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ORAS 1U Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    eh bugger it... its offensive typing is actually pretty good, sure why not.
     
  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Due to the absence of activity on this currently, I am voiding my previous statement; expect 2U to be formed at some point after pokebattle is re-released.
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Added regular blaziken to C+.
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Conversation with Illusions over Skype
    [20:35:16] Illusions: arc-ghost down to A+ imo
    [20:35:32] Illusions: mmy too probably
    [20:35:57] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah I can't rly comment on the mewtwo's I'm so fucking bad at building with them
    [20:36:07] George S. [Disaster Area]: the one time I used CM LO Mewtwo I blitzed everything though
    [20:36:20] George S. [Disaster Area]: and arc ghost is pretty hard to answer/versatile is the logic behind it in S
    [20:36:27] George S. [Disaster Area]: I think it's on par with ogre
    [20:36:36] Illusions: yeah but it's ho-oh and y-god bait
    [20:36:38] George S. [Disaster Area]: SD hasn't got many answers, CM beats most of SD's answers and not much beats it
    [20:36:48] George S. [Disaster Area]: CM thunder and SD don't mind ho-oh so much
    [20:36:54] George S. [Disaster Area]: and ygod's not the worst mon in the world to be bait to
    [20:36:58] George S. [Disaster Area]: and CM Thunder's an awesome set
    [20:36:58] Illusions: I guess
    [20:37:03] George S. [Disaster Area]: for slaughtering both
    [20:37:16] George S. [Disaster Area]: and like your defog one or CM wisp one are rarer and not so good but definitely realistic options too
    [20:37:26] Illusions: ye ik
    [20:37:34] Illusions: arc-electric should probably get a boost
    [20:37:38] George S. [Disaster Area]: do u think?
    [20:37:41] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's kinda funky to build with
    [20:37:50] George S. [Disaster Area]: I did make a nice build with it but it has like terrak and mega metagross on fsr
    [20:37:59] George S. [Disaster Area]: like the only thing defensively it offers is
    [20:37:59] Illusions: lol
    [20:38:01] George S. [Disaster Area]: a good zekrom answer
    [20:38:03] George S. [Disaster Area]: and checks a few things
    [20:38:13] Illusions: realistically it's the best offensive cm forme
    [20:38:19] George S. [Disaster Area]: ogre (not switching in), ho-oh (but sf is a harder move to switch into than brave bird), ygod
    [20:38:25] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah probably
    [20:38:29] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's tricky to answer
    [20:38:30] George S. [Disaster Area]: so yeah
    [20:38:44] Illusions: doesn't mind sab much either
    [20:38:47] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah that's cool
    [20:38:54] Illusions: and only a few good mons check it
    [20:38:55 | Edited 20:38:58] George S. [Disaster Area]: it's a nice mon to bust through your typical sun
    [20:38:59] George S. [Disaster Area]: mm
    [20:38:59] Illusions: y
    [20:39:21] George S. [Disaster Area]: dialga's a good check esp. since toxic+lots of spdef is what I view as the standard lol
    [20:39:23] Illusions: I could see m-diancie going to A+ too
    [20:39:29] George S. [Disaster Area]: tho m-sab means more SpA investment sometimes
    [20:39:37] George S. [Disaster Area]: that's like the only thing to really
    [20:39:39] George S. [Disaster Area]: bone eleceus
    [20:39:40] Illusions: dialga's the best check imo
    [20:39:41] George S. [Disaster Area]: that's common tho
    [20:39:41] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah
    [20:39:51] George S. [Disaster Area]: there's a few things that beat it better but you don't really see so often
    [20:40:07 | Edited 20:40:10] George S. [Disaster Area]: toxic wish clef but 4MSS of hell, gastrodon/quagsire
    [20:40:15] George S. [Disaster Area]: snatch bliss/chans
    [20:40:21] George S. [Disaster Area]: and toxic I guess too actually
    [20:40:22] George S. [Disaster Area]: ofc
    [20:40:23] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah
    [20:40:31] George S. [Disaster Area]: but yeah the most common rly good check is
    [20:40:35] George S. [Disaster Area]: defo 100% dialga
    [20:40:48] Illusions: everything else is full stall
    [20:40:52] George S. [Disaster Area]: yeah lol
    [20:41:02] George S. [Disaster Area]: I'm the sorta person who if it was my main tier anyway would
    [20:41:05] George S. [Disaster Area]: build tons of weird full stalls
    [20:41:22] George S. [Disaster Area]: I tend to resort to more offensive stuff when I have multiple tiers or whatever to dedicate my time to
    [20:41:30] George S. [Disaster Area]: in XY Ubers I fucked around with so much stall it's unreal
    [20:41:37] George S. [Disaster Area]: I have made some nice quirky stalls in this tier but they're fewer
    [20:41:37] Illusions: the rankings seem solid outside of that tho
    In summary I'll move Arceus-Electric up to A-, but I hope he decides to comment on here too with respect to Mewtwo Y and maybe Mega Diancie or anything else he wants to comment on.
     
