ADV OU (OverUsed) Viability Rankings

Callous, I probably need to amend my previous statement. What I was trying to get at was that if you have a team with five super Spikes/Skarm weak Pokes, you can add Magneton in the sixth slot and call it a day. However, if you have five super Tyranitar/Celebi weak Pokes, you can't just add Dugtrio and call it a day. I worded it poorly in my original post, but that's what I meant by "Mag takes out two arguably more important Pokes than Dugtrio." In the case of the first team I described, Skarm is the most important Poke for you to deal with, and Magneton fully remedies the issue. So, bad phrasing on my part, but I hope I've clarified things a bit.

For the record, I think Dugtrio is quite a bit better and more useful than Magneton in terms of ranking them.

 

Just calced and CB Tyranitar does 25% average with Earthquake to Max / Max Hitmontop. +1 Blissey 3HKOes with Thunderbolt while being 2HKOed back. Heracross' Focus Punch after Swords Dance is barely a 2HKO (and it shouldn't even be able to Focus Punch assuming you switch in as it SDs). As a side note Adamant Aero HP Flying is a 3HKO as well (feel free to calc this for yourself, just remember Intimidate exists!). It's not a flashy pokemon but it's got a solid niche and can check a number of things that usually require 2 or 3 mons to check, and C seems fair. Edit: Well the tab refreshed when I went back to it so I guess the reason for failure is lost to history , but yeah Hitmontop still does work (also if you don't switch in on Heracross as it SDs then you must really suck at this).

In response to Swampert one would think a top 5 mon should be gamebreaking, especially seeing how teams that crutch on it tend to get overloaded pretty easily. It may be the go to check to physical mons but that doesn't make it the best, and certainly shouldn't make it the best A+ (considering how much better Metagross and Salamence are in practice). Being fodder for Spikers and Gengar is one of the worst things a mon can be in this metagame (offensive waters too - Suicune and Starmie take a free ticket to stomp city off Pert).

I think A+ should be reordered with Meta-Mence-Skarm-Jira-Pert-Lax. Anyone saying Metagross is not a top tier threat is out of his mind, but we all know what it does - utility check to everything in the tier with solid bulk and boom (speaking of which gs made a defensive Psych Up set meant to trash DDTars and CurseLaxes attempting to sweep, which was pretty solid ngl), it can Pursuit Gengar (which everyone loves), and of course open a hole in a team with the right set. Just does work, game in game out (if you struggle with making it work either you're just unlucky with MM accuracy, facing an abnormal amount of Dugtrios (which can be a positive considering how you can pack P2 and DDTar) and/or just not doing it right). Salamence is equally top tier of a threat, it's a little lower cause it has to run from waters which Meta can usually unload on, but yeah, amazing Physical and/or Special Attacker, best (common) Heracross check, generally can do something with Intimidate and it's many options for either breaking or sweeping. Mixed set is a top notch breaker while CB and DD are as good as ever, while Wish makes for a cool tech.

Also:
1 | Tyranitar | 42 | 67.74% | 57.14% |
| 2 | Metagross | 26 | 41.94% | 57.69% |
| 3 | Snorlax | 25 | 40.32% | 40.00% |
| 4 | Swampert | 24 | 38.71% | 45.83% |
| 5 | Gengar | 23 | 37.10% | 52.17% |
| 6 | Celebi | 20 | 32.26% | 50.00% |
| 7 | Salamence | 18 | 29.03% | 55.56% |
| 8 | Skarmory | 16 | 25.81% | 43.75% |
| 9 | Magneton | 14 | 22.58% | 50.00% |
| 10 | Milotic | 14 | 22.58% | 50.00% |

Statistics from the recently completed Smogon World Cup. Note Metagross' high usage and winrate.

 

Agreed on Metagross being a top-3 A rank Poke for the number of amazing things he can do, which you described well. But I'm still on #TeamSwampert for that number 1 spot.

Back to the Hitmontop issue...

