RBY 2P-L Viability Rankings

Welcome to the RBY BL Viability Ranking Thread! This is for PP RBY BL. There is no wrap clause. In case you're not familiar with the concept, we place Pokémon in certain ranks here, based on their impact on the tier as well as their general viability in the tier. How This is an excellent help while teambuilding and it serves as a general outline of the tier.

If you feel that a Pokémon is misplaced, feel free to make a post about it - that's what this thread is for. As long as you are reasonably sensible and courteous this thread should run smoothly.

Pokémon are sorted into the respective categories based on how well they perform their roles. Within each ranking Pokemon are listed alphabetically to avoid overcomplication.

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Important note:

The decision to decide on what is considered a member of the tier (i.e. banned from all tiers below it) may involve the viability rankings (e.g. everything B and above UU, everything D and below not UU, everything C up for discussion).

Ubers: Mew, Mewtwo
OU: Alakazam, Chansey, Cloyster, Dragonite, Exeggutor, Gengar, Golem, Lapras, Jolteon, Jynx, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Zapdos
UU: Everything Else

Broken Rank


These are Pokemon that are banned from the tier for being too good in some sense.

None currently!

S Rank

These are the top Pokemon of the tier, that you should put on most serious teams that you create. These Pokemon excel at their roles in the tier to such a point that they are dominating forces.

articuno.png
Articuno - Analysis
hypno.png
Hypno
moltres.png
Moltres - Analysis

A Rank

These Pokemon are exceptional at their roles, performing significant roles in the metagame, however they are not dominating forces.

kadabra.png
Kadabra - Analysis
kangaskhan.png
Kangaskhan - Analysis
raichu.png
Raichu
rhydon.png
Rhydon - Analysis
tentacruel.png
Tentacruel
vaporeon.png
Vaporeon - Analysis

B Rank

These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but may suffer from inconsistency due to luck or matchup much moreso than the Pokemon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws or competition from other similar Pokemon which reduce their usefulness, but they're still considered metagame staples.


electabuzz.png
Electabuzz
haunter.png
Haunter - Analysis
omastar.png
Omastar
poliwrath.png
Poliwrath
tangela.png
Tangela - Analysis
victreebel.png
Victreebel

C Rank

These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless very viable Pokemon. They suffer from larger flaws than the Pokemon in the above rank.


butterfree.png
Butterfree - Analysis
charizard.png
Charizard - Analysis
dewgong.png
Dewgong
dugtrio.png
Dugtrio
ninetales.png
Ninetales
persian.png
Persian
raticate.png
Raticate
sandslash.png
Sandslash
staryu.png
Staryu - Analysis
venomoth.png
Venomoth - Analysis

D Rank

These Pokemon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.


blastoise.png
Blastoise
clefable.png
Clefable
dragonair.png
Dragonair
dodrio.png
Dodrio
flareon.png
Flareon
golduck.png
Golduck
gyarados.png
Gyarados
graveler.png
Graveler
kabutops.png
Kabutops
mr-mime.png
Mr. Mime
nidoking.png
Nidoking
venusaur.png
Venusaur

E Rank


These Pokemon are viable in the tier but require very specific support to make use of. They have flaws too crippling for them to be seen at all often in high level play, but nevertheless are still explorable options.


aerodactyl.png
Aerodactyl
arbok.png
Arbok
arcanine.png
Arcanine
kingler.png
Kingler
machamp.png
Machamp
magmar.png
Magmar
pinsir.png
Pinsir
poliwhirl.png
Poliwhirl
primeape.png
Primeape - Analysis
rapidash.png
Rapidash
 
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Going to start off nominating Articuno for S-Rank. Most teams are going to want Articuno and atleast one answer to it. It 2HKOs most anything that doesn't resist it, its bulk is incredible, and can freeze hax its way through any check or counter besides Dewgong.

Next is Staryu. Now at first glance, its pathetic 285 BST might make it seem like a joke in UU. Yet its movepool, typing, and stat spread gives it enough tools to be surprisingly viable. It outspeeds most other Water-types and threatens them with Thunderbolt, and speed-ties Articuno. It can switch into and counter both Articuno as well as the bulky waters that wall Articuno. Thanks to Thunder Wave, almost all pokemon that aren't already status'd have to be careful when switching into it, and those that are immune to Thunder Wave have to beware of 2-1HKOS from Surf or Hydro Pump. Hypno seems to be the only 100% safe switch-in to it, as it doesn't mind Thunder Wave, doesn't fear any attack from Staryu and 2HKOs it with Psychic. It also serves as a check to Moltres, and can even switch into Rhydon in a pinch. It also partners incredibly well with Rhydon, as often the only way for many pokemon to break Staryu is Hyper Beam or Thunderbolt, which combined with Staryu spreading paralysis gives Rhydon an easy time with switch-ins. However, it's susceptible to freeze hax and a critical Blizzard from unparalyzed Articuno can put Staryu in a tight spot. From my initial battles with Disaster Area and Lutra as well as extensive calc's, Staryu looks to fit B-Rank quite well.

