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ADV OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by hclat, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    I've mostly avoided this discussion in recent days because I thoroughly disagree with every fiber of my body with the overwhelming majority of the things you write and it's not worth arguing over the internet about something like this, but I'll simply say two things and then I'll go away again.

    1. Here's a really good summary regarding the existence and validity of tiers, rebuffs to common arguments against this, and an outline of what they do-

    User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki

    Along the same lines, here's more good reading regarding game balance, tiers, playing to win, etc.

    http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

    2. This should go without saying, but ONE GAME as evidence, absolutely no matter what happens in that one game, doesn't "prove" anything. That's ridiculous. It's even more amusing and ridiculous that the game is from literally over two years ago, but even if it were from two minutes ago the overall point is that one game does not prove, or disprove, anything and never will.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
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  2. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    I already know Sirlin.net it's very interesting site even thought it's a bit vague on some stuffs.

    dunno why, you don't agree that's a very good strategy vs dug?
    You can try that strategy vs every Dug team you want and see win rates.

    Examples are just one, i cannot link every battle i did. lol.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpD / 100 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Roar
    - Toxic

    Gengar @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 32 SpA / 136 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Punch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Lanturn @ Leftovers
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 SpA / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf

    Flygon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 188 HP / 184 Atk / 136 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    Porygon2 @ Leftovers
    Ability: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 36 SpA / 4 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
    - Recover
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Dugtrio @ Choice Band
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 8 HP / 208 Atk / 40 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Aerial Ace
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Rock Slide
    Is this more correct (see bold)?
     
  4. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    Yes, fixed.
     
  5. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    kinda salty for no reason xd
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    No he just strongly disagrees with everything you've said, not being salty...
     
  7. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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  8. autumn leaves

    autumn leaves Member

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    p2 is good. I don't use it on stall teams but I know people like danilo have, although they escape me currently (they're not anything too wild). getting rid of dug AND hard countering flygon/gyara + checking mence really well + helping against aero (taking pressure off your water) is really nice. plus it's actually quite a good switch to gengar. it owns blissey/pert too, and the everpresent twave (or thunder!) means half those switchins you mentioned aren't exactly getting off scot free... I do like the idea of gardevoir but please don't dismiss p2, it rules.

    I do think there is something to be said for ninjask but I'm not quite sure what that is yet.
     
  9. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Sharingan

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 331-390 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes - Rest in Pieces Machamp. Earthquake does 62% average. Machamp is not a Tyranitar check precisely because it just MELTS when Tyranitar throws a punch, Wish doesn't even solve the problem because you're still taking net damage.

    So p2 'lures' all of Metagross, Tyranitar, CurseLax, Celebi, Raikou etc? Fine. In the world of pokemon rule number one is that nothing can beat everything (unlike what you say with Machamp which has a few things it sort of switches in on while proceeding to die soon afterwards). P2 has status options and enough damage output that it can pressure those switches, and cover the arrival of your check to them.

    Your points vis a vis Gardevoir (about how it wisps things) are irrelevant considering how you're never going to get the chance to wisp after Metagross throws the round ending Meteor Mash at your face when you try to switch-in (and if it has a Lum Berry, then you took all that effort for nothing). Likewise burned Blissey / Celebi will never attempt to 1v1 Gardevoir, they'll switch out and let something else handle it. Heracross arguably has better synergy with Porygon2 than Gardevoir because P2 keeps Mence / Gyara from abusing Hera too much, while Garde just sits around meekly.

    Porygon2 is the top Dugtrio counter because unlike other things, it does not merely punish Dugtrio's use but gets rid of it outright, freeing up Jirachi, Raikou, DD Tyranitar etc to sweep freely. If you tried to punish it with CBMence or Gengar (or god forbid that Ninjask), then Dugtrio would bounce to the rear and wait until it was needed to stop your sweeper. This is also huge to keep Dug from wrecking havoc on teams which pack two or three mons vulnerable to trapping (which is fair considering how Dug traps about half the tier).