I'm gonna trust that you probably were just having some issues with the damage calculator, but those numbers seemed too good to be true.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 163-192 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Also important that if Aero is going to use HP Fly vs. Hitmontop, it probably switched in to him, negating the Intimidate)

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

You're right. He does tank these for days. Impressive. My only issue, however, is the following:

0 Atk Hitmontop Hi Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 329-388 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Hitmontop would need to switch in at full HP on the CB EQ, take another one before he can attack, and then only have a 75% to OHKO on the following turn. It's probably still good enough, but it is a slight mark against him.

+1 252+ Atk Heracross Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 293-345 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

This is the scenario where Heracross already Swords Danced once and Hitmontop switches in on the Focus Punch. Heracross is strong.

I really think you just forgot to include EVs or something when you did some of those calcs. It happens man! I still like the idea of Hitmontop and Intimidate is an awesome ability. Will definitely have to try him out sometime and see how he compares to Hariyama.

 

the point is that while hitmontop doesnt take immediately huge damage from tyranitar, he will do nothing to the opposing team in return because it is pitifully weak with no coverage and will eventually succumb to repeated assaults. he is also going to have a lot of trouble being any good at spinning without help. not that intimidate isnt great and all and it helps you pivot around a lot of shit but he needs a real big supporting cast (I would say wishrachi/blissey are just about required, as well as a skarm killer) to make his good points stand out. brick break/hp ghost/spin/toxic probably isnt the worst thing in the world, if you have a pursuit tar hp flying is fine but using rest just seems like a good way to make a bad poke even worse. maybe counter could be alright too for meta/gon/aero.

dont think cuno is usable without restalk roar and like top, it doesnt do enough damage + gets worn down by everything ridiculously easily in sand (and its synergy with the wishers/clerics is very suspect) so I would personally take it off the list

pert is the go-to physical check because its the best lol. it holds off some of the best pokes in the tier better than anything else while doing at least okay damage to everything. its hardly even skarm fodder in a sense because hydro pump fucking stings it, which is also why gengar doesnt exactly waltz in. like really I use swampert an unhealthy amount (personally I enjoy not getting creamed by ddtar/aero) and its not flawless obviously but my god how anyone can say this poke isnt among the best of the tier really blows my mind. it actually does damage back, which is something that cant be said for steelix (also eq weakness, its tough but not immortal) or claydol or whatever. plus endeavor is great. tldr swampert is amazing, he doesnt win games necessarily but he helps you not lose them and get to the winning situation better than just about anything

moltres is great but it does not get baton pass

Your team was rejected for the following reasons:
- Armaldo's past gen egg moves Knock Off, Rapid Spin do not have a valid father.
this is why I'm not too fond of armaldo. I was excited to try him a few months ago until I found this out. cest la vie

think you guys are a little harsh on regirock, who I think is incredible, but its not that big a deal

toxic protect donphan is pretty great, might even be worth ditching spin (I know a few guys like triangles have)

camerupt is good too

looks like I'm off to make a lanturn team to see how good it is shame it doesnt get heal bell yet

 

I was actually running a set of Ice Beam / HP Electric [for Gyara / Skarm] / Heal Bell / Roar as a Celebi check / Gyarados answer / general all-round supporter. It didn't perform amazingly but even if it's like bottom of C- rank I think it should still be ranked. I think Sapientia was using it recently too? (maybe a different set though)

Let me pass you 5 to get started xD

 

Ignoring the fact that there is no sense in this type of rankings to me, S+ Tyranitar is kinda exaggerated.

Tyranitar is RSE, not as a sweeper, as a centralizing power. And it's not better than Celebi as a Pokémon. Celebi can do everything. Plus, Zapdos maybe deserves A+, and maybe even S as a Pokémon. Even with the nerf of that sleep mechanics that killed adv, you are forced to use a beller btw.
Offensive Zap is still a very strong sweeper, especially with Spikes.

