RBY OU Viability Rankings

It loses a lot of impact if your opponent knows what he's facing and how to play against it, but how does stossing help? Hypno still gets his Hypnosis and perhaps even a twave on Eggy AND gets to be sleep foddered. STossing doesn't particularly help.
Really, think about it / try it out yourself before calling it bad (well, it is bad, you can call it that. but it's not a 'cheap gimmick', it has its function of pretty much guaranteeing the sleep trades where you want them as long as your hypnosis luck isn't awful).

@Marco: I thought of that set actually (with HBeam > BSlam but you get the point), but yeah, far too frail on the special side to really be viable. That set is definitely not D rank material.

 

Sooooo I've got a new proposal.

Everything in A- => B
Everything in B => C
Whatever looks out of place in the new C based on consensus (Dnite?) => D

Based on current discussion, I feel like A-/A+/S are settled for the time being. Meanwhile, based on discussion in this thread and in Marco's 2P/2U thread, there is nothing even remotely resembling a consensus as to what belongs in B/C. It seems like literally everything in B has been suggested as potentially dropping down to C, while some players have spoken in favour of Cloy and/or Bel being in B (or at the very least spoken positively of them). It seems to me that there's no distinct line between B and C, while there are very distinct lines between A-, A+, S and below. Consequently, I think all of B and C should be grouped together, while it just seems logical to me that we'd eliminate a subrank and recognise that the gap between A- and A+ is sufficient to warrant separate ranks.

The only drawback to my proposal as I see it is that our descriptions of each rank might then be inaccurate- potentially underselling a lot of pokemon.

Also I've singled out Dnite as potentially dropping to D because I don't recall much support for it lately while a few have expressed the opinion that it's shit, but you never know lol, this is the cue for someone to point out that it can still be an absolutely dominant sweeper with only a little luck. In any case, I don't think it ought to be dropped if more than one person argues for it in C, even though I suspect they'd be a minority.

Although I normally think it's silly to hold a vote for this kind of thing, that's another thing worth considering to clear up this mess.

 

Yeah I don't support that, we should stick with what the ranks mean. It is definitely a bit of an ambiguous state on the whole right now though. I think more discussion and play can only be healthy though; maybe it will make sense in a few months to have an open vote on the rank of every mon from A- down to D, idk. I don't think the rankings are in a bad place right now though; I think there's some possible changes we can make between D/E ranks but I think on the whole all of the B and C ranks belong where they are even though with any one Pokemon there's at least one or two people in support of some sort of a change; there isn't a huge amount of support on any change except for the support which there was for for moving rhydon up to A- which has been done now at the behest of the community.

Interesting idea though.

 

I still support this. I don't even think the descriptions are all that inaccurate in that scenario either, like I feel the C rank description describes most of the pokemon in B, while I definitely think A- is a little questionable, but within reason.

Nails proposed earlier that Egg drop to form S-, which I agreed with. At this point though I'm even wondering whether it could even drop to A+. In virtually any team that aggressively spreads paralysis it can often become redundant, as sleep often becomes too difficult to get off, especially since bypassing any sleep blocker can often be difficult and costly. Admittedly, not all teams will be so aggressive with their para and you can try to ease up on paralysis until you get sleep off, but para is just so damn good that it can be too good to pass up, as it unlocks a lot of pokemon in terms of damaging the opposing team. If it can't get sleep off, Egg becomes a shell of itself, good for sponging hits from GolDon and blowing itself up and that's about it.

Maybe my playstyle's grown a little warped or something, but in sooooooo many matches I find myself noticing that Egg is kinda useless

 

Nope, Exeggutor to A+ makes no sense. I can see a point dropping it to S- because of paraslam immunity for the other S, but it's just way better than the other A+.
Actually, it shapes the early game (lead/Chansey/Snorlax/Egg) so much (other than being extremely versatile and one of the very few if not only common Exploders) that I support it being straight S.

