ADV OU Viability Rankings

[hclat]

Welcome to the ADV OU Viability Ranking Thread! In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier. Furthermore it is used in our formation of the tier below.

If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed by their individual viability.

S Rank

These Pokémon are the most effective Pokémon in the metagame. Their offensive and defensive prowess, as well as versatility, and ability to fulfil a variety of important roles lend themselves to this.

S

Tyranitar - Analysis

Gengar - Analysis

A Rank

These Pokemon perform significant roles in the metagame, and perform them very well, however they are not the most dominating forces.

A+

Skarmory - Analysis

Jirachi

Suicune - Analysis

Swampert - Analysis

Blissey - Analysis

Zapdos - Analysis

Metagross - Analysis

Celebi - Analysis

A

Aerodactyl - Analysis

Dugtrio - Analysis

Salamence - Analysis

Snorlax

Starmie

A-

Jolteon - Analysis

Magneton - Analysis

Milotic - Analysis

Heracross

Claydol

B Rank

These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but perform less important roles or are less consistent than Pokémon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws than Pokémon in above ranks, or face greater competition from similar Pokemon, reducing their usefulness.

B+

Moltres

Flygon - Analysis

Forretress - Analysis

Venusaur

Cloyster

Porygon2 - Analysis

B

Gyarados

Regice

Vaporeon

Raikou

B-

(empty until further revision)


C Rank

These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless viable Pokemon. They are less effective in the metagame than Pokémon in above ranks, but are effective with proper support.

C+

Kingdra

Alakazam

Weezing

Camerupt

Jynx

Houndoom

Ludicolo

Medicham

Steelix

Charizard

Cacturne

Donphan


C

Registeel

Tauros

Dragonite

Marowak

Umbreon - Analysis

Hariyama

Dusclops

Rhydon

Slaking

Regirock

Omastar

C-

Breloom

Hitmontop

Blaziken

Gardevoir

Gligar

Lunatone

Smeargle

Exeggutor

Scizor

Articuno

Armaldo

Machamp

Sceptile

Lanturn

Lapras

Ninjask

Poliwrath

 

[Isa]

snorlax all up in S-?

heracross in A?

forretress at the bottom of B+?

otherwise looks solid. C+ being 66% fire type looks funny as a side note

 

[Cowboy Dan]

The list was put together by the council, it doesn't entirely reflect my opinion so I do agree with you on lax. Heracross I feel is pretty solid A though. It's one of the most dangerous offensive pokes in the tier with very few hard counters, so better than A-, but not quite consistent enough for A+ due to the Dugtrio weakness and spikes + sand vulnerability. Forretress I can see being moved up just because it fills a fairly rare niche, but it needs a lot of support to work, making team building around it pretty limited and doesn't really offer much to a team offensively or defensively other than the hazard utility. That was the logic of putting it that low.

 

[Lutra]

I feel Sceptile and Blaziken should be mentioned in this, as Sceptile with leech/endeavour and Blaziken with its mixed attacking can be hard to handle, especially for new players. Plus, Sceptile was pretty common on NB. It might mean you need to add an extra rank.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Finally got around to making some changes.

S- -> A+ Snorlax doesn't really have the consistency and splashability of some of the other S ranks due to its low speed, susceptibility to residual damage, and its tendency to be difficult to get going offensively against many teams. As a result it's been moved down from the bottom of S- to the top of A+.

-> C- It has been requested that these two should be mentioned due to their ability to threaten certain teams. I've placed them at the bottom of the rankings for now but with more discussion I could see them becoming higher.

Concerning Heracross and Forretress I would like to see some arguments in favor of moving them because currently I'm not convinced that they are misplaced.

 

[prozac]

does camerupt even see ou play?