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    [​IMG] Mewtwo (Mega Y) S -> A+
    LO Mewtwo is pretty much as good as mega mewtwo Y and I feel like it makes it a lot more usable in a lot of scenarios. I'm not actually so certain either should be S now. Offensively they're really awesome (but so's many other things like reshiram and m-luc lower down th ranks) and their high speed (above arc darkrai and skymin..) is really neat, but I'm not sure either's S worthy to be honest, mainly because they offer so little defensively. I think mega Y and regular at same rank tbh, since mega Y takes up a mega slot and it's reasonably likely that slot will be wanted.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Rock A -> A- It's really good still but it's not very easy to fit, I think A is overrating a one-dimensional mon that's not tooo hard to break and only answers a couple of key threats.
    [​IMG] Zekrom A -> A- It can be dangerous but it's pretty easy to prepare for and due to immunities can be pretty tricky to use a lot of the time.
    [​IMG] Deoxys-S A- -> A I think HO as a whole is actually pretty viable (I have a few variants around now) and I think A is fair for deo-S
    [​IMG] Dialga A- -> A possibly. discuss.
    [​IMG] Latios (Regular) - I rarely use this. Kind of feel like latias is plain better most of the time, should it move down any further or anything of the sort?
    [​IMG] Lugia - Could move down. It is great, but it's hard to build stall with it I find (trouble figuring out a good wincon, spikers aren't really reliable in stall v stall matchups - in fact with sab around they're really not very useful a lot of the time.. unless you want to go hard stall where you're willing to play rocks + PP stall strat...)
    [​IMG] Aegislash - B+ -> B- Its main niche is pursuit + checking xern, and it can secede momentum pretty easily to dangerous stuff like ho-oh. Jirachi does most stuff better (more movepool variety, better speed, etc. lets it run a couple of different sets, and stuff like healing wish and thunder wave is so much more generally useful)
    [​IMG] Arceus-Grass B+ -> A- kinda feel like something that's so good vs groudon and kyogre and zekrom and palk .... it just answers a lot and it a good fit on balance, and generally isn't too restricted on moveslots, so you can usually fit stone edge for ho-oh if you need it.
    [​IMG] Clefable B -> B- ok it gets rocks and a lot of other useful stuff but I feel it's just not quite bulky enough to really cover all you want from it. most sets want toxic+moonblast to do anything useful, and wish/moonlight for recovery, leaving you one slot for rocks/bell/protect.
    [​IMG] Excadrill B -> B- feel like it's kind of an awkward fit
    [​IMG] Klefki B -> B+ feel like it's actually a pretty good fit
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega) B- -> C too frail and the typing 50/50s aren't exactly something you want imo.
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U B- -> C it's only really a niche scarfer
    [​IMG] Sylveon B- -> B legitimately think this is a good pokemon. Specially bulkier than xern making it more defensively reliable, can wish pass, and has access to baton pass. Also hits really hard without investment meaning it can be super bulky whislst still really threatening arc dark. It's surprising the hits it can take some time.
    [​IMG] Victini B- -> C+ does anyone use this? could even go lower
    [​IMG] Hippowdon C+ -> C- can't get m-sab.
    [​IMG] Tentacruel C+ -> C doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as smeargle and mega maw. It's just too frail imo.
    [​IMG] Thundurus C+ -> C- feel like it's both very frail and somewhat niche.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon C -> C- doesn't really do very much in this meta. Why would you run it? Should it even be ranked?
    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega) - should it be ranked?
    [​IMG] Salamence (Regular) C -> C- I use it and it deserves to be ranked but it's very niche as a wisher/maybe defogger.
    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega) thoughts?
    [​IMG] Umbreon C -> C- again viable and again a sort of an only me pokemon.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Blastoise (Mega) - removing it.
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega X) - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Diancie (Regular) - does it deserve to be ranked?
    [​IMG] Forretress - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Garchomp (Regular) - C- -> C+, it's a very legitimate rocks user. Could even go higher.
    [​IMG] Kabutops - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Kingdra - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Omastar - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Reshiram - C- -> C+ I built with it and it's actually kinda cool. breaks stall. absorbs some wisps (e.g. m-sab). Checks CM Eleceus pretty well alongside groudon. Flame charge adds some speed. It's nice.
    [​IMG] Sceptile (Mega) - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Scolipede - should this be ranked?
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega) - should this be ranked?

