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RBY 2U-L (Under1U) Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Aug 6, 2015.

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  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Welcome to the RBY 2U - UU Viability Ranking Thread! This is for PP RBY 2U - UU. There is no wrap clause. In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. How This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

    If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

    Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed alphabetically to avoid overcomplication.

    ---

    Important note:

    The decision to decide on what is considered a member of the tier (i.e. banned from all tiers below it) may involve the viability rankings (e.g. everything B and above UU, everything D and below not UU, everything C up for discussion).

    Ubers: Mew, Mewtwo
    OU: Alakazam, Chansey, Cloyster, Dragonite, Exeggutor, Gengar, Golem, Lapras, Jolteon, Jynx, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Zapdos
    BL: Articuno, Moltres
    UU: Everything Else

    Broken Rank


    These are Pokemon that are banned from the tier for being too good in some sense.

    [​IMG] Articuno - Reasoning
    [​IMG] Moltres - Reasoning

    S Rank

    These are the top Pokemon of the tier, that you should put on most serious teams that you create. These Pokemon excel at their roles in the tier to such a point that they are dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Electabuzz
    [​IMG] Hypno
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Raichu

    A Rank

    These Pokemon are exceptional at their roles, performing significant roles in the metagame, however they are not dominating forces.

    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Kadabra
    [​IMG] Persian
    [​IMG] Rhydon
    [​IMG] Tentacruel
    [​IMG] Vaporeon

    B Rank

    These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but may suffer from inconsistency due to luck or matchup much moreso than the Pokemon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws or competition from other similar Pokemon which reduce their usefulness, but they're still considered metagame staples.


    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    [​IMG] Haunter
    [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    [​IMG] Poliwrath
    [​IMG] Raticate
    [​IMG] Victreebel
    [​IMG] Venusaur

    C Rank

    These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless very viable Pokemon. They suffer from larger flaws than the Pokemon in the above rank.


    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG] Exeggcute
    [​IMG] Nidoking
    [​IMG] Omastar
    [​IMG] Tangela


    D Rank

    These Pokemon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.


    [​IMG] Machamp
    [​IMG] Sandslash

    E Rank


    These Pokemon are viable in the tier but require very specific support to make use of. They have flaws too crippling for them to be seen at all often in high level play, but nevertheless are still explorable options.


    Up For Discussion:

    [​IMG] Butterfree
    [​IMG] Ninetales
    [​IMG] Staryu
    [​IMG] Venomoth
    [​IMG] Dragonair
    [​IMG] Flareon
    [​IMG] Golduck
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Graveler
    [​IMG] Kabutops
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Arbok
    [​IMG] Arcanine
    [​IMG] Kingler
    [​IMG] Magmar
    [​IMG] Pinsir
    [​IMG] Poliwhirl
    [​IMG] Rapidash
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
  2. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Ok, we need to start again from here.
    Rhydon failed a bit (B rank maybe), while Dugtrio proved to be good (it's faster than Raichu, to start with) as both a lead and a revenge killer. Specific counters are Tangela and Exeggcute, Vaporeon can do decently too. I don't see it going lower than A, and it could be S too.
    Tentacruel is definitely far from broken, arguably S or A like other mons.
    Vaporeon's bulk makes it worth of A rank, not S as it's not threatening enough.

    S: Hypno
    S or A: Dugtrio, Tentacruel, Kangaskhan, Persian, Electabuzz, Raichu, Kadabra, Dodrio.
    A: Vaporeon
    A or lower: Venusaur, Victreebel
    lower: Omastar, Rhydon, Clefable, Exeggcute, Haunter

    Many others need testing, especially Raticate, Charizard and Amnesia users.
     
  3. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    When will you do more testing?
     
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  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    The tiering process has been put on hold, but testing is still going. I'd happily welcome your partecipation; other testers from staff are Ortheore (who's a bit busy atm), Disaster Area, and hopefully Lutra.
    Enigami, Sunny R, Plancklength and Malley are involved too, and they're writing analyses. You can ask Golden Gyarados too, but I didn't see him playing lower tiers.

    I can't be found on PP server easily: just hit me on Tohjo Falls if you want to test tiers, then we'll head to PP server.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
  5. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Yes, I'll help with testing. Is Tohjo Falls on PS?
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Tohjo Falls is the default channel on PO's main server.
     
  7. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Oh, right. I forgot its name and thought it was called something generic, like, "Pokemon Online" or something.
     