Dewgong I believe is going to be C-Rank. Its benefits over Vaporeon is a stronger Blizzards and peace of mind against freeze hax, but is noticeably less bulky than Vaporeon and loses out on walling Fire-types, is 2HKO'd by Raichu compared to 3HKO with Vaporeon, and is also very vulnerable to Rock Slide. I think I'd rather use Vaporeon or Staryu as my water walls over Dewgong, but its freeze immunity keeps it from being completely outclassed.

Primeape I'm going to nominate for D. It outspeeds the Legendary Birds and deals massive damage with Rock Slide, has Karate Chop for 15% more damage over Body Slam and shrugging off burns to some extent (notable since it'll be trying to stay in on Moltres on Charizard), and Submission puts in work against Normals and Rocks. However, its really frail, has trouble switching into anything but Rock Slide, gets wrecked by Psychics, and generally loses 1v1 to most anything that outspeeds it.

Vaporeon I haven't gotten a good feel for yet, but its sheer bulk and ability to hard counter the Legendary Birds and opposing waters (besides Gyarados and Staryu) outside of freeze hax would probably bring it up to atleast A-Rank.
 
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Going to start off nominating Articuno for S-Rank. Most teams are going to want Articuno and atleast one answer to it. It 2HKOs most anything that doesn't resist it, its bulk is incredible, and can freeze hax its way through any check or counter besides Dewgong.

Next is Staryu. Now at first glance, its pathetic 285 BST might make it seem like a joke in UU. Yet its movepool, typing, and stat spread gives it enough tools to be surprisingly viable. It outspeeds most other Water-types and threatens them with Thunderbolt, and speed-ties Articuno. It can switch into and counter both Articuno as well as the bulky waters that wall Articuno. Thanks to Thunder Wave, almost all pokemon that aren't already status'd have to be careful when switching into it, and those that are immune to Thunder Wave have to beware of 2-1HKOS from Surf or Hydro Pump. Hypno seems to be the only 100% safe switch-in to it, as it doesn't mind Thunder Wave, doesn't fear any attack from Staryu and 2HKOs it with Psychic. It also serves as a check to Moltres, and can even switch into Rhydon in a pinch. It also partners incredibly well with Rhydon, as often the only way for many pokemon to break Staryu is Hyper Beam or Thunderbolt, which combined with Staryu spreading paralysis gives Rhydon an easy time with switch-ins. However, it's susceptible to freeze hax and a critical Blizzard from unparalyzed Articuno can put Staryu in a tight spot. From my initial battles with Disaster Area and Lutra as well as extensive calc's, Staryu looks to fit B-Rank quite well.

Dewgong I believe is going to be C-Rank. Its benefits over Vaporeon is a stronger Blizzards and peace of mind against freeze hax, but is noticeably less bulky than Vaporeon and loses out on walling Fire-types, is 2HKO'd by Raichu compared to 3HKO with Vaporeon, and is also very vulnerable to Rock Slide. I think I'd rather use Vaporeon or Staryu as my water walls over Dewgong, but its freeze immunity keeps it from being completely outclassed.

Primeape I'm going to nominate for D. It outspeeds the Legendary Birds and deals massive damage with Rock Slide, has Karate Chop for 15% more damage over Body Slam and shrugging off burns to some extent (notable since it'll be trying to stay in on Moltres on Charizard), and Submission puts in work against Normals and Rocks. However, its really frail, has trouble switching into anything but Rock Slide, gets wrecked by Psychics, and generally loses 1v1 to most anything that outspeeds it.

Vaporeon I haven't gotten a good feel for yet, but its sheer bulk and ability to hard counter the Legendary Birds and opposing waters (besides outside of Gyarados and Staryu) outside of freeze hax would probably bring it up to atleast A-Rank.
karate chop's not the same as violet.

