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RBY Ubers / 1P Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Surely some stuff like Rhydon / Golem might deserve a spot in B too though. When we have new frontiers on here for this meta we can have more experiments with these Pokémon and others.
     
  2. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Soo I had some games today, time to dump my thoughts

    I used Lapras and it was overall kinda shitty. I used Rest/Ref/Blizz/Tbolt. It's a good check to physical attackers, but struggles against anything specially oriented, particularly M2. I mean, M2 doesn't like the threat of a Blizz freeze, but if it gets in there's no way you're going fishing for that while it sets up. C imo

    Used Zam, it didn't do shit beyond paralysing Tauros due to luck. I think overall it's about what I expected, limited but still able to lead. C imo.

    Zap's nice against most of the OUs, but it doesn't do shit against the ubers, meaning it can be a bit of a liability. Deserves to drop imo

    Wrap is actually pretty decent if you're looking to spread paralysis. Like it's a good option for whittling down paralysed ubers if you can get it in for free (big if tho), while it also beats Bro. B worthy imo
     
  3. fawfulmk-II

    fawfulmk-II Member

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    Zap I think is that high for creating a psuedo Rock/Paper/Scissors system: Zap beats the Tanky OUs(Chance, Egg and Bro.) the Tanky OUs ar the only things that hang on par with the Ubers and can even potentiially beat them based on movepool. Ubers trash Zappy. Also having Agility in a tier where stat boosting is more common is probably a plus for the Instinct Bird too.
     
  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Lapras needs moves like CRay and Sing in case you want to use it. I think I'd use CRay+Rest, not that it would be any better than C, it's just not cut for Ubers.

    Zapdos uses TWave against Ubers and does it reliably, that is something you need a dedicated team to take advantage of. It makes Hyper Beam Snorlax a lot better.

    About Wrappers, I think you're talking about Victreebel more than Dragonite: I'm a bit surprised that Dnite can't even take an Ice Beam from Mewtwo. Exeggutor doesn't really take advantage of paralysis on Mews, Victreebel is a sleeper that does.
     
  5. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    I think the letters need to move down a little. Yes, I know it's incredibly centralised, but the recent relettering just sounds silly. S is already a "breaks the scale"; inflation like this just makes me look askance at the whole list.
     
  6. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Ok, I moved Chansey and Zapdos to S- for now.
     
  7. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Like this post if you're happy to change OP rank to S rank, S rank to A rank, A rank to B rank in all tiers then.

    This would mean 1U, 2U etc. tiers have a top rank of A.

    I think an extra top rank is very useful in terms of understanding.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
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  8. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Like this post if you want to keep the status quo.
     
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  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    uh, I think S rank is fine in the other VR threads, like a pokemon doesn't have to be broken to still dominate the meta. That's what S rank ought to be; dominant, not just really good. Hypno in 2U is a good example of this.

    In this instance its usage doesn't conform to that, Mew and M2 are the dominant ones, Chansey Lax and Bro are merely very good (and Zap doesn't even belong in that group). So yeah, probably change this thread but not the others

    edit: regarding Zap, firstly, it isn't really a Chansey answer, since Chansey has a lot of tools to cripple Zap and it all becomes super RNG dependent. Secondly, requiring a dedicated team is if anything an argument against it being that rank, and Zap mandates a very specific aggressive style of play. Lastly, paralysing ubers is hardly noteworthy when it accomplishes nothing beyond that, and more to the point, it's not all that unique as for many players getting their Mewtwo paralysed is seen as an advantage, making landing para not all that difficult.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
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  10. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    About Zapdos, saying it doesn't do well against ubers is not true.
    Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Mew: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 19.3% chance to 3HKO

    Zapdos also really hurts ChanBro without ice beam. I was going to put it down to A, but I think it's better than Tauros & Exeggutor. Exeggutor in Ubers is the kind of the Klefki of gen 1 imo. I think it's a good support mon but it's not really achieving massive goals without crit booming.

    I'm also not convinced Snorlax really is the top OU in ubers, as people seem to think:

    1. It's not going to do enough against Reflect Mew unless hax.
    2. Its booms can be baited with Mewtwo. The biggest alternate downside is going to be taking a Body Slam most of the time.
    3. Chansey isn't that common?
     
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    It should be listed under Tauros that it's also a lead
     
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  12. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    To be honest with you, I see a bigger gap between Snorlax and the rest of S rather than between Slowbro, Zapdos, Chansey, Exeggutor in any order.
    How can you dislike Zapdos in a metagame where it does so well vs 4/6 of the standard team (Chansey, Snorlax, Slowbro, Exeggutor) and causes paralysis to the other 2/6 consistently? (and as Lutra said, Mew needs Zapdos paralyzed or a paraslam happening).
    Notice that this game is really about switches, and in case Zapdos TWaves Mews, an unparalyzed Snorlax is not going to get paralyzed back by those.

    Snorlax vs Reflect Mew isn't comfortable, but: 1) Reflect Mew is walled by Gengar, and it's not using Explosion
    2) you should have a Mew of your own and a Mewtwo (+2 Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. Mew: 187-220 (46.4 - 54.5%)-- 60.3% chance to 2HKO)
    3) for this reason (point 1, not using Explosion), one of the best ways to deal with Mew is paralysing it and force it out with Explosion (or Slowbro in case you have one, Zapdos could be fine too) - Snorlax can exploit paralysis to sweep like Tauros does late in the game.
     