 

[Cowboy Dan]

It's not incredibly common but it does have a niche, it's a great switch in to electric types thanks to its immunity to thunderbolt and neutrality to both hidden powers they run. Its typing also makes it a decent check to things like Celebi and Jirachi. Furthermore the combination of EQ, a fire move and toxic with the possible threat of explosion is extremely difficult to switch in to. It does have its share of problems, it's not as bulky as one would like for a slow mon and the weaknesses to water and ground really hurt it, but it's a useful addition to teams that need its unique set of traits.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

Hera is fine where it is, it breaks a ton but most teams pack one of Mence / Gar / Dug which usually stop it from sweeping, it needs a fair bit of support to work too. Forre fits there too

Some other stuff:
Zapdos should be the last A+, despite the ResTalk nerf (which doesn't render it entirely useless btw) its offensive set is sill a potent tank that threatens most of the tier and is a good pick for any team with a Cele/Cune weakness they're looking to patch. The combination of status and a powerful TBolt keeps most mons from trying to sert-up on it or anything while at worst it has BP to escape a bad match-up. It has a few flaws (lack of Specs means TBolt doesn't exactly kill everything while it can be overwhelmed by Specal Attackers), but its pretty good nevertheless. Jolt gives it competition but Zapdos' bulk allows it to counter some mons like Cune that Jolt can't really beat (if Offensive Cune CMs as Jolt switches in then it wins 85% of the time - Jolt has like a 30% chance to 2HKO vs Cune's 50% to OHKO)
To balance this out Swampert should drop to A, its a really good tank but its popularity makes it struggle: all the physical offense teams that it's supposed to check are packing HP Grass or Toxic something to get rid of it. Though it does well on more balanced teams (esp with like Skarm / Reflect Cele / etc. to back it up) it tends to get taken out too easily vs offenses.
Flygon should jump above Bliss and Jolt, he's got a ton of options, an amazing speed tier and a really underrated CB set (that checks a decent chunk of the tier while threatening some mons that might check it). The omnipresent threat of Toxic is also nice to take out like Pert or P2 and pave the way for TTar to sweep. Being Skarm/Gar bait sucks but you can usually deal with those.
Maybe put Jirachi over Aerodactyl cause Aero's gotten pretty overprepared for, half the tier checks it anyways while Jirachi is pretty versatile and can threaten any team, it even has Wish to counteract Spikes and be a team player!
Omastar and maybe Venusaur could be moved up to C (as well as maybe Steelix: I hate that thing but it IS an autowin vs offense), they have pretty solid niches that can be abused (Omastar has a superpowered Hydro and its easy to set up RD with, Venu has reliable sleep as well as checking HP Grass Elecs and Cune)
Remove Blaziken, I feel this is kind of overrated by newer players but I don't think this is hard to deal with at all. Its lowish speed tier (80) means that Mence, Gar etc. can force it out easily if they come in for free, speaking of which it doesn't really come in on even bulky mons (especially if sand and Spikes are up). Back in the day it was a little better as people used it over Hera (or the rarer Medicham) to bust through SkarmBliss cores on its own but now no-attacks Skarm is a thing meaning that SD Focus Punch Hera has usurped that niche from it. A couple of Ken's sets are okay (like Salac+Endeavor), but overall it gets stopped by too much (it brutalises a few mons but I don't think I've ever seen a Ken weak team), and needs too much support to justify being above gimmick rank.

 

[The Notorious B.I.G.]

quick thoughts for move ups:

Blissey -> A: is this thing really worse than Starmie? I don't really understand this as Blissey completel defines a playstyle and is so good n general. Minimum bump over Star IMO

Steelix -> C+: this thing defo is better than Weezing lmao

Blaze -> C: over Weezing and Steelix but under Umbreon

Where s Cradily? Why are Marowak and Weezing so high?