 

It's so adaptable too, and even the threat of sleep changes things. It's useful in every matchup and usually puts in serious work, but at the worst it can trade

Egg is still cleary S imo

 

eggy is very clearly the 4th best mon, and being crippled by body slam and having 2 weaknesses are rough, but it's still "you need good reasons to drop it" tier (the s ranks are "there are nearly never good reasons to drop them", fwiw). playing without eggy is almost always less effective than playing with it. sometimes it can feel bad to play with egg when you can't get a sleep off but the worst it will ever reasonably do is psychic into a paraed target and boom for a trade kill. the degree that it warps the game around the reliability of its sleep far surpasses anything outside of the big 3. how high its baseline is combined with how punishing it is at all stages of the game lock it somewhere in the s tier.

 

Whilst I advocate for Egg in S this isn't necessarily true. Now, granted, this is a small sample size, but today I played 8 tournament games and won 6. I brought victreebel 4 games (both wrap and sd variants) and won all of those games, but went 2-2 in the 4 games i brought exeggutor (this was for indigo cup vs ggyara & kaz and then vs alfredo in timvitational, all replays are publicly available)

But just because u can do fine when dropping egg (like I do) that doesn't make it not S rank, it's still excellent and u really lose nothing from bringing it to 100% of games lol. Also way more user-friendly than vic

 

yea i rephrased that line a few times and still didn't get it right. was going for usually it's better to use egg than not use egg.

 

Yesterday i lost with Starmie last and won with Pinsir both for tours, so what?
What Nails said is just right every team without one of the S ranks would be better if you add them. Playing around, "still winning" doesn't change a solid fact. Also i saw the matches you are referring to, not a good a example really.

 

I agree with the above. If we're tinkering with F/G ranks I reckon Electrode could possibly move down as well.

I still support Hypno->E. While I'm at it, is Kingler really that much better than the other SDers? I haven't seen or used one for a looooong time so idk

I still think A- should drop to B, and B to C. A- is a very clear step below A+, and that gap is far more distinct than that between C and B. As for B and C, you can argue that literally any pokemon in B belongs in C, and based on past discussions I think the only member of B that hasn't been argued as being bad is Jynx (at least, not to the extent of the others). Meanwhile all of C rank except for Dragonite has been argued to belong in B, and tbh Bel and Cloy are capable of posing enormous threats, albeit inconsistently, so I think those arguments are at least plausible.

 

Hitmonlee to F, definitely. I would even be open to moving it up to E. Muk down to G, sure. This isn't the first time people have called for Tuff to G and it's not like anything has changed for the better for it, might as well move it to G.

I think I agree with Hypno to E, the more I've thought about it the less it seems to offer in practice. That being said it matches up decently vs Egg leads which are making something of a return, so maybe someone could make the case that it's D-rank worthy in this meta. Definitely open to hearing arguments on Kingler... Zapdos and Starmie continue to be problems for it and are of course very common in the current meta. It's a mon that can work but I think Kingler to E is an option.

tl;dr:
moving Hitmonlee to F, suggested moving it to E
moving Muk and Tuff down to G
supportive of but would like more discussion about Kingler/Hypno to E

 

I think Omastar should be at least F-worthy. Offensively it's similar but a little worse than Articuno, but defensively it does some different things.

It also 2HKOs Tauros & 3HKOs Lax while resisting Normal & Ice

 

I mean yea it's kinda like a worse articuno that can absorb Hyper Beams very well. I think that's at least F worthy tho. Does anyone think it's worth E?

 

I'll move Oma from G to F. Want more opinions on pory E -> D but I'm personally pretty neutral on it. It does seem to put in work consistently

 

I'd like to propose an upward move for Raticate. I thought about this theoretically, and think I found a niche for it to be a menace or outright beat reflectlax. I haven't battled in about a year so please be gentle if my knowledge of the reflect/rest mechanics is incorrect.

I probably should have researched this before delving into the strategy, but everything that follows is contingent upon super fang working normally through reflect.

