RBY OU Slowbro [Done]

[Heroic Troller]

I did not dispute the sense of the core himself, however i'm pretty sure when i say that i have never ever faced or watched a game with the two together. That was my meaning of "not a thing", pure usage given from eyes

Also quoting cores in an analysis does not make much sense to me, this is the Slowbro's thread, Zapdos beat ups, end of the story.

 

[marcoasd]

"Golem and Rhydon being common partners to Slowbro means their usefulness is generally limited in that matchup."
???
Kinesis Alakazam >>> ?!?!?!
Also, Surf is the better option due to sheer damage: the improved chance to OHKO Tauros (+4) and the OHKO on GolDon are enough reasons to pick Surf.

 

[Disaster Area]

"Golem and Rhydon being common partners to Slowbro means their usefulness is generally limited in that matchup."
???
Kinesis Alakazam >>> ?!?!?!

Jolteon and Zapdos in particular make it hard for Slowbro to set up; their high critical hit rates and STAB Electric-type attacks make sure of that. However, they do take a lot of damage from Slowbro's attacks, and Slowbro is sometimes paired with Rhydon or Golem, limiting their usefulness against Slowbro to forcing it out (which is certainly still useful). Finally, although it is virtually never seen, it is worth being aware that Alakazam with Kinesis can cause Slowbro problems - although Surf Slowbro is likely to be able to break through it, it's unlikely to be able to sweep afterwards, whilst Psychic Slowbro might not even be able to break the Alakazam.

the new passage

 

[Disaster Area]

I wonder if Kinesis Zam is really so irrelevant nowadays that I should remove mention of it entirely. It's funny though, back when I started playing RBY it was definitely a thing people used (including myself) and I kind of like mentioning it for completeness.

 

[Disaster Area]

Also, Surf is the better option due to sheer damage: the improved chance to OHKO Tauros (+4) and the OHKO on GolDon are enough reasons to pick Surf.

I hadn't mentioned the improved chance to OHKO Tauros at +4 but it is important so I will add it.

Although I'm generally more behind Psychic than Surf, my understanding is that on the whole players think Surf is better than Psychic so I will make this change.

 

[The Idiot Ninja]

uhhh
no mention of reflect? i'll just drop this here, it's a pretty damn good move on bro to surprise people who think booming on you is a reliable way to stop your sweep
[Gen 1] OU replay: The Idiot Ninja vs. FUCK LE WOLFPACK - Pokémon Showdown

 

[Disaster Area]

Is Reflect worth it over the already niche Withdraw?

guess it has niche but should it just go in OO? what do people think

 

[Enigami]

Probably just in OO mentioned as an alternative to the m9m Withdraw set. Both do similar things, but Reflect gets more done faster but can't build up. I think Reflect is is probably a bit better as Amnesia already provides paralysis speed drop amplification and Slowbro is already tanky enough that going past x2 Defense seems overkill.

 

[marcoasd]

Reflect has different purposes: Withdraw's main purpose was to beat other Slowbro teams (you Amnesia up and let your opponent do so, then start Withdrawing - so you get your defense up in the process): Ice Beam is the next step, though. Blizzard is actually an almost decent move vs Exeggutor/Zapdos which could be mentioned even if wild.
Reflect simply makes Slowbro a solo act.

Nowdays it's rare to see a Slowbro on both teams, and Reflect is a better option than Withdraw to gain armor. OO looks fair.

 

[Disaster Area]

Reflect is similar to Withdraw, but boosts its defense more after a single use. Because it has less PP than Withdraw, it doesn't give it an advantage versus other Slowbro, and of course Withdraw enables it to boost its Defense by several stages whilst Reflect can only provide a single boost, doubling Slowbro's Defense.

Added to OO

 

[Golden Gyarados]

Reflect is a better option than Withdraw to gain armor.

Is it though, really? If Reflect is a "better" option because it raises defense faster ... it's a pretty minuscule difference.

Tauros Body Slam vs. +1 Withdraw Slowbro: 58-69 (14.7 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
Tauros Body Slam vs. Slowbro through Reflect: 44-52 (11.1 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO

That extra ~3-4% damage decrease because you used Reflect instead is virtually meaningless in a practical sense.

Tauros Hyper Beam vs. +1 Withdraw Slowbro: 102-120 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Tauros Hyper Beam vs. Slowbro through Reflect: 76-90 (19.3 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO

~5-7% ... obviously a little better, but still nothing to write home about.