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Commenting as myself to get some more discussion going before I make changes. Not sure how I feel about switching pert and zap, offensive zap is great and all but pert is such a great glue mon. It counters so many pokemon, one of which is the most dangerous pokemon in the metagame. Furthermore the rock resistance is so important in team building as Aerodactyl is just so dangerous without one. Honestly if i'm not using jirachi, metagross or claydol, I probably have a swampert on my team. The other thing is I feel like jolteon is giving zap a bit of competition these days. They fit on relatively similar teams and while I wouldn't say jolt is better than zap, its speed and pure electric typing give it the ability to check a number of pokemon that zap just can't. For the same reason I'm a bit hesitant about moving flygon up, flygon is quite good but I think jolteon is really good right now as well. The ability to check stuff like gengar, offensive starmie, zapdos and others is great for offensive teams not to mention it's a great spikes abuser and late game cleaner. The main thing that holds flygon below it is that it's incredibly prediction reliant with the choice band set and a bit underwhelming offensively without a band. I agree with moving jirachi above aero. Rachi is a really interesting pokemon in that it has the ability to counter things like gengar, as well as snorlax, and aerodactyl. It's got utility in the form of wish and has some nice synergy as a wish passer with bulky waters. It's also a surprisingly dangerous sweeper against many teams thanks to calm mind and its various coverage options. That body slam set is also annoying as hell.

Blaziken I think kinda sucks but it's worth putting on the list. It's pretty hard to switch in to for a lot of teams depending on the set which is the main thing it has going for it, but like ninjax pointed out it's really frail and not fast enough a lot of the time. I think it's fine where it is. I actually think weezing is pretty good (for a c level poke), will-o-wisp is such an annoying move and it's got enough defense to put a stop to most physically offensive mons at least temporarily thanks to the threat of burn and Haze. It also has some other interesting movepool options that can give some teams a hard time coming in on it. I guess i can see steelix moving up since it walls a ton of stuff but it just doesn't do anything back and the eq weakness kinda sucks, so would need to see more arguments for this. Cradily probably deserves a mention just for its role as a belly pass recipient, probably would put it C- though as it really only appears on 1 somewhat gimmicky team archetype to my knowledge.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

kk, yeah, I think everything Dan said is fine. I'd still like to see Zap take the last A+ slot, as well as a reshuffling of A- (something like Jolt-Flygon-Bliss-Mag cause Bliss gets hammered a ton in this metagame). Also Steelix really should move up, it doesn't just 'wall stuff but do nothing back', it has Toxic+Protect which messes up a lot of offenses and EQ to hit Meta/Jirachi, and in any case just sitting around vs this stuff can be pretty effective. EQ weak isn't really that bad because its PhysDef is absolutely mammoth even with 0 investment, it also kicks Electrics which is huge considering how effective they are (and how people use them as the Special attacker on the offensive TSS teams/Physical Offenses that Steelix is supposed to wall). See the WCoP semifinals game between M Dragon and Fakes for an example of Steelix done right.
I rag on Weezing a lot but it does mess up Physical offense as well as handle Hera which is rare enough, its got Haze to remove boosts as well as Burn and a good mix of attacks to keep offensive teams at bay. Marowak is meh but Rock resist is handy while it rips everything apart once passed an Agility (or just after everything else's been paraed), both should stay C
Cradily is kinda gimmicky, there's just more things I'd use on BellyPass and SDPassing is better anyways, as is Blaziken. If you want to rank them then you could make a D rank I guess, nothing personal but imo they're just too bad for C.
Bliss has merits but its just kinda bad in this Meta, Physical offense and TSS's screw with it while Special Offenses all have ways through it, while again all it can really do back is.......TWave. It's okay I guess but Flygon and Jolt do so much more and bring a lot more value to the table so I feel they should be higher.

tl:dr
A rank: Lax/Meta/Skarm/Mence/Dug/Pert/Zap (could be revisited, I think that Meta/Mence/Lax/Skarm... would be better)
Jira/Aero/Hera/Star
Jolt/Flygon/Bliss/Mag
Steelix jumps to above Dusclops, Oma and Venu just below it
D rank for Blaziken/Cradily
Marowak stays where it is