I'll start with Articuno in S as you say. Staryu and Dewgong I'll tentatively add to C, and Vaporeon to B. Its inability to hit opposing waters well is kinda problematic, but its bulk is kinda insane on the other hand.
 
karate chop's not the same as violet.
Never said it was. Karate Chop does do about 14-15% more:
Primeape Body Slam vs. Mew: 64-76 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
Primeape Karate Chop vs. Mew on a critical hit: 74-87 (18.3 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO


Calc'd by giving Primeape Slash and reducing its BP to 50. If it were Violet, it'd be about 70% more on neutral hits:

Primeape Karate Chop (retyped to Fighting) vs. Mew (retyped to neutral vs Fighting) on a critical hit: 110-130 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Body Slam gives paralysis chance and a chance to crit, Karate Chop gives a little more power, hits through Acid Armor/Reflect, and ignores burns.

Edit: Also, placement for my nominations looks fair. Still think Staryu might end up B, but depending on how the UU meta takes shape it might end up C after all.
 
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Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
I don't think Primeape should be ranked, idk about staryu haven't even considered it, everything else looks fine for now.

Moltres to S rank. I'm gonna compare it to Articuno. Its downsides are Ice weakness, and a few more resists. However Ice isn't that prevalent from what little I've seen thus far (and if it is it's from the bulky waters that check it anyway lol) and the extra resists don't matter that much since Rocks are screwed by burns and Fire types are kinda bad. On the plus side, it gets Fire Spin, which is better than literally everything Cuno has besides Blizzard, and it outspeeds Articuno(!). All while packing the same kind of power as the ice bird. So yeah I think Moltres can go to S
 
I'm going to be testing Primeape later, but I'm not sure it shouldn't be ranked. It outspeeds both Legendary Birds before Agility, can survive a hit and take upwards to 70% HP off of the Legendary Birds with Rock Slide, and wrecks Normal types. Considering OU has things like Lickitung or Weezing ranked, I don't see why it can't be given a similarly low rank. But it can wait until I give it a few games.

Having tested Staryu in several games now, and seeing it in use by other players, I think it could move up to B Rank. Comparing to OU's tier list, C-Rank seems to belong to mons that can be good, but have enough problems that can make them subpar choices (Dragonite/Rhydon/Cloyster). Staryu seems more in line with Slowbro and Gengar in terms of effectiveness, walling key threats, spreading paralysis and generally being obnoxious with Recover.

I'm going to second Moltres' nomination to S rank, fire bird is stronk. For other fires, Charizard isn't a bad Fire-type thanks to Earthquake, and it makes for a pretty decent lead too. I've also seen Disaster Area make use of Flareon, so maybe we'll see other Fire types get some usage in UU.
 
Hypno for S, dominant wall, which is very useful most games (just doesn't like FP too much and strong attacks).

Kangaskhan, pretty much the mini-tauros, but a lot of the viable mons are good on the special side, which I think takes it down to A.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Confirming that Staryu isn't entirely terrible- it actually walls MoltCuno effectively although it has a tough time doing much of anything in return, but that's still enough to warrant usage. idk if it's B rank, but I guess it can go there for now (edit: forgot it's already C, it's fine there for now). Also Vappy absolutely does not belong in B imo, easily A, it tanks MoltCuno like a champ

Thoughts on Electrics? atm Electabuzz and Raichu are the only ones I can see being viable. I gotta say tho, I'm favouring Buzz>Rai. In the games I've played I've found Ground types to be relatively rare- most common one I've seen is Dug which demolishes them both regardless. Meanwhile Grass types are useful because Sleep Powder, and they just so happen to wall Raichu, while most of them are also hit super effectively by Buzz's Psychic. I'm feeling A for Buzz, B for Raichu.

I also think A for Vict, maybe B. It carves a niche for itself on the back of dual powder while the biggest downside to Vict (and grass types in general) is that it lets in MoltCuno, which is why they may be better off in B. On second thoughts definitely put it in B. It's kinda outclassed by Hypno, which also does dual status but does so without opening up massive weaknesses.

No idea about Venu while I'm at it, I don't see much reason to ever use Venu over Vict due to dual status and Wrap.

Edit: I have plenty of thoughts about the below list, but I cbf going through it now and also I want more battles
 
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Updated it, leaving some commentary


S Rank

These are the top Pokemon of the tier, that you should put on most serious teams that you create. These Pokemon excel at their roles in the tier to such a point that they are dominating forces.

articuno.png
Articuno - obviously a monster, although it can get worn down. Has a scary status to inflict, but it has exploitable electric/rock weaknesses.
hypno.png
Hypno - Bulky and difficult to switch into, but not mandatory by any means (hell none of the S ranks are mandatory IMO.. though you're bound to have at least one per team). Good lead, great Status Platform, very bulky. Trouble is 4MSS. You want Hypnosis+Twave for status. Psychic+Stoss and maybe Counter for good damage output. And your only recovery option is Rest. Good mon for sure but when asleep it can be played around and when lacking rest can be worn down. Always bound to do SOMETHING though.. unless Haunter or something sleeps it.
moltres.png
Moltres - It's a monster too, but stuff like Ninetales/Flareon/in a pinch Rhydon check it, it also has ice weakness, but it outspeeds Articuno. It inflicts a less deadly status that's easier to absorb though.
rhydon.png
Rhydon - Has flaws and quite a few pokemon that pick on it, but its power is immense, it's not easy to switch into, and it walls a couple of handy things for good measure. Might be tricky to fully make use of sometimes, but it's a good mon.