    Tiering is not an arbitrary list by any point, it's a list created by players with months (me) to years (Callous, Cowboy Dan, autumn leaves) of high level experience and their assessment of which mons a) do more and more important jobs and b) do these jobs effectively and consistently, and the reason that there are C-rank mons is because they fail on certain criteria and therefore don't make the cut. That's just how the game works.
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Just an interesting sidenote on Hariyama vs Machamp, the EVs I use on Hariyama usually:
    EVs: 136 Atk / 132 Def / 240 SpD
    Adamant Nature

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 132 Def Hariyama: 343-404 (79.9 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Always survives after sand)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 132 Def Hariyama: 229-270 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    It also always survives +1 DDTar's Rock Slide + EQ after sand [so it needs 2 flinches to beat a healthy one]
    The spdef is just as much as is remaining to take gengar tbolts and stuff after the defense and attack evs are used (the attack evs let it always 2hko +1 curselax with cross chop) but they can be moved if you want more power / bulk / speed

    I'm interested in what your machamp spread(s) do sharingan
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  11. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    Pretty dumb example honestly. Use protect on Jirachi. Predict Fpunch. Every cbander can destroy his counters with the right prediction. Medicham? Slaking? Cb Dragonite? Do you have a safe switch in on them? Fpunch hit hard pretty much everyone.

    yeah, not even A rank pokèmon.

    It seems is pretty much useless arguing again on this matter i think

    After all, the rank system has been made by:

    " players with months (me) to years (Callous, Cowboy Dan, autumn leaves) of high level experience"

    how can be contested by a random known by no one in this community? :O

    are you serious? P2 cannot punish the switch in on the half OU threat list and you are listing me Lum berry metagross to "fuck" Gardevoir? You can use Wisp more than once in a battle lel
     
  12. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    Why the hell you guys have to switch it on a Fpunch Tyranitar i don't understand. Do you switch Gengar on HP Ghost Tauros? Do you switch Skarmory on Focus Punch Slaking? Do you switch Swampert on CB Rhydon Earthquake?

    And i think i was clear when i said:

    "Machamp is a solid check of DDtar"


    Nope, this is a case where you put P2 to KILL DUG and sweep WITH THINGS THAT DUGTRIO KILLS. It's different. It's different to punish a Dug abuser player and make him 100% lose that battle only because he used Dugtrio.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Hey I've heard of you ;) and your opinion counts ofc. You tried to make a couple of points and generally everyone else disagreed so it's not likely that there'll be any change

    The EVs were built around having it check ddtar, but being able to survive a focus punch is certainly nice. But yea I agree that it's a solid check to ddtar. So's yama :) also ninjax when u run a fighting type you're usually still using other rock checks too like a bulky water of some kind such as cune or milo and even sometimes have another rock resist like mag or meta or rachi alongside too
     
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  14. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    of course hary is better on countering things, due to his bulk of HP. totally agree with you on Hary vs Machamp as a better check of some things.
     
  15. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    The problem with machamp as a dd tar answer is that it has no recovery, and is hit by both spikes and sand. This means it's not going to be able to take it on throughout the match the way something like swampert or flygon can, wish support can only go so far. Machamp has a niche in this tier, it can be very hard to switch in to and with the right coverage/prediction can put a lot of teams in a hole, but it has a lot of things that hold it back. The lack of speed combined with the lack of recovery is a huge part of that. It needs quite a bit more support to work which is why it is lower on the list. The A ranks are able to put in consistent work in some form or another from game to game using a combination of their offensive and defensive utility. They often provide just as much if not more support than they require and that's why they are up there. C ranks can be effective, if they weren't they wouldn't be on this list at all, but the amount of utility they provide to a team is just lower than the things above them.

