GSC OU Umbreon [Discussion Ready]

i dont see pursuit / hpdark / charm / rest as having any viability. i think if u want an umbreon set that can fully remove ghosts you will always choose the pursuit + trappass set. 1 it is way more effective at removing (both ghosts but focus is on rest missy) bc the 3hko of pursuit + hp dark likely requires making all three correct predictions rather than one v favorable 50/50. (also pursuit + hp dark still doesnt help w (unstatused) starmie.) 2 pursuit ml pb is way more threatening whereas pursuit hp dark is a momentum drain vs everything other than pursuit targets.
yes the loss of charm is significant for pursuit ml bp, but on the other hand having neither toxic nor sleep talk is annoying for charm umb bc u cant pressure charm targets without toxic and eventually you can still be forced to rest giving opponent momentum.

ik hp dark was more brought up as a technical point not rly as a suggestion. but i think if u want to revise or qualify the ‘rest missy hard walls umbreon’ sentence (which i agree with doing since its not completely true), the qualification should be, except for pursuit trappass. pursuit trappass is arguably better at removing ghosts than either ttar or houndoom, esp their sets without crunch, tho its hard to compare but u can still force v favorable 50/50s and not rly caring about dynamic punch is a big plus vs gengar, and typically being less vulnerable to status is a plus vs missy.
or, you could j edit the sentence to clarify that u are talking about that set rather than umb in general, and then potentially put an oo about pursuit trappass if you want to be able to fully remove ghosts at the cost of charm

 

The problem with running Umbreon without Charm is that role compression is the name of the game, particularly for stalls. A stall needs to have all of these or it is not a stall:

- 2 answers to Snorlax (because LK)
-- 1 of these needs to not die to Earthquake
-- 1 of these needs to not die to Fire Blast
-- 1 of these needs to not be based on Growl or Charm
- An answer to HP Zapdos
- An answer to CurseRoarers
- An answer to Marowak
- An answer to Vaporeon
- A p-hazer that is not Skarmory
- A Sleep Talker
- A Spinner

That's the bare minimum, and you want multiple coverage on some of those because of Explosion (e.g. if Raikou is your only answer to Zapdos - and by extension, Gengar - Explosion Gengar + Zapdos is going to be a Problem). It's also 9 roles, so some will have to do double or triple duty, and it's strongly preferred if anything else you want to add (Pursuiter, Beller, Spiker, Fighting resist, offence) also does at least one of those.

Umbreon with Charm fills two of those roles - "Snorlax answer (that doesn't die to Fire Blast)" and "CurseRoarer answer". Umbreon without Charm fills none. This creates issues trying to fit it onto a stall team - not insurmountable ones, but serious ones. You'll probably have to stake the game on winning the Spikes war if you go this route, because you won't have room for any other meaningful offence.

 

but idt stall is the playstyle thatd be most likely to benefit from a more offensive umb that threatens all missy & gar sets anyway. monolax is the only potential pokemon on stall hard walled by ghosts, i think stall mainly cares about pursuit to combat spinblocking (and maybe pressure exploders?) and unless ur spinner is forretress forcing missy to rest should be enough pressure to find an opportunity to spin. and stall is unlikely to want to give up umb’s toxic or sleeptalk.
the teammates that are most likely to want an aggressive pursuit umb are eg monochamp and pursuit trappass umb is also good at bringing in such threats without them taking damage. also stall might not have adequate support to fully take advantage of a trappass which is necessary for it to effectively pursuit trap. eg often an ideal teammate for trappass support is AA vap (since it can set up on most trapped cursers without the charm support) which has no place in stall.

so i agree that stall would def not consider pursuit trappass, but i dont think it would likely consider hpdark either, and pursuit trappass is not stall oriented / doesnt fit on stall

 

1. Capital letters make text easier to read (as do paragraphs). If you want to engage in discussion, please have the courtesy to make your posts readable.

2. Stall cares about Pursuit to remove Cloyster, Starmie, Gengar and Misdreavus and therefore win the Spikes war. LK Drumlax isn't entirely out of the cards either (already a huge threat to Miltank and Umbreon teams, and by adding Pursuit you can get Gengar and Missy teams as well). In stall vs. stall one of these will often decide the match. Umbreon is generally chosen for the ability to remove Cloyster and Starmie, but you see the occasional Tyranitar for Missy because it's that annoying (it also provides some level of defence against opposing LK Drumlax).

3. Cloyster doesn't 3HKO Misdreavus with Surf, making it highly nontrivial to get off Rapid Spin against Rest Missy. (HP Ghost Forretress, on the other hand, does 3HKO Missy.)

4. No, you wouldn't necessarily use HP Dark on a stall, but it's not completely ridiculous either.

 

yes ofc also starmie, and to some extent cloy * sorry. i meant that pursuit is mainly oriented to the spikes game on stall but obv esp starmie is key and a main reason for choosing umb.

i didnt realize missy walls cloy that well, my mistake. maybe both could be mentioned as oo that remove missy (one for stall one for offense)