A Rank

These Pokemon are exceptional at their roles, performing significant roles in the metagame, however they are not dominating forces.

kadabra.png
Kadabra - Ability to soft check most of S rank and A rank, incredible high speed, great typing (though could do with a resist or two) put it in a good spot, but its main flaw of being very physically frail and crippled by paralysis quite easily makes it not a totally superior pokemon.

kangaskhan.png
Kangaskhan - Great physical threat, has access to edgeslide, bslam, hyper beam, surf, and counter, letting it mix up its sets for the team's needs. It ties with Moltres and outspeeds articuno which is quite nice. No real counter, but it is difficult for it to switch in. Has to be played somewhat like OU Tauros, but it has competition from Persian/Raticate (both have troubles with Haunter though).
raichu.png
Raichu - The premier electric, fast, and with usable coverage, it struggles more with grass and dragon types [Vic, Venu, Tang, Dragonair] but can spread status and can change up its moves a little. STAB+Surf is mandatory, but Twave, Stoss, BSlam, HB, and Agility are all potential options on it. Not being a free switch for Rhydon is incredible.
tentacruel.png
Tentacruel - Being able to steal momentum back from articuno, and to a lesser extent Moltres (burn sucks quite a lot for cruel) as well as being a solid threat in its own right with SD+Wrap+HB+Blizzard/Surf/HPump as well as having a great base 100 speed and it merits a spot this high up. Its ground weakness is sadly exploitable for it, and its Psychic weakness, but it's the most offensive fairly cuno answer available bringing it a huge niche.
victreebel.png
Victreebel - walling Raichu (albeit getting para'd in the process), having status options, especially stun spore meaning that once it burns sleep it's not a free switch for cuno/moltres, puts it in A rank here. Great status platform, walls an important mon, and is an okay pivot, albeit liable to being statused. Obviously struggles with Buzz, but you can pair Rhydon or Dugtrio or Sandslash or something like that with it to handle it. Main advantage over Hypno is probably access to wrap and Grass attacks tormenting many Cuno answers more than Psychic attacks do.

B Rank

These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but may suffer from inconsistency due to luck or matchup much moreso than the Pokemon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws or competition from other similar Pokemon which reduce their usefulness, but they're still considered metagame staples.


charizard.png
Charizard - A reasonably effective lead, with Earthquake/Fire Blast/Fire Spin/Slash or Body Slam, plus potentially a Swords Dancer when things are significantly weakened, and having great base 100 speed, altogether puts it as a solid choice of B rank.
dugtrio.png
Dugtrio - Good lead and okay Electric check (but frail), very quick and has all the coverage it needs. Solid mon but its frailty and relatively few opportunities to switch in, as well as average power level altogether makes it a B rank mon.
electabuzz.png
Electabuzz - Main advantage over Raichu is the slightly higher speed and access to Psychic. Whilst it can only chip Rhydon on the switch (not meaningless damage though) it takes out Venu/Vic more easily, and gets past Dragonair easier too (not a terribly important mon but checking electrics helps it).
haunter.png
Haunter - Fastest sleeper, counters Persian and checks Raticate. Reasonably good special and movepool behind it, with Tbolt+Psychic netting it perfect coverage (Night Shade does more to a couple of Pokemon though, as does Mega Drain.. and Explosion but it's still very weak on Haunter) and a good speed tier (outspeeding cuno and moltres at least).
poliwrath.png
Poliwrath - A solid Cuno/Moltres check (pair with an Electric though for fear of sky attack), reasonable sweeper, impressive rock resistance, hypnosis, amnesia, and a fun-looking movepool, it can work fairly consistent even if its speed is underwhelming.
staryu.png
Staryu - Recovering/Paralyzing pivot, does its job pretty well, quite quick too. Suits very offensive teams quite nicely.
tangela.png
Tangela - Best Rhydon answer, okay sleeper (not for the lead slot though), and has Bind and Stun Spore to be a great pivot/status platform. Can't do much damage with Mega Drain being its most serious offensive option.
vaporeon.png
Vaporeon - Takes on Moltres/Cuno like a champ but doesn't do very much back to Cuno at least. Insane bulk and good typing lets it go far, but the lack of all that good of an offensive movepool leaves it only at B in my eyes.
venusaur.png
Venusaur - Like victreebel but outspeeds victreebel at the cost of a couple of important moves. Leech Seed is kinda quirky at least..