  8. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Kangaskhan is definitely S. Rhydon has some chance at being A (B atm): it's slow and get punished heavily on the special side; on the other hand it walls Dodrio, counters Buzz and has 60% to OHKO para'd Tentacruel (well it uses sub, but the attack stat is that huge).
    Fast threats like Raichu and Electabuzz have an argument for S rank, followed by Dugtrio (2HKO from Kangaskhan's Body Slam sounds bad though), Tentacruel (lacks Body Slam and suffers being outsped and hit by EQ and TBolt; it should run Blizzard>Wrap imo) and Persian (Kangaskhan is arguably better).
    Dodrio looks A (it can switch into Dugtrio's EQ), but has a couple hard counters to face, and being weak to Ice and Electric is bad.
    Kadabra looks A as it lacks staying power (outclassed by Hypno).

    Exeggcute does a decent defensive job (its typing helps a lot); Clefable and Nidoking are outclassed.

    Grass types, Raticate, Haunter, Amnesia users, Omastar and Swords Dancers (Sandslash!) need to go under examination.
     
  9. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Kangaskhan is probably the best sweeper in the metagame. Only Vaporeon and an opposing Kangaskhan can switch in safely, and even then the former risks being paralyzed. Not being walled by Haunter is also nice.

    Hypno is an absolute must on every team. It can reliably paralyze something, has great bulk despite so many Pokemon being hard hitters, has Hypnosis, can Rest, and run Reflect. I would say it might be the best overall Pokemon in the metagame.

    I'm starting to lose faith in Clefable. In a way, it's kind of like Hypno in that it can reliably accomplish something, but being slower than Hypno and Vaporeon have shown to be significant disadvantages, and the lower Attack has been disappointing. I still think it's decent and worthy of rank B, though.

    Dugtrio is really good. He can hit everything for at least decent damage and will crit about 1/4th of the time. However, S rank might be stretching it a bit as he's a glass cannon.

    Nidoking's horrible typing prevents him from reaching his offensive potential. If he were pure ground he'd be a lot better, but the poison typing weighs him down too much. Nonetheless, I'd like to play with Nidoking a bit more to see where he stands.

    I'd say Raichu and Electabuzz are S rank. You need to something to keep the bulky waters at bay, and a reliable Thunder Wave is also nice. I wouldn't put one over the other, though, as both have specific advantages:

    Electabuzz: outspeeds Raichu and Tentacruel, does more damage to Haunter and Victreebel
    Raichu: OHKOs Rhydon on average, 2HKOs Dugtrio
     
  10. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I'd move: Kangaskhan to S (no brainer); Dodrio, Rhydon and Kadabra to A-; Clefable (it ends up doing Kangaskhan's job, and it's worse at doing it) and Nidoking to C (outclassed by Dugtrio, who counters Electabuzz way better; all Nidoking has is a 40% OHKO on Raichu).

    Not sure about many B ranked, like Omastar (didn't test it enough).
    Venusaur and Victreebel (even more) could make it to that A- group.

    Today's report:
    Nidoking is a decent lead (still, Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Nidoking: 221-260 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
    Omastar should be C ranked, as it can't take waters nor electrics and can't switch into Earthquakes like Vaporeon does. Only selling point is that it walls Dodrio, and Rhydon is better.
    Exeggcute is frail when the opponent team doesn't have at very least 2 of Kadabra/Exeggcute/Hypno/Tangela/Victreebel/Venusaur/Dugtrio/Rhydon. Tentacruel should be using Blizzard, and this lowers the number of targets. C rank.
    Clefable is decent, B rank. Moveset can be discussed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  11. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Did some more testing today.

    I convinced marco that Clefable should stay in B. It will reliably accomplish something thanks to its respectable bulk and has a great movepool. It can't kill a Pokemon on its own without luck, but it can at least cripple a major threat. It also does well against some of the best Pokemon in the tier. I should try out some of its other moves to see if something besides an offensive set can be effective.

    Besides switching into Hypno or Kadabra, Exeggcute isn't very good. Hypno, Haunter, and other grass types are better sleepers, and they all have way more bulk (even Haunter to an extent) as well. Well, Explosion is nice, but good luck pulling it off with horrible defenses and absymal speed.

    Nidoking has some untapped potential. As we discovered today, he may be a decent lead and can 3HKO the majority of the metagame. However, the poison typing is a huge disadvantage, as he can't take hits better than he can dish them out. I suggest EQ/Blizz/T-Bolt as immutable, while the 4th move should be Substitute or Thunder. Thunder is sort of like a Hyper Beam specifically for Vaporeon. Not reliable enough for B, in my opinion.