    EDIT: Reshiram could actually go B-, it's a decent stallbreaker with a couple of minor defensive niches, and rocks are easier to keep off than in XY with magic bouncers around. Sun's also fairly common in general.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
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  6. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    nah stalltwo's kinda ass with mega sab around making it a poor stallbreaker. I don't think mewtwo X is any good really since it has less abilitiy to hit everything at once, and there's plenty of better ekiller checks out there.

    I mean, HO is good, but deo-s isn't exactly what makes it good nor is HO that impactful (at least compared to many other tiers).

    Not really a specsogre check...

    I mean you can use it outside of meye stall I just think it competes a lot with physdef ygod which is a lot more reliable and proactive than lugia, which only has the advantage of being a ho-oh/kyogre check (but not beating ghostceus ever). I could see it in B+ but I want other stall players/builders to comment.

    Well, it's pursuit but also anti-leading (with shadow sneak) or being a better ho-oh lure (with rock slide) that grant it some form of a niche (as well as being a better mewtwo check actually..) but it's a lot more one dimensional, and even stuff like mega metagross and scizor compete with it somewhat.

    I mean I run stone edge on this thing half the time... I mean it lets in quite a few other things too (like ray or kyurem-white for example, depending on your set) and it's not an amazing defogger (granted in some cases it has enough opportunities to come in, BUT it lacks any status immunities whatsoever so there's that) but it's still pretty good and covers a lot I feel without being too awful at seceding momentum.

    well i've not seen or tried sand whatsoever, but mold breaker I sorta tried. I feel like it's pretty ineffective even on paper though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
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  8. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    I support most of these promotions, but I'd like to touch on some Pokemon:

    [​IMG] Sceptile (Mega) - This Pokemon should remain C- or unranked. It is incapable of breaking stall, doesn't pose a threat to offensive teams, and is not a good choice for a mega. If you're looking to use an offensive Grass type, you're better off using Shaymin-Sky, which abuses Serene Grace boosted moves and can Healing Wish to another teammate.

    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega) - Mega Lopunny is at best scaring off opposing Darkrai, and I see nothing else noteworthy of this Pokemon. It can act as an anti-lead with Magic Coat, but it generally is unreliable. C- is the verdict.

    [​IMG] Forretress - I'd put this Pokemon at C for now. Custap Hazards is probably it's best set, but then you'd have to apply pressure correctly to keep them on the field.

    [​IMG] Scolipede - Definitely C+ or B-. Very good vs. Deoxys-S teams, but it is generally dead weight vs Mega Sableye teams.

    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega) - Maybe C or C+. Physical bulk is great, but it is too slow, prone to status/getting Taunted, and is weak to special attackers.

    [​IMG] Diancie (Regular) - No rank. It doesn't specialize in performing any role as it is overshadowed by superior Pokemon. Diancie has solid 50/150/150 bulk, but it can't be put to use because of the omnipresence of Water and Ground type attacks, and it doesn't find many opportunities to come in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  9. ogasian

    ogasian Member

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    Darkrai probably merits a move up to S. Although many users have pointed out its lack of defensive utility, I think this is misguided. The ability to reliably take out one mon on the opposing team is inherently defensive, as it pretty much blanket checks anything slower than it, bar a few sleep talkers, with Ho-Oh being the most prominent. Even then, Ho-Oh should be hesitant to switch in, as Thunder is a pretty good coverage move, and taunt is underrated too. As for its offensive capabilities...I think they don't need any further explanation.
     