 

Yeah im agreeing with CALLOUS. TTar is by no means as good as GSC snorlax or something but there is definitely a clear distinction between it and the other S ranks which i believe justifies the S+ ranking. It is almost certainly better than Celebi. Celebi is versatile but Tyranitar not only has the most dangerous sweeper set in the game, it also can do a number of other support things for a team. It's one of the only viable pursuit users, and by far the best, it can perform a number of defensive roles with roar sets, and it makes for a great wall breaker with Choice Band and sub punch sets. Furthermore as CALLOUS mentioned sand is a HUGE factor in the metagame. It's incredible support for stall teams, as well as a number of the faster cleaners in the tier. It also does a lot in limiting some very dangerous pokemon like Suicune, Snorlax and Heracross.

As for the other points, I believe Zapdos is fine where it is. The offensive set is very good, but it often can be difficult to build around due to some of its defensive drawbacks. I just see all the A+ pokemon as more versatile and often more crucial to a team's success.

Finally, heal bell definitely isn't mandatory ADV generally plays fast enough that you're better off just dealing with status instead of wasting turns and move slots trying to get rid of them. There are of course exceptions, but a large portion of teams function just fine if not better without heal bell support.

 

I mean the nerf on stalk zap force you to use a beller to use him effectively as before.

to CALLOUS: can you link me some teams and some of these "best players in the world"? want to know some info

If you put a S+ rank on a ttar for the centralizing power of Sandstorm it's ok, but Calm Zapdos, Celebi and such other Pokémon are centralizing too, in building and in game, even if TTar is the most centralizing in game due to his trait. Think about it.

It's a rank to know wich are the most effective Pokémon on the metagame right now, not a rank that shows wich pokémon are definitely better then other as a pokémon right?

 

It's a bit of a combination of both. The idea is to rank each pokemon by the amount of impact they have on the metagame, and how valuable they would be to a prospective team, so in a sense yes it is to show which pokemon are better than others. Of course these rankings are subject to changes in the metagame over time, and to opinions which is the reason for the discussion thread, and constant updates. It is more of a general ranking than a specific one as everyone is obviously going to have slightly different opinions on where each pokemon goes, but through good discussion and compromise the idea is we'll be able to rank them in a way that is generally agreed upon as much as possible.

 

Nice to know, it's a good idea but the problem is that there are really strong antimeta pokémons that can destroy a typical "meta team" that are listed as a B/C Pokémon.

Ex:
Sceptile is a very dangerous pokémon, Kingdra and Ludicolo too. Machamp is a huge wallbreaker especially now with Toxic on Skarm instead of Dpeck.

Charizard special Dclaw set destroy teams in sand, even thought charizard sucks as a poké. Gardevoir is not worse than P2 in some scenarios and can be very dangerous vs some teams with his awesome movepool, differently from P2 that only lures Physical attackers like Metagross and TTar to destroy your team.

To me the game has so many scenarios that you cannot simply say: This mon is better than this one, because there exist Antimeta teams very effectively, that will land to inevitably evolve the meta in the future. I think that rank a poké it's very difficult, especially considering his movepool and typing.

But, this is my opinion, you can think about it or don't care at all. Thinking it's always positive btw.

 

Yeah these are very good points, and you're right it is very difficult to objectively say that one pokemon is better than another. The point of these lists is to give newer players an idea of what they will commonly run in to while playing in the meta and which pokemon will be relatively easy to team build around. It's not an exact science but it's a useful resource and generally factors like how much support a specific pokemon needs, and how effective they can be in a variety of match ups play in to where they will rank on this list. For example with P2 vs gardevoir, porygon2 is also able to play the role of a defensive pivot against a number of offensive pokemon like gyarados, salamence and flygon among others. This means it will find much more use in match ups even where its ability to countertrap dugtrio aren't needed. Gardevoir on the other hand has issues with a number of common pokemon in the meta which prevent it from being as effective game to game. There are times when it can come in handy, and find a place on a team more easily than porygon2, but generally the support p2 provides makes it easier to fit on to a team, and therefore more common.

 

Also I want to say:
Hariyama > Machamp if EV'd properly; Skarm still runs Dpeck pretty often (I have plenty of teams with it) though I'm not sure how typical it is.