 

[Cowboy Dan]

I agree with your A ranks, i think i'll leave the top of A+ as is for now and see if we can get some more discussion of that, but I'll go ahead and change the rest. I guess I can see the reasoning for steelix, thanks to certain metagame trends so i'll move that up as well. I think i'll leave blaziken c- for now but I want discussion on how we can fill out a D tier to add it and Cradily to in the future. To start us off I'm thinking Ninjask could be a good candidate for D. I'm the thinking the description would be something along the lines of "These pokemon see occasional use and can be effective in the right circumstances but are rarely if ever the best choice for a particular team slot."

Changes for now

A -> A+

C- -> C

C- -> C

C- -> C
A- rank: Blissey, Jolteon, Flygon, Magneton -> Jolteon, Flygon, Blissey, Magneton

 

[prozac]

Camerupt is still too high. Venusaur, steelix, houndoom, medicham, wak all see more usage than camerupt, and for good reason. Tbh Camerupt should probably be below ninjask in the future D tier.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

Camerupt is still too high. Venusaur, steelix, houndoom, medicham, wak all see more usage than camerupt, and for good reason. Tbh Camerupt should probably be below ninjask in the future D tier.

Kill me now Lord

Edit: Between SPLs 5 and 6 (arguably the highest level of modern ADV play), Medicham was used thrice, Houndoom and Venusaur twice each, Steelix and Marowak once, Camerupt was used 5 times. What was that 'Camerupt is used much less than 'insert C rank mon here', its not even as good as Ninjask' again?

 

[CALLOUS]

Hello everyone. Dan asked me to take a peek at this and give my two cents so... Here I am!

Honestly, as far as placement, in my opinion things are overwhelming placed correctly and there is very little I could offer up in terms of changes. But, nitpicking, I do have a couple.

-Either Regirock is too high or several things below it are too low. There is no way Regirock is better in ADV OU than Moltres, Dragonite, Umbreon, Weezing, Steelix and Dusclops. Because of how extensive this list is I'm inclined to believe Regirock is simply placed too high as opposed to other things being too low.

-IMO Cloyster probably shouldn't be allowed in BL. Spikes are probably too powerful there and the metagame is probably a lot healthier without a Spiker/Spinner. That said, power level wise I don't think it's too good to be there.

-Heracross is probably one tier too high and Blissey is probably one tier too low. Bliss is versatile, resilient, adds a status absorber to teams, shuts off many very high tier Pokes and can even sweep. Definitely an A tier Poke to me. Heracross flat out dies to Dugtrio and has pretty big issues with Mence and Skarm as well, both of which are extremely popular and viable. It's obviously a very dangerous Pokemon but I think it has enough counters that are very viable in their own right without being used strictly as Heracross counters that it belongs in A-.

-I'd probably swap the places of Celebi and Gengar but that's a super minor nitpick and only my personal opinion. Those two Pokes are basically equal power level so it's really hard to strongly argue one way or another.

-IMO Magneton should be down one tier. Narrow use, largely ineffective against teams where it doesn't trap anything important (trapping a Metagross, for example, is not generally helpful) and only helps specific kinds of teams. Having Magneton on a dedicated stall team or a Calm Mind offense team, for example, wouldn't help much. Super high upside of course but enough drawbacks and counters to be lower I think. It also is entirely walled by at least 2 Pokemon on basically every team.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

It's great to see you here! I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.
I can definitely see regirock dropping a bit, it's decent for exploding on waters but doesn't do much else.

From a 2u perspective I haven't found cloyster to be too overwhelming, in fact the more I've played the tier the less impressed with it i've been. Cloyster is certainly on the borderline between being full fledged 1u and 2u, but ultimately we decided to put it in 2u and it hasn't been too disruptive there so I'm inclined to keep it.