    I don't think Sandslash is very good. Despite his decent HP and great Defense, physical sweepers beat him one-on-one: Kangaskhan 3HKOs with Surf, Persian 3HKOs on average with Slash, etc. I see him as sort of the Lickitung of UU in that he has the potential to be an offensive powerhouse, but will only be able to contribute something if you get lucky. Let's test him a bit more, though.

    In the near future I'm going to test Poliwrath and maybe Machamp.
     
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  12. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    You're kinda underselling Exeggcute, it can switch into Raichu, Electabuzz, Rhydon, Graveler, Haunter, Dugtrio and Sandslash in addition to Hypno and Kadabra from what I've checked so far and threatens to either put them to sleep or paralyze them, and can possibly KO them depending on luck or other factors. [It speed ties Rhydon, outspeeds Graveler, and threatens both with a 2HKO using Mega Drain.] - nevermind, some reason Exeggcute doesn't get Mega Drain. I hadn't checked it before and I'm kinda surprised, it actually looks decent enough to use like Staryu.

    Nidoking isn't that good of a lead. Its beaten by everything but Butterfree, Charizard, Electabuzz, Raichu, and Haunter. Charizard can pivot out with Fire Spin, or if it stays in and burns Nidoking or Rock Slide misses, it wins 1v1 (Rock Slide does not OHKO, so Charizard can risk staying in). If Nido isn't carrying Rock Slide, both Charizard and Butterfree win. Haunter still outspeeds Nidoking and threatens either a 60% chance of sleep or a chance of outright OHKOing with a Crit Psychic. Dugtrio does much better as a lead than Nidoking, as it threatens the same leads and more while outspeeding them, AND isn't wrecked by Psychic attacks or Earthquake. Pretty much the only advantage Nido has is Blizzard to threaten Grass-types that could otherwise safely switch in.

    For Clefable and Sandslash, I haven't really used them in UU yet. Clefable I found to be very mediocre, but that was back when the Legendary Birds were still around so maybe it might make use of its versatility better now. Sandslash I haven't used at all, but I'd imagine would be pretty good when used like Kingler; hold back until paralysis has been spread, get to +2, then sweep. Especially now that it doesn't need to worry about Articuno OHKOing or Moltres burning it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    It can't learn mega drain I heard.
     
  14. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Huh, never knew that. That's really weird.
     
  15. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Yeah, as pointed out, Exeggcute doesn't learn Mega Drain, so it can't kill Sandslash or Rhydon anyway. And I wouldn't say it switches in well, either, as both 3HKO it. The best it can do is come in and paralyze/sleep, but I think Rhydon would be ideal sleep bait as his main job is to wall Dodrio.

    Very little testing on Nidoking as a lead has been performed, but I think you're kind of overrating Charizard. Fire Blast and especially Fire Spin are prone to missing once in a while, and Blizzard is a 3HKO whether Nidoking is burned or not. And Butterfree can't beat Nidoking unless you mean it can put it to sleep, which is ok because Nidoking is not the worst sleep bait (Nidoking isn't that great) and you've already put yourself at a disadvantage by using Butterfree to begin with. I see some appeal in Nidoking because he, in addition to being able to switch into Electric attacks like Rhydon, is faster than Vaporeon and isn't OHKOd by it, so he can at least take off half of its health or so before it dies. I'd say Nidoking is C or D overall, as he's still outclassed by other Pokemon, but has a couple of novelty uses.

    Unlike Kingler, Sandslash is weak to Water and Ice and doesn't outspeed Vaporeon, which make him a lot harder to use effectively, in my opinion. Kingler is also naturally stronger and better at taking physical attacks. More testing needs to be done on both Pokemon, though.
     
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  16. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Still, Exeggcute might be useful as it is the only thing that can potentially check Psychics+Rocks (besides Omastar)+Electrics even if it would be worn down pretty quick. It also gets Psywave which might help it against certain threats (namely the Psychic types, has a chance to 2HKO Kadabra and 3HKO Hypno). I'd imagine it'd hang somewhere around C/D with Staryu.

    I'm not saying Nidoking is bad, just saying its not that great of a lead. I'm also not overrating Charizard, just noting that Lead Nidoking doesn't exactly counter Lead Charizard. Also, a reminder that Zard gets Earthquake:

    Nidoking Blizzard vs. Charizard: 161-190 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.2% chance to 2HKO
    Charizard Earthquake vs. Nidoking: 153-180 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    You're going to want to run Rock Slide if you want to reliably deal with Charizard, 27.2% 2HKO with 10% chance of miss each shot isn't reliable when Zard outspeeds and has a reliable 3HKO. I agree Nido is viable, I just feel that its not the best idea to put it in the lead spot.

