baton Pass is retarded and it's banned for a reason. 3 Pass is strong, absolutely, and can just flat out win games against unprepared opponents, but in the tournament meta against truly competent competition this kind of strategy is very hard to pull off and you're better off using, say, CM Celebi for your Baton Passing needs. Overall, I agree with Dan's placement of C- in that it deserves to be on the list somewhere, even if it's just an "honorable mention", but it's really, really low.

    Kingdra does not belong in B. Give me a break. It's hard walled by all 3 major special walls for starters and has absolutely no way around that (Toxic, for example, does not let it beat Bliss, Lax or Regice) and it's also walled by Cune and CM Celebi. It hates status effects, is super predictable with its shallow movepool, is disruptable by TTar and relies on the less than reliable Hydro Pump (which also has low PP and can be stalled out/Pressured) to do the damage it needs to do. It's a Pokemon, and it has a place (albeit a small one) in OU but Kingdra for me is C+ or B-. Moving it to B is overrating it quite a bit.

    Eh... I don't think Flygon over Jolteon is too wild. It's really hard to compare those two Pokes as they fill COMPLETELY different roles and function VERY differently. Certain metagames are more friendly to Jolteon and others are more friendly to Flygon. The same can be said of matchups. I think those two Pokes belong in the exact same place, wherever that place may be, and they are of equal viability. If I were FORCED to pick I may even argue that Flygon is BETTER than Jolteon, but as I said I view those Pokes as about as close to equally viable as you could possibly get in ADV OU. As far as the Heracross component of the argument... For me, Heracross definitely belongs below both of them.

    Mence is awesome. Pert is awesome er. :)

    Cune is likely the same level of viability as Celebi and Gar, even if it's maybe ever so slightly below them if we had to put Pokes in a numbered order. I think we're virtually all in agreement that the top 4 Pokes in the gen are, in order, Tyranitar, some combo of Celebi and Gengar 2nd and 3rd, then Cune 4th. Regardless of what you have next (Blissey and Swampert are the only two viable candidates in my mind but that's an argument for another day) I think we can almost all agree that those are the top 4 and then there is a distinctive drop off to whatever is next.

    Tauros on the list. C, not C+. You're putting Tauros in the same league as Jynx and Alakazam? It's not... Then again, Zam may be too good for that tier as stated above. I can see it in B-. Tauros, however, belongs in C.
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I'm kinda moderately skeptical of cacturne, it's never actually bailed me out although I've used it a fair bit. Not arguing with any placements of it though and I don't really think I'm that good at this meta anyway.
     
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  12. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    Also, side note-

    Gardevoir should be somewhere. C or C-, but somewhere. Trace is quite powerful...
     
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  13. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    "(Insert person) has used (insert Pokemon) before, therefore (insert Pokemon) is good."
     
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  14. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    A WILD NINJAX APPEARED!

    Okay time for some honest thoughts:
    Blaziken is barely middle of C, its frail, has 4mss, its not slow but it gets outpaced by a hell of a lot, gets picked off by Dug, and ultimately Heracross (not to mention Medicham) do the whole 'busting open slower teams' thing a lot better. C+ could work for it but honestly I think its fine where it is.

    Rhydon is k, STAB on EdgeQuake is nice and allows you to put the hurt on Bulky Waters a lot harder than say TTar or even Flygon, not to mention it acts as a decent emergency check to Rock types. C or C+ seems fair.

    Machamp - Blaziken, except slower, more residual prone, and can't even go mixed. Should be unranked imo, but I'll take anything below low C as fair.

    Alakazam is a threat and is definitely up there with Camel as the cream of C+. Being a Gengar check (not to mention status deterrer and it checks Offensive Star in a pinch) is huge while it threatens a lot of standard builds really hard (assuming you have P2 in the back ofc). Jynx is also neato, I think Triangles (CaptainManMode) showcased her a while back in SPL, and made the (true!) point that vs unprepared builds (ie everything) it can grab like two or three kills and a sleep easy. C+ for both.