What's Zard's Dclaw set? Sounds like Dragonite might do it better; also I disagree with saying Zard sucks as a poke, it's a decent wallbreaker.

There is some interesting comments though in that a lot of Pokémon can function as anti-meta pokes but that depends on what the meta's like... thing is if a Pokémon turns out to be a good anti-meta poke then chances are is it'll move upwards in the ranking over time because it's better than previously thought and hence on more teams and considered more dangerous and so on. Obviously the meta evolves and that's why this isn't a set list but we can always argue over where things should be placed.

 

Hariyama has some interesting differences from Machamp, they are 2 different Pokémons cause Hary is basically a tank wich can even be a lategame interesting sweeper ( something like curselax ) with curse rest/stalk chop / Hp rock/bug set, you just need to build a team over him with pursuiters or Salamence baits.

Machamp is a terrible wallbreaker after only 1 bulky up, especially with the support of a wisher and in this meta where Skarmory doesn't run anymore Evs in Def. ( CChop crit is OHKO)

 

Why am I always late to the good arguments?

ANYWAYS, the purpose of the viability ranking is a mix of things - a resource to help rookies learn what to use, what to watch out for, etc, a graph to show what's working in the metagame (and it does shift pretty frequently based on threat usage and the metagame's movement to counteract it), and of course it's also a lobby for people to discuss their thoughts on the metagame and what they feel works better.

I'm 50-50 on Sharingan's post about 'anti-meta' pokes - while it may be true that there is something that can sweep your team in the right scenario, the viability list comes down to consistency above all (which I think piex, Callous and Dan failed to fully elucidate) - the higher ranked mons are the ones who can do their job the best and/or do it in as many scenarios as possible. The mons you listed (Sceptile, Machamp, Gardevoir), do threaten 'standard teams' with 6-0s, but they are ranked C because they can only do this vs certain types of teams, or in a specific scenario which may not always arise - and in which case said 'threat' becomes dead weight for the team, relatively speaking. Also, there are scenarios where certain things work better - Aside from trapping Dug, P2 consistently checks threatening mons like Salamence, Aerodactyl (assuming he doesn't keep flinching), Gyarados, and Jolteon (trace volt absorb ftw) and staves off a lot of another annoying mons with Toxic and Thunder Wave. It even has Recover so it can keep doing this. Gardevoir basically only traps Dugtrio, and lures Tyranitar a bit, while Calm Mind can be threatening, but its overall lack of bulk and recovery mean it can't threaten things as consistently in the real game.

Machamp may stomp all over Skarmory after a Bulk Up but it gets pressured by faster mons like Jirachi, Aerodactyl and Salamence that hit it super effectively and force it out, while it doesn't like Sand and Spikes, struggles to find consistent set-up considering how everything leaves a mark on him (and weakens him so he can be rked), and most importantly, it does nothing for its team defensively. A lot of the mons higher up on this list tend to not only threaten to sweep but contribute to the team in other ways by supporting sweeps, wallbreaking, and checking mons that might otherwise sweep them. It's much harder to cover the relevant threats (seeing as how no-one wants to get rolled over by DDTar) with a mon like Machamp that's too slow, too chippable and lacks coverage to play a defensive role if needed, and for that reason it's in C rank, which is the 'use with caution' section.

Heal Bell is a less than necessary move, and the fact that ResTalk Zapdos requires either a Blissey or Celebi wingman diminishes his overall impact by forcing the team to pay more for using him. Zapdos is pretty darn threatening but still high A, maybe low A+ at a stretch.

 

P2 has some problems in building and in-game. If you want to build a team you select P2 when you want to kill Dug to sweep with another pokémon that dugtrio fucks, like Heracross or Jinx or Jirachi. So, you have now 4 slot, and you have to deal with all the opportunities that P2 gives to your enemy to kill your team, baiting Metagross+ Tyranitar + Curselax + Forretress (Spikes problem), Heracross, Calmbi.

You can partially fix 1 of these problems, you can give a status ( only twave) to fuck up metagross ( not really much btw) and TTar or you just give him HP fire to fuck Forretress.