    EDIT: also porygon2 is really great. Boltbeam + status + recover on a pokemon with great bulk and a good special attack stat is just solid no matter which way you spin it. It's able to take on a lot of the slower bulkier things in the tier like swampert just through toxic + recover alone, while still countering a number of offensive threats as previously mentioned. A lot of the things you mention that it draws in really don't get in for free either, ttar REALLY doesn't like either of its status moves and Celebi doesn't exactly shrug off those ice beams. When you throw in trace which allows it to remove dugtrio, and do a number of other cool things like blank flygon eqs/jolteon tbolts, steal natural cure etc you can see why it's a B rank poke. Also there's a pretty big difference between taking advantage of dug and removing it. A lot of teams can get away with just taking advantage of it but there are a number of pokemon like raikou for example that just can't really do anything while dugtrio is around and are just a lot more effective with dugtrio removed. That's when porygon2 has the advantage over the other things you mentioned. Another thing that should be mentioned is that p2's bulk means it has a lot more wiggle room vs dugtrio than gardevoir, seriously garde takes a pretty hefty chunk from EQ.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
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  16. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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    Spikes is a form of support for every sweeper in the game, even ttar needs spikes. even swampert cannot counter ddtar with 3 layer of spikes lol

    Machamp doesn't have to counter things, his role is to destroy his switch in then die. If you want to make him last longer you need to support him.

    Machamp can ruin a mence without sacrifing coverage for doing it, and he has better def then hariyama with the right EV spread, occasionaly he can check ddtar with a wish or a stalker set, but he is an offensive Pokemon.

    Cb Machamp doesn't have any real, strong counter in the whole game if people would use him with a little of brain and support.

    the fact that: 'machamp is bad cause doesn't check ddtar' and it doesn't fill a team it's something not true and IT has nothing to do with champs primary jobs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  17. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    I never said machamp is bad because it doesn't check dd tar, I was just weighing in on the argument about machamp's viability as a dd tar answer. You are right, it is a solid dd tar check, which is one of the reasons it is on this list. It also has powerful offensive capabilities which is again one of the reasons it is on this list, but those things alone aren't enough. You said it yourself, "Machamp doesn't have to counter things, his role is to destroy his switch in then die. If you want to make him last longer you need to support him." The only support it really provides to a team is 'Wall Breaker' and its lack of longevity limits it in this role. In order to be high on this list a pokemon needs to be capable of providing multiple forms of specific support that are beneficial to a number of common team archetypes. Furthermore it needs to be able to do this without requiring too much support that isn't already beneficial to those common archetype's overall strategy. Unfortunately Machamp just doesn't meet these requirements AS WELL as the things above it. This by no means makes it bad. If it is on this list it is a valid pokemon to use in the ADV 1U metagame. There will always be teams and scenarios in which machamp is a solid choice or even the best choice for a specific task which is why you will always be able to come up with replays and examples to back up your claim, but you need to look at the bigger picture and see it in comparison to the things above it and the metagame as a whole.

    Also machamp cannot be ev'd to be more defensive than hariyama. Hariyama with 160 HP / 252 + Defense has the exact same defensive capabilities as 252 HP / 252 + Defense machamp on both the physical and special side with enough EVs to spare to give it more attack than that machamp spread has.
     
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  18. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS YouTube.com/CALLOUSnarrates Host Emeritus

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    Saying Choice Band ANYTHING has no counter is pretty silly... There is no attack CB Machamp has that is not strongly resisted or in many cases (Cross Chop, Earthquake, HP Ghost) outright blanked by very common Pokemon on opposing teams. Additionally, Sand chunks away at him every turn, he hates Spikes, Protect makes him take more Sand damage AND scouts his CB move AND he's revenge killed by Dugtrio if worse comes to worst, but honestly I think he's pretty easy to wear down and neutralize pretty quickly without Duggie. I think Machamp in general is pretty bad and CB sets are even worse. Heracross is a much better CBer if you're dead set on running that item. Really though, with Pert, Gar, Skarm, Tar cores everywhere and with Pert and Skarm basically universally carrying Ptotect, I think Banders in general are not in a good place in the current meta game with very few exceptions (TTar and MAYBE Mence, but mixed Mence is better). That aside, Machamp sucks. =p
     
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  19. Sharingan

    Sharingan Member

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  20. Ugly Duckling

    Ugly Duckling Member

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    I don't have a dog in this fight but I wanted to address your last comment Callous, re: CB users. CB Metagross is still insanely good since you can spam MM and 3HKO even Pokes who resist it, and the only thing you fear from Pokes who can safely switch in are Swampert EQ and Magneton T-bolt/HP Fire. A Hydro Pump from Cune/Milo would hurt like heck too I suppose.
     
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