Moves to note:
Super fang does 50% remaining HP.
Rat Bslam does 20% to 23.7% to Snorlax
Rat H Beam does 35.1% to 41.4% to Snorlax
Snorlax bslam 43.1% - 50.7% has a 2.4% chance to 2hko. So 97.6% of the time, it's a three turn battle.
Snorlax EQ 33.5% - 39.6%
Snorlax Ice beam 25.2% - 29.7%
Snorlax Hbeam 75.7% to 89.1%

Given that the two most common sets of reflectlax are:
bslam, eq, reflect, rest
and
bslam, ice beam, reflect, rest

Raticate has a niche to beat Snorlax sets that drop Hbeam.

Super fang to 50% + Bslam + hbeam always beats snorlax if no reflect is up. Raticate outspeeds lax, and doesn't have to worry about bslam para from lax. This wins 97.6% of the time against reflectlax sets without hbeam.

If reflect is already up, ideally Rat comes in during the turn Reflectlax uses rest.
Turn 1: Raticate can then tail whip to put Reflectlax at +1 defense, meanwhile Lax wastes one sleep turn.
Turn 2: Rat then super fangs to 50%, as Lax wakes up.
Turn 3: Rat super fangs to 25%, Lax should rest. If lax doesn't rest, rat eats a bslam 43.1 - 50.7%
Turn 4: Rat Hyper beams +1 Reflectlax which does 23.9 - 28.1% or 71.8% chance to finish off Lax.

If, Lax rests on turn 3, Rat will Superfang +1Lax down to 50% as lax burns one sleep turn. Rat will superfang +1Lax down to 25% as +1Lax wakes up. Hbeam will then have a 71.8% chance to finish the job once more.

In the case where reflect is already up, and the rest from Reflectlax is not predicted:
Turn 1: Rat enters as Lax burns its first sleep turn.
Turn 2: Rat superfangs reflectlax down to 50%, Reflectlax wakes up.
Turn 3:Rat superfangs reflectlax down to 25%, reflectlax uses body slam and deals 43.1 - 50.7% to Rat.
Turn 4: Rat uses tail whip and reflectlax is now +1Lax. +1Lax now rests, and is forced to switch out or potentially lose over the next three turns. In which case, you will hit something switching in with a super fang, dealing up to 50% damage.
If +1Lax stays in, it's Super fang, super fang (+1Lax wakes up), Hbeam for a 71.8% chance of beating +1Lax.

Finally, if in a pinch, Rat can switch into a bslam and eat 43.1% to 50.7% damage. Then on the next turn Rat uses superfang. If lax stays in, fang does 50% the remaining HP, while reflectlax likely bslams you. Rat will have a 97.6% chance to live, and if so you can superfang again, before dying to any move lax uses.
Reflectlax will now be at 25% HP:
Eggy Psychic 28.2 - 33.4
Zam Psychic 30.2 - 35.5
Starmie Psychic 24.2 - 28.6 84.6% chance to OHKO 25% Reflectlax
Lapras Blizzard 31.3 - 36.9
Zap Tbolt 29.8 - 35.1

Unfortunately without crits, Tauros, Chansey, Blizzbolt Starmie, Gengar and any non stab special moves will likely not finish the job.

Just to be clear, the set for Raticate I had in mind while writing this was:
Super Fang
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Tail Whip

It'll get walled hard by nonlead Gengar. However, I think the popularity of reflectlax is greater than that of nonlead Gar. If your opponent leads with Gar, you'll know immediately upon the match starting and formulate a plan to use the rest of your team to deal with Gengar while your Rat waits to counter Non Hbeam Lax.
It won't do great against the rocks either, but if Rat is unparalyzed you can at least eat 50% HP from them which leaves them in Tauros Blizzard Range 53 - 62.4% on Rhydon. 54.8 to 64.4% on Golem.

Finally, if you don't want to reveal tail whip as the final move, you can attempt to crit through the 25% reflectlax with body slam. Rat's crit rate is 18.95% which is higher than Jynx, but a hair lower than Zapdos.

Again, please be gentle if this proposal is way off. I haven't battled in quite some time and was thinking theoretically about ways to counter reflectlax.

**Edit: I forgot to mention that recover users can easily stall you. Rat will need some para support, or throw out some body slams for the likes of Starmie and Zam. Chansey should be fairly easy to paralyze with team support.