  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    It's bold but I think I agree.
    What about sab matchup?

    Btw going to now finalize these changes:
    [​IMG] A+
    [​IMG] S
    [​IMG] A-
    [​IMG] A
    [​IMG] B-
    [​IMG] A-
    [​IMG] B-
    [​IMG] C+
    [​IMG] B+
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] C
    [​IMG] B
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] Remains C
    [​IMG] C-
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] C+
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] B-
    [​IMG] Unranked
    [​IMG] C+

    Still looking for thoughts on:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I've been doing a lot of building lately so I have a lot to say!

    [​IMG] Diancie (Mega) | A -> A- | I think just due to its horrible stats distribution and such, in spite of its awesome typing and ability, I really don't feel any more like it's all that great a pick. Certainly, I think A is overrating it, classing it alongside titans of the tier such as Xerneas and Mega Blaziken. Could even see it moved to B+, but no lower.
    [​IMG] Dialga | A- -> A | It's one of the very best stealth rock users in the tier, with an useful typing. Offensive teams love its capabilities to answer CM Eleceus and Zekrom handily, and it fits on everything bar hard stall.
    [​IMG] Heatran | B+ -> B | I think whilst it's an awesomely reliable stealth rock user, it does little beyond that. To some degree it can stallbreaker with taunt and roar, and it beats non-CM+Focus Blast or LO xern... but that's not really much other than a Mono/Sub CMer.
    [​IMG] Kyurem-W | B- -> C | I feel like there's very little reason to run it. Whilst it has awesome power, so do a variety of other Pokémon that usually offer some greater form of niche defensively than it offers.
    [​IMG] Victini | B- -> Unranked | Not really viable
    [​IMG] Hippodown | C+ -> C- | Has a small niche on stall
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U | C+ -> C- | Barely viable but has some sort of a distincy niche as a scarf
    [​IMG] Tentacruel | C+ -> C- | Has minimal defensive utility and hazard control isn't in short supply. Competes heavily with arceus-poison for a teamslot.
    [​IMG] Whimsicott | C+ -> C | Whilst it does some distinct things, not answering yveltal in spite of being a fairy and having very limited offensive utility is kinda mediocre in this tier.
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon | C -> C- | I tested it a little, it's not good
    [​IMG] Cresselia | C -> C- | Barely viable
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire | C- -> Unranked | Does it even have a niche?
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying | C- -> Unranked | Has anyone tried the CM / Judgement / Recover / Earth Power or Refresh set? It sounds kinda nice but rocks weakness sucks and it offers no defensive utility really.
    [​IMG] Terrakion | C- -> B | It's a decent scarfer and usable stealth rock setter, particularly on webs.
     
  12. K Legacy

    K Legacy Unironically Bad Member

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    What else I would Change:

    Mega Metagross -> C+
    It's just better then all the C's and C- mons, It's on par with all the C+ plus if not slightly better but it eats a mega slot and has no recovery.

    Mega Lucario -> B-
    It's good on webs but just has different typing then metagross outside webs teams.
     
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  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Hoopa-U should be C-, it's a super anti-mewtwo scarfer with trick which makes it slightly more handy versus stall. But yeah C- is enough for it.

    Mega Meta still competes with a ton of mons. Mega Luc as you say for an offensive steel, but aegi / ttar are just as good pursuiters for latias, and it's not as useful offensively, and it can't fit a rock move quite as easily as m-luc (kinda prefers tpunch to hit kyogre too..) and it doesn't really answer anything that aegi does, all it does is be less ho-oh bait and give fewer free turns. Mega Luc is a different beast, it's a dark resist with multiple priority options. Basically it acts as your wincon + darkrai answer and can fit on really offensive teams alongside stuff like ray and ekiller and check stuff with priority, but does face serious competition with mega blaze in that role. I've run SD and Agility (agility was kinda meh but still..) and it's a nasty mon to face with a lot of teams. Definitely needs mid B. I think meta for only C. Faces a lot of competition and takes up a mega slot and shit.
     