  13. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I wouldn't say Zap does "well" vs Lax and Chansey, with Lax's power and bulk meaning it often trades with Zap, while Zap needs hax to beat Chansey, while getting 3hko'd in return. And as I said, paralysis isn't necessarily a good thing, given that it gives M2 such a massive advantage in the ditto. I'd argue that it should be avoided in most scenarios for that reason.

    I also disagree with Lax>other 1Us, I'd much rather have Bro on my team, but it's still close overall which is why they're ranked together I guess
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Slowbro can't take Mewtwo, while Snorlax takes everything one on one leaving alone Reflect variants.
    What Slowbro does greatly is the Mew matchup, and that's why I could use Zapdos and Slowbro on the same team.

    Zapdos isn't meant to go one on one against a fresh Chansey (it can beat it and generate some kind of 2X1 in the big picture, I mean take it out and cripple something else); trading with Snorlax is a great trait.

    If you're talking about some Selfdestruct-less set, I agree that Snorlax is not better than the rest of OUs (it's great vs PhysLax in case it hase Reflect, or dangerous overall in case it has Amnesia+Ice), but that's not the way Snorlax performs better in Ubers.
    At the end of the day most of our cosiderations depend on builds we use, but we're at a point where Selfdestruct Mewtwo is a real thing...
     
  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I don't see how Bro doesn't take M2 and Lax does, given that M2 lacking Tbolt simply lose to Bro (or trade?), while Lax can only die against M2 in a best case scenario. The worst case is obviously that you mispredict and throw away your Lax.

    I'm still not seeing much reason to use Zap. You say that it's great against 4 of the top 1u pokemon but Chansey and Lax both neutralise it. When it comes to paralysing ubers, it's a question of whether your strategy is offensive or defensive. If you're playing defensively you never ever want to paralyse opposing ubers. If you're playing offensively then you want to pack multiple explosions (while also including some measure to not get 6-0'd by Barrier M2), which Zap doesn't help at all with- for a team that hinges on constantly pressuring the ubers, Zap really drops the ball a bit too much on that front. Also paralysing ubers is far from a distinctive characteristic, given that pretty much all defensive strategies hinge on it

    Also the thing with the lettering never got sorted and I made a bunch of other noms that never received much comment
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  16. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    I think we need more players testing to come up with a good consensus. Right now, too many places could be swapped below Mew and Mewtwo.
     
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  17. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Victreebel is an easy B imo. It can have some difficulty switching in, but it is awesome against Bro, and Wrap is also really excellent in this metagame as an alternate means of punishing stuff that gets paralysed
     
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  18. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Can you list some role keywords like in the OP to put next to Victreebel and any other Pokemon you think should be added?
     
  19. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    [​IMG] - Sleeper, paralysis spreader, Slowbro counter, Swords Dance sweeper, partial trapper.

    For some other things that are more C or lower:

    [​IMG] - Normal resist, counters physical attacking Mew and Snorlax, speed ties unparalyzed Mewtwo.

    [​IMG] - Transformer.

    [​IMG] - Ice resist, physical wall, boomer, partial trapper.

    [​IMG] - Electric counter, normal resist, phyiscal tank, counters mono-normal attacking Mew and Snorlax, boomer.

    [​IMG] - Boomer, checks Slowbro, only Pokemon that outspeeds unparalyzed Mewtwo.

    [​IMG] - Fast mixed sweeper, paralysis spreader, speed ties unparalyzed Mewtwo. - Checks Chansey, Zapdos and Slowbro.

    [​IMG] - Ice resist, Swords Dance sweeper, partial trapper.

    Tentacruel seems pretty interesting in ubers since Zam doesn't exist and Starmie isn't as common. It could be a pretty big threat after the opponent's Mewtwo is paralyzed and Gengar if present is weakened.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
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  20. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    A few more niche C or lower things:

    [​IMG] - Ice resist, sleeper, mixed tank.

    [​IMG] - Bulky special sweeper.

    [​IMG] - Lead, Swords Dance sweeper, partial trapper, physical Mew and Snorlax check.

    [​IMG] - Electric counter, normal resist, phyiscal tank, counters mono-normal attacking Mew and Snorlax.

    [​IMG] - Lead, spreads paralysis.

    [​IMG] - Sleeper, normal resist, weak boomer. – checks Slowbro, counters mono-normal attacking Mew / Snorlax.

    For Charizard, it's a check solely because of Flying-typing combined with Counter. Physical Mew can't OHKO Zard with Body Slam even at +6, so it can't risk attacking Zard if it has built up SDs, and trying to stall out Counter leaves openings for Zard to build up its own SDs or try to burn Mew. Only Mixed Mew doesn't have to worry about mind games against Zard. Also, more things should run Counter. If you fodder something to paralyzed Mew using Body Slam and it did a lot of damage, you can potentially get a chance to OHKO Mew if it FPs. Haunter's a niche backup Gengar to wall boom/mono-normals/screw over Vic/check Bro (Tbolt still has a 15% chance to OHKO with a crit). CRay + Night Shade might also let it RNG through paralyzed Mew or Mewtwo in the late game.
     

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