So, probably the best choice is to put Magneton and give p2 a status move. ok, you are building a team that wants to win with an offensive strategy, so you have 3 slots now and you have a Pokémon that gives chances to your opponent to stop your offensive strategy and ask you to answer with the counter system, slowing your team objective to gain advantage and close the game fast. You have to waste your precious slots to answer his treaths while you could instead sharp your offensive strategy in order to win more frequently. You HAVE to, because you just give to him free switch in, selecting P2 in the building phase. So, this is not generaly true that P2 gives you better building option than Gardevoir, don't you agree?

You lose your advantage trying to adapt your team to balance the weaknesses a Pokémon like P2 may give to you, in building and in battling. This doesn't not mean that P2 is better than Gardevoir, you can build a very effective offensive team without respecting the "standard" viability ranking that a "meta" team require, just simply not be focused of the Rank and the effectiveness of a Pokémon in the rank. You know, some teams are large better with Gardevoir instead of P2, because Gardevoir gives different option to you and less offensive options to your enemy.

As i said: P2 baits: Metagross + Tyranitar + Heracross / every fight + Forretress + Celebi + Curselax.

All this Poké can be burned by Garde, and wisp is not easy countered in Adv because of his inclination of Physical sweeping, plus, Houndoom is not OU. Garde has an awesome movepool that allow him to learn Taunt to be the painfull shit he is. Wisp + Taunt counters curselax, ( you don't have to switch it in ofc, you just need to block his setup, if he switch on you, and his rest after burn), wisp + taunt beats Celebi + Blissey without stoss in 1 v 1 killing their chances to recover and killed by burn damage, it depends from what is your objective and what requires your team. You can block Jirachi Calm Mind if you wisp him on switch in.

Then, you can select Destiny bond to time correctly Pursuitar, or you can give him wish if you want to be a thorn in the ass of stalls by pressuring clerics and not let them heal their Pokèmons, beating every sets in the 1 v1 1.
You can give him Cmind if you want to occasionally sweep with, you can give him Hypnosis. He has STAB to OHKO Gengar and hurt heracross and so on. The only real problem of Gardevoir is Pursuitar, you just have to consider a back up strategy to deal with him.

When you have a strong movepool option on a Pokémon, you can stop to give your precious slot for others pokés to do similar jobs to fix the weaknesses of your team, because every adv team has hard weaknesses, it's the destiny of a cursed gen without Base powers where the moveset options are a lot and the revengkilling is weak.

Then if you want to hard punish dugtrio there are so much better things than P2: Drumzard, Ninjask, CB Mence, Gengar, ecc.

So, in the end you have to counter on paper things. you can select P2 and have the rest of the problem i listed in your team, or you can probably try a C rank Pokémon, with Salamence / Gyara counter and see how the team works.

Machamp is a solid check of DDtar but if you fear him so much you can use a more defensively spread on Machamp. if you have a support of a Wisher, like Jirachi that baits ttar, there is no way that Tyranitar can beat Machamp. Every time you see the big almighty S+ Ttar you know u have free chances to CCHOP people, without being punished. You have the power of OHKO and the power of sustain. Yes, against TTar. The one that requires Swampert in every team. The one that created the hp grass sweeper spam teams to kill swamp fast for DDance sweeping. If you select a Fight type vs this kind of strategy make sure to put a solid counter of that HP fly spam, and suddenly you have a team that beats easily a "meta" Rank S team.

Plus if you want to bait Salamence and hardly punish him you can select Hariyama and give him Bulk up + Counter.

 

Who says you're using P2 on a super offensive team? That's where p2 is worst. Mag is not an auto-add? It's viable but you can run HP Fire or just accept that p2 lets in forre and make the team less spikes weak overall [either lots of flyers/levitaters/rly bulky recoverers (like celebi / starmie / blissey / milotic / etc.), or just make the rest of the team really offensive] and give it more room to play around when there's spikes or you can run a spinner [you can even run hp fire claydol if you're scared about forretress]. P2 has its own weaknesses but so does garde [which suits more offensive teams better; P2 covers a lot more threats so it suits more balanced and defensive teams better generally]. P2 has fewer movepool options than garde but it does its jobs reliably and fills a lot of defensive niches as well as providing an important utility option. You can try and make the arguement that gardevoir is better than P2 which is fine to have (I disagree with it a lot but p2 suits my building style a lot more).