    I haven't seen Donphan used but it looks cool on Paper, its not only bulkier than Pert but it has a stronger EQ (like Rhydon this can be huge for chipping bulky waters). Higher attack also allows you to at least ward off Gengar with HP Ghost, and it Spins too! Not super duper amazing but it definitely merits a C, needs more informed (ie people who've used it) opinions.

    Cacturne is also definitely C+, Sand Veil was banned in DPP for a reason and all Cacturne's other toys allow it to put on the hurt if it's played correctly. 10/10, it's not like BL though because in 2U there's no TTar (no SV abuse), and things that punish it like Molt and Registeel are popular.

    Hitmontop is also k, its not as amazing as I initially thought but it has a cool (and perfectly valid) defensive niche and Intimidate means it can do some cool things. C seems fair.

    Ninjask is garbage used by players who have no skill. C- as in 'courtesy mention'.

    Kingdra doesn't quite fit the bill for full B (prone to being walled while doing little defensively outside of checking offensive star), but it is pretty cool. Needs more opinions.

    I think Jolteon is just slightly better than Flygon overall, despite my love for both of them. A lot of things have been said, but for me it basically comes down to the fact that Flygon can sometimes give free turns to Skarmory or Gengar which sucks. Both are definitely better than Heracross though.

    Meta is better than Mence which is better than Pert. I don't quite get why people are undervaluing Meta so so much (Rachi too, I'd even say that Rachi's better than Pert). Both Metals are good at doing whatever you need them to defensively (not just being rock resists) while simultaneously scaring the living hell out of whatever's facing them, and both should be higher in A+ (which to me is Meta-Mence-Rachi-Pert).

    Tauros deserves a mention, but it has a bunch of issues - kinda weak even with CB, Skarm bait (as well as Meta / Rachi bait), prediction reliant (moreso than other CBers in that it has to click the right move almost all the time, and lacks the Mence / Meta factor of 'I can be anything') and struggles to find room to make moves vs certain builds. That said it does do cool things (great speed tier even if it forces you to run Jolly), so C seems fair.

    Camel to B- and Mag to A-, will elaborate if it gets any traction.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
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  15. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    [Gen 3] OU replay: Will the Shat vs. Wyzsza Szkola - Pokémon Showdown

    PERFECT example for Cacturne skeptics. It sweeps 4 Pokemon and wins the game all by itself with zero layers of Spikes down. Cacturne is INSANE with Spikes because of how many switches it forces, but it's so stupidly good ANYWAY that it does not even need them, as seen in this game.

    Honestly, the fact that Cacturne is not BL really boggles my mind at this point. POKE. IS. INSANE.
     
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  16. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    If you noticed, a big thing that really makes Cacturne a threat is Sand Veil causing misses, which requires Tyranitar. Without Sand Veil your sweep probably would've ended before it began at that Flamethrower Tyranitar, so the reason why it isn't BL is because you don't have permanent sand outside OU/1U.
     
  17. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    Sure, but isn't the point of this list to determine where things belong as pertains to the STANDARD format, which is ADV OU?
     
  18. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Do you mean Smogon's BL or Pokemon Perfect's 2U?

    If you mean Pokemon Perfect's 2U, it has nothing to do with whether something belongs to OU/1U, either a Pokemon belongs to OU or it doesn't and belongs in lower tiers. Cacturne either needs to rise to B+ or rise to B and then be voted to belong to OU/1U, otherwise it's a Pokemon that has a niche that can be used effectively in OU but belongs to lower tiers.

    If you mean Smogon's BL, no idea. Maybe at the time it was made they didn't think abusing SubSeed with Sand Veil would be an effective strategy?
     
  19. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    I think that the point is, for ADV 1U/OU Viability Rankings, Cacturne deserves a spot somewhere in the middle of the list. It doesn't mean Cacturne is a 1U/OU Poke - he's not. It just means he's viable in the tier because of the presence of permanent sand, something that doesn't exist in the tier he would actually belong to (NU or whatever the PP equivalent is).
     
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  20. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    Exactly!

    And THIS list- the one we're discussing- is about the ADV OU format. No other formats are relevant. If the Smogon OU list is the universally accepted list- which it is- then Cacturne belongs in BL.
     

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