I am definitely in agreement on heracross and blissey. While blissey certainly has some flaws, it's also a one stop shop for countering so many threats so I can see it moving to A. It's mostly certain metagame trends that have been keeping it down, namely the high prevalence of physical offense. Heracross is dangerous as ever, and just about the best thing to bust holes in an opposing team, but as you mentioned quite inconsistent so I'd be open to it moving down.

On the subject of Celebi and Gar im inclined to keep them where they are. Offensive spikes based teams are everywhere and Gengar is an automatic pick for those teams. Furthermore its explosion is an incredible asset for almost any special attacker. Celebi is of course amazing as well but I think recently gengar just slightly edges it out.

Magneton I can see dropping to b+ as you said it only fits in a few archetypes.

I'm going to wait and see if we can get any more comments before I move anything around, but I should make some changes coming soon.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Alright well no one commented but made some changes anyway. Hopefully this will start some discussion.

A -> A-
Heracross is very dangerous but just not very consistent. Lack of speed and vulnerability to residual damage mean it doesn't have a ton of chances to get its offense going, meaning the few things that can kinda sorta put a stop to it are often enough. That being said it is still incredibly strong as a wall breaker, and the salac sets are some of the best for winning seemingly lost games so putting it at the top of A- for now.

A- -> A
Blissey has a number of flaws however it is just about the best blanket answer to special attackers in the tier. There are a number of dangerous offensive pokemon that just get all their forward momentum completely sucked away by it, and teams revolving around these attackers need to have a game plan for it. It's also capable of crippling some of the physical attackers trying to take advantage of it thanks to its status moves and the rarer counter. Even seismic toss can sting a little bit for stuff like tyranitar and metagross on the switch, especially if there's spikes down. It's not for every team but it always puts in work when it's needed. Putting it at the bottom of A rank for now.

C+ -> C
Regirock just isn't quite on the same level as the other stuff in C+ and there are a number of pokemon in C that have a more valid niche than it. Moving it just below Dusclops for now. One step closer to a 100% fire C+.

,

Opting to keep these where they are for now. Cloyster just has a ton of problems with toxic skarm and gengar. It has a niche for sure but I don't think it's quite as solid as the stuff above it. Magneton has pretty limited usage, but it is very good right now. Skarmory is incredibly strong at the moment, and a lot of offensive spikes based teams have a hard time switching in to magneton. The toxic protect set in particular is really solid as it prevents choice banders from revenging it (Besides dugtrio obviously). I'm still open to moving it down but I want to see more discussion.

There are a couple other things I'd like to know other people's opinions on:

Zapdos' thunderbolts are stupid strong and it does a ton of cool stuff but I'm kind of feeling like it's not really A+ right now. It doesn't do as much defensively as I'd like. It kinda sorta answers a lot of things but doesn't really provide a solid counter to many things so I find it a bit hard to build around. There are also a number of things that can prevent it from accomplishing a ton offensively.

I might be pushing it with this one but I think Jolteon is really solid right now. It benefited a lot from the loss of sleep talk zap and kinda fills in a bit of that void. It's great for offensive teams that need a way to handle gengar, offensive starmie and electrics, and it's just such a great spikes abuser. It can also do some other cool things like passing wish. It has nowhere near Zapdos' power but with spikes down it can be pretty potent offensively. I can see it moving up to A but I'm not super confident in that opinion.

I don't think this thing is really worthy of the top of A+. It's good but I feel like Mence, Skarm or Metagross would be better there.

I feel like Jirachi just puts in a ton of work in every game it's in. Its typing is amazing and it's just so versatile. Duggy weakness hurts it but I can see this moving up to A+

I think this thing could be higher within B+. It's a really solid status platform and a great answer to things like mixmence which a lot of teams have trouble with. Bulk + Recover + Pure water typing also just makes it really tough to kill giving it a lot of chances to get off hypnosis and toxic.

I wasn't super impressed with this thing before but I can kinda see it in C+ now. It's great against electrics and Aerodactyl, and solid against stuff like tyranitar, snorlax and metagross. I don't love that it's kind of a free switch for gar and skarm though.