Drumzard has huge issues with Aero (very common, seen commonly with duggy), Ninjask has huge issues with Skarmory (requires Magneton / BoomLax support) and any other phazer gives it a lot of problems too (e.g. Steelix, Swampert, Suicune, Venusaur, Hariyama, Raikou, all come to mind and they're probably not the obvious ones), CB Mence is pretty easy to answer (Milo is EVERYWHERE rn, Skarm is super duper common too, and a ton of other checks are common too), and Gengar can barely touch Blissey... All of these can act as punishes to duggy, depending on the support, but they're not nessecarily the best respones or the only responses (like you forgot Skarm for example)... and some teams use multiple duggy baits so as to let one die to duggy and revenge with P2 for the rest of the team to function. You're being ridiculous if you're just trying to say P2 is terrible for no reason. I have a couple of teams with P2 and I think it's a good mon that deserves a high rank that can be pretty easily and reliably splashed when a team needs that support, it's the first choice for most players to do to help a team with duggy. Other punishes should also come to mind ofc but p2 is the most obvious and it's earnt that bc it does a good job.

Hariyama is better :q and yea to build with it, you use it as a major DDTar answer with some other weak checks alongside. I understand with Yama that it can be EV'd to do the same things although maybe Champ can get a KO or two yama can't. But yama can run a lot of sets: the lead set that UD likes [cross chop / knock off / counter / ww iirc?], the resttalk set [cross chop / knock off or hidden power / resttalk], or if you like it a bulk up set. I even ran a unique set that fit really well for my specific team [cross chop / knock off / protect / whirlwind] and it's an interesting mon. And of course these sorts of teams are better vs certain teams [like ddtar aero teams I guess] but at a cost you probably have worse matchups vs other stuff [be it other high ranked stuff, or C rank stuff]. In fact you said yourself

 

show me a good stall with p2 pls

so you dont agree that p2 lures half of the OU treaths to destroy your team? oO
he can counter only mence\ gyara and kill dug, then you have to fix tier list because of it? you dont think he baits, spikes, cb mmash, ddtar, heracross, curselax, every fighting type, some celebi movesets and raikou?

no one said is a bad pokemon, IT has problems that a C ranked pokemon doesn't give to you doing pretty much the same job (kill dug) giving you less treaths to worry about besides gyara / mence and such strong options. If you want to use Heracross you can put Gardevoir instead of p2 for a better synergy. If pursuitar fucks your garde you can setup with Hera, if dug kills your hera u kill dug locked in AA with garde, taking ridicolous damage and saving him for the mid/lategame. You can recover Garde (if you select wish) vs every Celebi even under 50% HP, pretty much commons stuff, or just give him hypnosis or a suicide set to be usefull before dieying.

you can forever think p2 is better than everyone else to punish dug because is listed in the rank, it seems everyone agrees with this incontestable dogma, even "the best players in the world" (?), but in reality there are so much different strategies that punish dug even better, those unlucky shitty pokémanz that doesn't deserve a place in the A rank from the community.

[Gen 3] OU (beta) replay: battlerofthepast vs. thelinearcurve - Pokémon Showdown

watch this team. don't you think Ninjask is a strong dug punisher, even better than dug? Is too situational? You can even boost vs bulky waters with the right Ev spread. You said, Ninjask has problems vs Skarmory. It's true, even P2 has much problems i listed before, you can choose always the A Rank Pokémon or you can choose a C Rank and compare your win rates.

The point is that it's not completely true that an A rank gives you better team building option than a C one, like the previous P2 vs Gardevoir example, and even it's not true that an A rank is better than a C or an S is better than an A rank. This is the problem of rankings, but in a "teach new players" contest i agree with the project and i think it's very usefull.