  14. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    Proposing Lando-T to B+- Because it is a good rocks setter, but doesn't blanket check physical threats all that well to be honest. Its not an amazing ekiller,etc check and relies too heavily on intimidate.

    Klefki- A - Utility, stops all the deadly sweepers in the tier and can get rocks up vs either MDiancie Bounce or MEye bounce squads depending on coverage it chooses.

    Hippo -> C-, same problem as with Lando-T but even worse. Basically sucks too much momentum doesn't feel like it has niche>Groudon in any way excep possibly Slack Off.

    Gira-A - C- -> Checks things very loosely except for possibly Ekill, gigantic bait for Darkrai and GhostCeus, and again feels like an inferior Gira-0 for the most part
     
  15. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    [​IMG] Diancie (Mega) | A -> A-
    [​IMG] Dialga | A- -> A
    [​IMG] Heatran | B+ -> B-
    [​IMG] Kyurem-W | B- -> C
    [​IMG] Victini | B- -> Unranked
    [​IMG] Hippodown | C+ -> C
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U | C+ -> C-
    [​IMG] Tentacruel | C+ -> C-
    [​IMG] Whimsicott | C+ -> C
    [​IMG] Arceus-Dragon | C -> C-
    [​IMG] Cresselia | C -> C-
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fire | C- -> Unranked
    [​IMG] Arceus-Flying | No change
    [​IMG] Terrakion | C- -> B
    [​IMG] Mega Metagross | C- -> C

    Finalising these changes.
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I can see the draw to this comment, interested in other opinions
    I think on most teams it can't really be used as the emergency check one might like it to be. That being said in spite of its low stats it's surprisingly effective in general. I think A is overrating it a lot though and I'm not sure I would even stretch it to A- but if there's other corroborating opinions on it i might move it.

    Well it's a great blaze check and has sand and unlike lando-t has recovery but on the flipside can't really get rocks up vs m-sab. Only fits on very specific builds. I could see it to C- but k legacy disagrees, another opinion would be great.

    I think it's not thaaaat bad. Maybe down to C if you really wanted. It's not really ghostceus bait since SD is probably the best / most common set and that can't switch into it really. It also acts as a specsogre switch if you need it to which is nb. Also a very soft check to ho-oh.

    --

    Also, going to move garchomp to C-, it sort of has a niche but it's not very well defined.
     
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  17. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    Jirachi should drop from B+ to B. Yes, it is superb at hampering/checking offensive Psychic, Fairy, and Dragon (to an extent) Pokemon, but that is the only thing it's good at. Also, the other tanks in the tier outperform it (for example, Klefki can spread necessary status, effectively apply pressure, check Psychics/Fairies/Dragons, and Gliscor can use SR, spread status, and outstall opponents). Lastly, its lack of resistance to 4 of the 5 most common attacks in the tier (Ground, Fire, Dark, Water) means it can open up weaknesses in teambuilding.
     
  18. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Well it's probably the best xerneas answer (alongside Aegislash) and unlike Aegislash has U-turn and Thunder Wave and Wish that allow it to support the team. It can also run as a scarfer; whilst Genesect mostly outclasses, it does have Healing Wish. I sorta feel like that's enough for B+ but I see the arguement for B here.
     
  19. K Legacy

    K Legacy Unironically Bad Member

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    Agree with Lando-T to B+, Klefki to A- is a debate we can have but solid A is too high. As for hippo how do you suck momentum on stall? Apparently chansey is a bad mon on stall now. It also has recovery and helps kill sun on sun teams. Gira-A is shit so do what you want with it.
     
  20. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    Yeah, I'm aware that it can function as a scarfer (something I should have also discussed in my post), but at the same time, it has glaring weaknesses that the opponent can take advantage of rather easily. I also forgot to mention that from all of the games I've watched the past month or two (PPL + MT2), Jirachi was not used as much compared to other Xerneas checks and Rank B+ Pokemon. If B+ is where you want to leave it at the moment, I won't contend with that stance, though I would like to bring up discussion on it again in the future.
     

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