Feel free to discuss your opinions on these, and if you feel anything else deserves to be moved then by all means bring it up so we can discuss it!

 

[CALLOUS]

I agree with the large majority of what was said.

A- is the correct place for Heracross. It's too powerful/threatening to be in the B tier but it has enough weaknesses/risks/drawbacks to not be a pillar in the gen, which basically all the Pokemon in A and above are.

Under that same logic, Blissey definitely belongs in A. She's absolutely a gen 3 staple, always has been and always will be.

Regirock I commented on before and don't have anything new to say. I agree with you moving him down. Personally, I think he should still go down one more. I have a really hard time seeing him as better than Weezing, Dusclops, Steelix, Umbreon, etc. To me he's a notch below that kind of Poke.

Regardless of whether he's allowed in BL or not, Cloyster is definitely a B tier Pokemon as far as OU is concerned. Therefore, regardless of the magical OU vs BL line, I believe he is where he belongs. Forre is largely accepted to be just better almost always.

I still think Magnet is B+ as opposed to A- but I won't repeat the list of reasons from before.


Addressing NEW stuff...

Zapdos to me is an A tier Poke. The Rest/Talk set being significantly weakened, if it's even viable at all anymore, definitely hurt and in my opinion bumped it down a notch. That said, it's still a great Poke and very commonly seen, albeit in different forms than before, in competitive play. I think A is the right spot. On a related side note, I think Dugtrio belongs in A as well. A+ is a stretch for a really hit or miss Pokemon that is mediocre and in some cases really poor in certain matchups. Great Poke, like Zapdos, but not solid/consistent/format shaping enough to belong in A+. A+ and above should be reserved for the premium Pokemon that the format revolves around.

Since I see Zapdos and Dugtrio as A tier Pokes, I couldn't justify moving Jolteon into A. I see it, while definitely the best right now it's ever been, as a notch below those two for sure. I think A- is the correct spot for it at this time. In past iterations of the metagame it probably belonged in B+ but right now I think A- is the correct spot and I cannot imagine it could ever truly be better than that.

Lax is ABSOLUTELY an A+ Poke. I'm not sure of the order within the tier (personally I think Swampert should be atop this tier) but it's definitely placed correctly.

Jirachi for me is the toughest one out of everything discussed. To me it feels too good for A and not good enough for A+, but there is obviously no in between. All things considered- its excellent typing, it's plethora of viable sets (there are AT LEAST 3 completely unique kinds of sets that are viable, nevermind small variations within those sets), its excellent stat distribution, the fact that it will virtually always have an impact on any game, the fact that is checks so many important Pokemon... I'd have to lean toward moving it up to A+.

My Milotic comment basically mirrors my Lax comment. It's definitely in the correct tier at B+ but I'm not sure about the order within the tier. Of note, I DEFINITELY think Forre is too low. I think Forre is the best Poke out of those listed in B+ by a pretty clear margin. Forre might even be A- for me but at very least it's clearly the best, in my eyes, out of the B+s.

I support Steelix to C+. It's a notch above the things listed. On that note, Omastar is too high. Does that exist, AT ALL, in OU? Omastar is C- at best to me and not even high within that tier. I don't see it as OU viable at all, even as a niche Poke.



One final note... Why do I have a Mew avatar? I didn't pick that or put that there =p

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Just to be clear I do definitely believe Lax is A+, just not the very best of A+. Pert mence gross and skarm are all ahead of it imo. Anyway, yeah dugtrio is definitely something i'd be open to dropping from A+, and I agree that the B+ tier needs to be reorganized a bit. Forre and Milo should be at the top in my opinion, not sure exactly how to order the other 3.

 

[Disaster Area]

One final note... Why do I have a Mew avatar? I didn't pick that or put that there =p

Mew is the new default avatar so everyone without an avatar has a Mew.