C Rank

These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless very viable Pokemon. They suffer from larger flaws than the Pokemon in the above rank.


clefable.png
Clefable - Doesn't do any one thing super well, but it has lots of options. Really mediocre speed.
dewgong.png
Dewgong - Cuno hard counter and Moltres check, but it's very slow paced and has a rock weakness, so not as suitable for teams as one might hope. Lack of a good movepool hurts it the most though.
dodrio.png
Dodrio - Walled by Rhydon but otherwise very threatening.
flareon.png
Flareon - A bit slow but the most specially offensive fire type after Moltres with the highest attack stat of one too. It's a bit slow but with proper support can be effective.
ninetales.png
Ninetales - Like a faster less powerful Flareon. Confuse Ray is neat, outspeeding Moltres is quite neat too. Fire-resistant and reasonably bulky pivot.
persian.png
Persian - Walled by haunter but otherwise a good choice.
raticate.png
Raticate - Better at breaking teams open once some status is spread and struggles with gar, but is okay too.
sandslash.png
Sandslash - Good Rhydon answer, okay Electric answer (only 2x water weak is nice too), mediocre speed still, and has access to swords dance.
venomoth.png
Venomoth - Ground-neutral and physically bulkier than Haunter, as well as has access to Stun Spore. Walls Grasses still. Outside of those significant merits, Haunter is better.

D Rank

These Pokemon are very rare sights in top level matches, and suffer from more crippling flaws. They require a lot of support to be effective, and may have consistency issues.


arcanine.png
Arcanine - a sort of middle ground between Flareon and Ninetales, outspeeds some important stuff, but no confuse ray. Worse special than either.
blastoise.png
Blastoise - Slower than cuno really sucks but earthquake to bop electric switch-ins isn't bad.
dragonair.png
Dragonair - Has agiliwrap, good coverage and support options, and resists electric/water/fire [moltres and raichu] but isn't very bulky/fast/powerful so struggles to be too useful. Really dislikes status unfortunately.
golduck.png
Golduck - Ties with Moltres and Amnesias, with some testing could move up but it seems a little mediocre on paper.
kabutops.png
Kabutops - Dodrio answer, Cuno check, quite quick, 4x Fire resist but hates burns, and can use Swords Dance. Resisting normal but being weak to ground is really a double-edged sword.
kingler.png
Kingler - Like tops, can SD vs Cuno, has Crabhammer too but doesn't wall dodrio.
mr-mime.png
Mr. Mime - Has electric coverage as a merit over hypno/kadabra but it's not usually worth it.
nidoking.png
Nidoking - Good coverage but with Rhydon in and Jolt out, has much less of a niche. Speed tier is okay.
rapidash.png
Rapidash - Great speed tier but otherwise pretty similar to ninetales and co.

E Rank


These Pokemon are viable in the tier but require very specific support to make use of. They have flaws too crippling for them to be seen at all often in high level play, but nevertheless are still explorable options.


aerodactyl.png
Aerodactyl - walled by Rhydon and Haunter but is immensely quick.
arbok.png
Arbok - Wrap+Glare+Edgequake, but lacks any useful resistances outside of grass (and only ties with Venu).
graveler.png
Graveler - much weaker than Rhydon but can explode.
machamp.png
Machamp - has edgequake and base 130 attack, but is slow and has poor typing.
magmar.png
Magmar - Has very little niche over other fire types, but hits poliwhirl hardest of all of them in a single turn.
omastar.png
Omastar - Better moltres answer than kabutops.
pinsir.png
Pinsir - Powerful with SD/HB/Submission/BSlam but stopped cold by haunter, and can't come in and stay in too easily. Average speed tier.
primeape.png
Primeape - Fast rock-slider but doesn't really have niche over dugtrio.
 
That covers everything quite nicely. Just a couple things though, you mean Poliwrath in Magmar's commentary, not Poliwhirl right? 'Cause Poliwhirl is hit just as hard by other fires.

And Primeape does somewhat have a niche, being able to survive a Blizzard from Articuno (lets it 1v1 Articuno, and can atleast really hurt Articuno after it uses agility). It also has a really strong attack against Normal-types, except it mostly only excels in those instances and Normal-types aren't as prominent as I thought they'd be. E Rank is probably the best it can manage.

So, now we just need to figure out where Gyarados, Poliwhirl and maybe Porygon place.
 