    As for Butterfree, it does have use as a sleep powder lead that's not destroyed by Kadabra's/Hypno's Psychic, so it is notable. Not great, but notable.

    Kingler would definitely outclass Sandslash, especially since any unparalyzed water aside from Vaporeon (which still speed-ties it) can wreck it. Staryu might be an important teammate for it, since it can come in on most waters and paralyze them, fish for freezes or wear them down with Thunderbolt, and in turn benefits from Sandslash's Electric immunity.
     
  17. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    More testing was done today.

    Dugtrio will be moved down to rank B. He's too frail and is too dependent on crits to be as useful as other Pokemon. Moreover, the fact that Dodrio is so good makes matters worse for him.

    I used Poliwrath and got good results. His above average physical bulk and Water typing give him quite a few opportunities to come in and put something to sleep safely, and Amnesia gives him a fighting chance against electrics and especially Hypno, who is slower and doesn't have Raibuzz's high crit rate. Another cool thing about Poliwrath is that he learns Earthquake, which I suppose could come in handy if you need to kill Tentacruel quickly or don't have the opportunity to use Amnesia against Raibuzz; however, Amnesia/Surf/Hypnosis/Rest seems to be the ideal set.

    Rhydon should definitely be rank A: he hits like a truck, is the best Dodrio counter, can't be 2HKOd by Hypno barring a special fall, and can also switch into Electabuzz if he has to.
     
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  18. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Charizard and Gyarados to B, Kingler to C?
    Blastoise is questionable, EQ gives it a niche.
     
  19. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Poliwrath learns EQ as well, has similar stats and can at least do other things, so it has an element of versatility if you wanted to play it in that manner. Basically the only significant thing Toise has over Poli is no Psychic weak imo.

    That said, I haven't played in ages lol

    Edit: Had a couple matches with Marco

    Gyarados is a freaking lord, EQ immune is fantastic when there is literally nothing in the meta that tanks Don's EQ comfortably. Definitely B, maybe A? I'd need a few more matches I think

    Kinda unsure on Zard, I'm inclined to say it's fine in C. It's nice as a reliable response to grasses and can do some damage if given the opportunity, but there's just so much around that's hostile to it. Electrics and Waters are everywhere while Don is also an issue to it.

    Rat is cool in B, Blastoise is totally unviable imo. Also used Venusaur, still unsure what its niche is over Bel. I don't remember it outspeeding anything relevant, the bulk makes a bit of difference vs Don I guess, still not good tho. C rank? Maybe?

    Also played with Hypno, Kang, Raichu, Cruel, Kadabra, Persian, Rhydon, Wrath, Bel and Tang. I think all of them are fine where they are, a little unsure of the electrics tho- they're just so frail and readily crippled by status
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
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  20. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Fast mixed sweepers are always viable, I'd say B rank in most cases.
    Gyarados has a free switch on predicted EQ, but Rock Slide is around 60+%; it has close to no chance vs Electrics (I mean, it can't even do some damage).
    Charizard is the best Swords Dancer, and it's fast: SD+Earthquake+ speed tie vs Raichu and Tentacruel means a lot; it's faster than Kangaskhan and Fire Blast 2HKOs it, 56% to KO with a crit.
    I'd say they're both B ranked and Gyarados has chances for A rank.

    Blastoise has EQ over Vaporeon, Poliwrath is a different thing as it's weak to psychic (it's still better overall due to its moveset including Amnesia and many other moves).
    I think it has a chance for C rank, or D at very least- Wrath's good at B.
    If we're putting threatening things into A rank, I'm not sure Vaporeon belongs there.

    Tentacruel's lack of Body Slam is really bad, but we all know it's fast and threatening.
    Tangela's offense is really disappointing. It's definitely not same rank as Charizard.

    Venusaur's bulk keeps it out of Super Fang+HB range and other situational things; at the same time, Stun Spore and Wrap are all Bel has over Venusaur (I think Saur can use Body Slam+Swords Dance without caring about the lack of Stun Spore). Same rank imo, B.

    Electrics are currently S ranked because they are fast and threatening and at the same time, they learn Thunder Wave.
    This is a place where B ranked things can work well, it means at least 20 mons: differences are subtle.
     
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