Snorlax Body Slam vs. +1 Withdraw Slowbro: 62-73 (15.7 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
Snorlax Body Slam vs. Slowbro through Reflect: 46-55 (11.7 - 13.9%) -- possible 8HKO

~4-5%

Snorlax Hyper Beam vs. +1 Withdraw Slowbro: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Snorlax Hyper Beam vs. Slowbro through Reflect: 81-96 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

~7-8%

Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. +1 Withdraw Slowbro: 188-222 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 88% chance to 2HKO
Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. Slowbro through Reflect: 141-166 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

~12-14%. This one is more impactful, but it all depends on how much you were chipped and what has the potential to revenge kill you anyway - so that's pretty situational.

Long story short, looking at the actual math on this, in practice that small boost in defense faster doesn't look like it's going to make any kind of difference in many match-ups. In an age where PP stalling out Rest Snorlaxes and Reflect Chanseys is getting more and more common, I'd rather have more PP, more max armor (up to +6), and a speed dropping effect by using Withdraw than having Reflect for practically negligible increased protection in 1 turn in exchange for a lower armor ceiling, fewer PP, and no speed dropping effect.

 

[marcoasd]

Well, the main gap is in SelfDestruct followed by HB (well, it looks fair to take that as the standard over Snorlax+Exeggutor booming consecutively) which sums up to almost 20% (yeah, that's surprisingly low).

Amnesia takes advantadge of the stacking drop glitch already, and there's literally no interest in PPstalling RestLaxes or Chanseys: Slowbro should KO both Chansey (quickly, especially if it's TBolt) and RestLax.
In case it's Amnesialax, Slowbro is at risk due to Snorlax's Blizzard.
I can see a point in PPStalling the specific TankLax moveset.

I think they can both be used depending on what you think you'll face - I still think that Reflect looks better for the general gameplan, Withdraw looks more of a counterpick even if the gap is more subtle than predicted.

 

[The Idiot Ninja]

The way I see it, the ONLY upside to Withdraw (outside of para speed drop which you can apply with amnesia anyway) is extremely niche PP stall situations (which by the way, reflect wins anyway vs twave bro, although he does come out a bit worse). If you're not in a PP stall situation, you're either only clicking Withdraw once, and taking extra damage for no reason at all (taking 10-20% less is huge, every health point matters when your opponent is all out trying to stop you. try telling that tauros staring at your +6, reflect up, 40% health slowbro that a 20% difference is 'surprisingly low'), or you're clicking Withdraw twice, which means you just wasted a turn compared to reflect, or you're clicking it even more times, which means you have enough free turns to win the game anyway.

Reflect is easily the superior move. OO for sure because it's not Thunder Wave, but far and away more viable than options like Withdraw and Ice Beam.

 

[marcoasd]

15% after factoring Tauros' HB isn't huge, and it's indeed surprising when you think of Selfdestruct as a move that can OHKO or almost OHKO most pokemon, including bulky ones - the point is that the whole piece of papers both parties wrote might just often result in Tauros trying to crit with Body Slam to OHKO (against withdraw Slowbro) or being forced to go for the HB crit to get the KO.
In that case, the relevant part is being unpara'd with Slowbro (so you can gain armor for sure before getting exploded on) moreso than having one move over the other.

I can see Reflect as a better move after switching into Snorlax (I don't know the exact calculation, but the sequence *body slam* + *body slam* (with one resulting in paralysis, where not already present) + *body slam vs +1 def slowbro* + *hyper beam vs +1 def slowbro* might result in a KO with just one FP if Slowbro is Withdraw but it won't in case it's Reflect)

 

[magic9mushroom]

Withdraw's draws over Reflect are:

1) You can PP-stall anything (the main cases I can think of are non-Ice Beam AmnesiaLax, Recover users* and the Bro ditto).
2) it does the speed-drop bug. Don't know too much about the usage of this myself, because it was after my time.

*Yes, with Psychic or paralysis you can break them anyway, but this way avoids burning half your PP. If they've got more than one, this could be relevant (I made a habit of doing this against unparalysed ReflectZam, because while far slower than bashing it down it's less risky). Obviously, not all Recover users will permit this.

No, they're not huge. Then again, Reflect's draws over Withdraw aren't that huge either, because even a single Withdraw is usually enough to discourage attempts to wear Slowbro down physically. They're both options.