Porygon goes to E at most. Imo, it doesn even deserve that. Also Golduck is slower than Moltres.

I could see Poliwhirl in C or lower, because it could function as a mediocre lead, and nothing wants to switch in after it has an amnesia up with its access to hypnosis, but I think it's worse than poliwrath in general, and once something is slept it becomes a worse golduck bar marginally faster speed tier.

The issue with gyara is that all the electrics murder it, and the bird checks also check it to varying extents (although a decent number of them don't like gyarados' access to electric coverage). It also has very questionable defensive synergy in a tier where most teams are going to pack a water and a bird. But it has pretty repectable attacking prowess, and I think it deserves C.

Also, I think graveler probably deserved D, not E, because going boom is a very nice answer to scary things, and it is a capable electric check, but I agree that rhydon existing is very hard for it.

Also I think Butterfree deserves E. It's like a worse venemoth that doesn't have to run away from kadabra leads, and it is at least fast enough to sleep hypno in the event that hypno leads.
 
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Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Things I would change
S Rank

These are the top Pokemon of the tier, that you should put on most serious teams that you create. These Pokemon excel at their roles in the tier to such a point that they are dominating forces.

rhydon.png
Rhydon - Analysis

A Rank

These Pokemon are exceptional at their roles, performing significant roles in the metagame, however they are not dominating forces.


victreebel.png
Victreebel

B Rank

These Pokemon are strong choices in the metagame, but may suffer from inconsistency due to luck or matchup much moreso than the Pokemon in the Rank above. They have larger flaws or competition from other similar Pokemon which reduce their usefulness, but they're still considered metagame staples.


charizard.png
Charizard

electabuzz.png
Electabuzz

tangela.png
Tangela
vaporeon.png
Vaporeon
venusaur.png
Venusaur

C Rank

These Pokemon are more infrequent sights in the metagame, particularly in top level matches, but are nevertheless very viable Pokemon. They suffer from larger flaws than the Pokemon in the above rank.


persian.png
Persian



E Rank


These Pokemon are viable in the tier but require very specific support to make use of. They have flaws too crippling for them to be seen at all often in high level play, but nevertheless are still explorable options.



poliwhirl.png
Poliwhirl

Rhydon- Way too many things threaten it and it'sway too support dependent to be in S imo. I think it's fine in A
Victreebel- Total bird fodder, plus it's a poison type. Sure it's got Stun Spore, but it's not that hard to play around, I think it belongs in B
Vaporeon- This thing is an absolute beast. It walls MoltCuno hard, to the point where it isn't even pressured by them- it doesn't need to do much back to Articuno to beat it. A rank imo
Charizard- It's a cool lead, but that's all it's got up its sleeve, it's total crap otherwise.
Electabuzz- Buzz is great, beats Grasses which is nice, and has a better niche than Raichu as a lead.
Tangela- Literally incapable of threatening anything. C rank imo
Venusaur- Awful pokemon, there is literally no reason to use it over Victreebel, since the speed advantage is so incredibly situational as to be practically irrelevant, while Bel has enormous advantages over Venu. I'd drop it to D rank.
Persian suffers from the same issues as every other normal type, but it's fast enough and strong enough to warrant B imo
Idk about Poliwhirl, haven't tried it but E is a little low? maybe?
 
Things I would change


Rhydon- Way too many things threaten it and it'sway too support dependent to be in S imo. I think it's fine in A
Victreebel- Total bird fodder, plus it's a poison type. Sure it's got Stun Spore, but it's not that hard to play around, I think it belongs in B
Vaporeon- This thing is an absolute beast. It walls MoltCuno hard, to the point where it isn't even pressured by them- it doesn't need to do much back to Articuno to beat it. A rank imo
Charizard- It's a cool lead, but that's all it's got up its sleeve, it's total crap otherwise.
Electabuzz- Buzz is great, beats Grasses which is nice, and has a better niche than Raichu as a lead.
Tangela- Literally incapable of threatening anything. C rank imo
Venusaur- Awful pokemon, there is literally no reason to use it over Victreebel, since the speed advantage is so incredibly situational as to be practically irrelevant, while Bel has enormous advantages over Venu. I'd drop it to D rank.
Persian suffers from the same issues as every other normal type, but it's fast enough and strong enough to warrant B imo
Idk about Poliwhirl, haven't tried it but E is a little low? maybe?
My thoughts:
Rhydon's raw power merits it being in S. It can actually take neutral or weak but super effective attacks fairly well if need be, there's very few good ground resists, and most immunities are messed up by Rock Slide. It requires support but it's definitely more than worthy of it.
Vic- being birdfood isn't too bad when you can para or wrap then on the switch. Walling Raichu is cool too. + SD set for giggles. The ability to really hurt Vap is also nice.
Vap - sure I guess.. liability to be frozen sux tho admittedly.
Zard - guess I can agree
Buzz - where it is is fine for now, its power level's a little lacking means even neutral stuff like Kadabra and Hypno are capable of forcing it out and stealing momentum, as well as having issues with Rhydon (only chipped by Psychic), means overall B rank is fine.
Tangela - status is threatening enough especially when you can bind your way out of shit. Being the tier's best ground resist by a large margin is also a huge niche. Sleep/Stun/MD/Bind is a fantastic and simple supportive set. Works nicely with buzz lead actually. It's obviously a shitty lead itself though.
Venu to D - sure.
Persian - after more testing maybe, I could see it in B though.
Whirl - after testing maybe. Golduck and Poliwrath give it competition and its bulk is ehh without Recover.
 
I've just moved Butterfree up to C, having realised it's the most consistent sleeper versus Hypno as well as Kadabra :]

Basically afaik relevant leads:

Butterfree - Loses to Haunter, Venomoth, Victreebel, Venusaur, Charizard, and Electabuzz, beats Hypno, Kadabra, has dual status.
Charizard - Non-sleeper, beats all sleepers other than Hypno, beats Mr.Mime, may scare out Kadabra for fear of Body Slam, loses to Electabuzz.
Electabuzz - Non-sleeper, beats all other leads bar Hypno, but may let in a Ground-type for free, or Hypno. Has paralysis.
Haunter - Loses to all non-sleeper leads, other than Mr. Mime, beats all sleeper leads, has only sleep.
Hypno - Beats all non-sleeper leads, loses to all sleeper leads, has dual status.
Kadabra - Beats Electabuzz, all sleeper leads other than Butterfree and Hypno, may run from Charizard.
Mr. Mime - Beats all sleeper leads other than Haunter and Hypno, loses to all non-sleepr leads..
Venomoth- Loses to Haunter, all non-sleeper leads, beats all other sleeper leads, has dual status.
Venusaur - Beats Butterfree, Victreebel Hypno. Also walls Raichu. Has Sleep only.
Victreebel - Ties Butterfree, beats Hypno. Also walls Raichu. Has dual status.

Did I miss anything relevant?
 
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I'm feeling Kanga and Kadabra wanting a move up to S rightly or wrongly - Dabra hates status but Kanga acts like a tauros.

Omastar should be at least B [wall cuno moltres and dodrio, albeit weaker to Rhydon, And takes hyper beams/sky attacks. Cost is Rhydon is a poorer partner but it walls moltres the best f anything].

Wrath should be A. Fire+Ice+Rock resistances, even if it has a flying and psychic weakness, lets it check multiple top threats pretty well. Hypnosis+Amnesia is icing on top. Only thing it misses is Thunder Wave.

D rank is pretty big and could do with some more understanding. There's more play and thoughts to be had on this tier yet!
 
I support the omaster rise. It is a fabulous way to deal with articuno (it resists ALL of articuno's movepool), and it hits harder than many of it's water brethren. I would say it is probably the best articuno check after dewgong (and that only because dewgong can't be frozen). Also it outspeeds Rhydon and OHKOes it while taking an earthquake, so it really isn't *that* Rhydon weak. However, considering Moltres can just fire spin it and switch out, I wouldn't call it the best Moltres answer.

I don't support the raichu rise, (grasses in general, other electrics).

Dugtrio is p bad, and needs to move down, imo. It can't take a hit from anything, and it is a weak attacker (It can't OHKO any of the electrics with earthquake, and it can't even OHKO charizard with rock slide).
I would rather use Sandslash, rhydon, or graveler for a ground over this thing.

I don't really see what vaporeon really has over the other waters in the tier that makes it worthy of A, and am neutral on the rest of the nominaitons.

Also can we move kingler down? It's physical bulk is lower than vaporeon's, its special is terrible, its speed is mediocre, and a crit crabhammer only does marginaly more than vaporeon's surf and less than its hydro pump. Also if you want a sword dancing water that works as a mixed attacker, tentacruel can largely do that better, thanks to better speed, special, and access to wrap.

For the rest of D, move dewgong up, since countering articuno is very good and move clef down (its own description seems to admit it has no real niche). Also move poliwhirl up to D, it is better than most of E, and imo is roughly on par with golduck (hypnosis is good and outspeeding articuno is good).

Also I guess you could lead sing Twave clef, but that loses to all other sleeper leads (including hypno), although it can tank a hit from any of the leads (it beats zard, buzz, and mr mime), and it does have dual status.

Also, you could run Poliwhirl as a lead, but it isn't great due to low hypnosis accuracy and whirl's fraility. Although it is a sleeper lead that doesn't lose to Charizard, and it can set up on some of the other leads. Poliwhirl ties venemoth (although venemoth's sleep powder is more accurate so it wins on average), beats anything slower, beats zard (It can take a crit hyper beam, but really doesn't want to), has an awkward tie with Mr. mime (A crit thunderbolt OHKOes), loses to buzz and haunter, and can sleep the grasses, but doesn't want to stay in on them. Poliwrath doesn't work because its fighting type only worsens its lead match-ups (it does marginally better versus zard, but it's still 2HKoed by a CH hyper beam so it doesn't matter much, and the fact that it has a chance to live a crit thunderbolt from mr mime doesn't help when it is soundly ohkoed by a critting psychic) and it is too slow to beat any sleeper other than hypno and clef, and the added bulk isn't enough to be worth it.

I guess you could theoretically run electrode as a lead, since it can para any of the other leads, but it is terrible on so many levels that it isn't remotely worth including, imo.

And I do not support moving dabra up-- it is extremely physically frail, to the point where it cannot take almost any surprise physical attack, and it isn't really near zam's level of special tankiness (Its lowered HP really hurts it), which is very important in a tier where articuno, the hardest hitting special attacker is king.

EDIT: I fixed a few math//fact errors mainly involving poliwhirl. Namely that it is slower than haunter and that mr mime can OHKO (I forgot crits).
 
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Believe me, at this point Raichu is great at sweeping if not paralyzed and this is not surprising at all with 2 birds and a water being on most teams (and Rhydon being common too). It's checked only by Kadabra and Hypno, and Tangela is reasonably rare. Dugtrio is the best answer as it outspeeds Raichu; also, I feel Dugtrio should run Earthquake/Rock Slide/Body Slam/Substitute. Rock Slide 2hkos birds; at the same time it's weak, but we need more testing to see if it can do its job with high speed and a bit of paralysis support to abuse Substitute (with no dedicated counters like Tangela being around most of the time). At first glance, it looks that it needs setup (damage) on waters, or a critical hit ( it fails to 3HKO...). Nonetheless, pressuring waters is very good.

Vaporeon has Body Slam and is more indifferent to paralysis (and burns, it can use Rest). This is what it has over Tentacruel, that is weak to ground (2hko'd by EQ in general, 60% ohko'd by Rhydon).

Dewgong is similar and is immune to freezes, but Vaporeon has slightly better stats, access to Acid Armor, and counters Moltres too (and taking neutral damage from Rock Slide is cool).
Waters are great, and that's why Vaporeon could be considered A (B would be fine too, but Vaporeon is not weaker than Tentacruel- it's just defensive vs offensive). Being unable to counter Moltres is what really hurts Dewgong.

Kadabra is good, even though I experienced myself that CH Fire Blast OHKOs it. Its job is to come in vs Hypno or Raichu to spread status, and it's one of the very few that can do this.

Omastar is good at tanking Hyper Beams and answers birds and Kangaskhan while it's decent vs Rhydon, but its attacks are easy to take. I agree it should be a lot higher than E; Golduck and Blastoise could move up too.
Blastoise feels a bit outclassed, Golduck could be better than Poliwrath with Hypno and Kadabra around.
 
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Ortheore

Emeritus
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Disagree with Golduck being better than Poli. Sure Poli fears Psychics, but it checks MoltCuno just as well as Duck, while providing Sleep and a rock resist. Those things make Poliwrath incredibly easy to fit onto teams, to the point where in a teambuilding binge I went on I included it on a lot of teams though I inconveniently forgot that it's not withstanding the bird assaults for long. I don't think either of them are good sweepers, especially in a tier where Electrics are fantastic and Bel is common as well. Could be alright in C tho

Things like Dug and Persian fall into the same category where I think they're on the fringe of being mainstays of the tier, definitely more testing needs to be done here imo. I guess the biggest issue facing Persian is competition with Khan, but fast Ground is something only Dug can lay claim to so that's something to note. Normals definitely need testing

I agree with Marco when it comes to dropping Bel, just not as far as C. It's still very viable on the strength of switching into Raichu and water types, which are literally everywhere. However it is most definitely birdfood, and status + wrap just aren't enough to make up for this since they're pretty easy to play around imo. B rank.

I still think Tangela's rubbish, being a comfy switch into Don doesn't mean much when there's already plenty of stuff to threaten it, meanwhile it accomplishes literally nothing. Dual status can only get you so far, and bird food is bad. I mean Bel is way more threatening and it still struggles with being bird food

I need more battles lol
 
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