GSC SleepTrap Vote and Discussion [Vote Closed]

[Isa]

ban sleeptrap
ban sleepperishtrap

 

[Roostur]

I can see where you're coming from, since this is the only gen where a restriction is required, but I'd argue that the existing complex ban clouds the issue and diverts attention from the fact that practically every competitive application of the move is cheesing the opponent rather than earning KOs. Since we're already used to this limitation that point is easy to ignore. In some ways it mirrors the discussion over on smogon surrounding bp. It's a tired analogy, but I'd bring up the case of Speed Boost Blaziken- bans were implemented on the basis of the strongest available set, not the fact that without Speed Boost Blaziken wasn't broken. After all, anyone can use a broken thing in a non-broken way, but that doesn't mean that thing isn't broken. Anyway a similar line of reasoning is in play here as in the case of Blaziken in that we shouldn't introduce complexity into our rulesets in order to avoid collateral, as it really is a terrible precedent to have. This is compounded by the fact that even after its limitation it's still arguably a problem.
I'm curious as to what you mean here, since it sounds to me like you're alluding to applications of trapping moves other than the usual Trap+Perish+pray for hax, which is both straightfoward to deal with and also what I personally have seen the majority of the time that I've encountered trapping moves.
Lapras isn't something I'd even considered, and Missy I don't think is threatening enough. Jynx, Gengar and Smeargle I think are worth examining though. Gengar is probably the least problematic of the three in that it has the greatest issue fitting ML on its set, if it directly attacks it has trouble with some walls and to run the set you suggested is unreliable and gimmicky. An attacking set would really want Raikou gone and Lax and TTar compromised in some way in order to be effective. Also Steelix is an issue. So I guess Gengar's a bit of a stretch to call OP. Jynx on the other hand I think is much more threatening, it gives up practically nothing to fit ML onto its standard set and has the offensive firepower to KO a lot of things in a reasonable span of time. Even Raikou faces a 4HKO, only some bulky waters and Lax are major obstacles to it, and even the bulky waters run into issues with not dealing enough damage or potentially getting forced to Restloop and/or getting screwed by luck. I gotta go, I'll add more on Smeargle later because I think it's totally obnoxious and easily the worst issue

The most honest way I've seen mean look used is during a battle between conflict and shake it up. Conflict laid spikes down with cloyster and shakeitup sent in starmie to rapid spin. Conflict sent in umbreon. Starmie did not want to get pursuited so I think it used thunderwave instead of switching out. Well turns out conflict wasn't using the standard pursuit umbreon and mean looked instead, then he baton passed to zapdos and got an easy kill. Does that take skill? Is that broken? I mean... you have to surprise your opponent for it work. If people agree that that is broken then I will agree that trap moves should be banned. Because that is as honest as mean look gets. There is no more honest way to use it really. I don't really mind if it gets banned or not.

 

[magic9mushroom]

The thing about ML is that it doesn't so much get kills in practice as force defensive plays and team choices. Misdreavus might not get a kill when it comes in on Lax, but that Lax is running scared. Pursuit + TrapPass Umbreon forces stuff to actually take the doubled Pursuit rather than staying in and healing. And if you build a team without a phazer Missy and Umbreon kill you (as does ThunderMissy if you have Skarm as your only phazer).

So, like CurseLax, you rarely see ML actually kill stuff without hax, but that's mostly because (like CurseLax) its offensive potential is largely neutralised by the metagame, not because it's useless without hax. It's not RBY Dig/Fly.

 

[Bedschibaer]

Ban SleepPerishTrap

 

[Conflict]

I'm curious as to what you mean here, since it sounds to me like you're alluding to applications of trapping moves other than the usual Trap+Perish+pray for hax, which is both straightfoward to deal with and also what I personally have seen the majority of the time that I've encountered trapping moves.

Yeah well confuse + perishtrap is used the most but is in my opinion a cop-out that relies on the player lucking out in order to have a viable moveset. And chances are that more often than not it fails. Cray-Psong-Missy rarely gets even one kill and if it does get one it was just 1 kill at the end of the day.
Cray-Missy can also be pressured very well with offensive mons if you lack a phazer. Pokemon such as Exeggutor or Marowak pressure Missy heavily so much so that it tends to become a liability even if you rely on confuse-cheese as your only viable offensive option.

There are alot of competitive uses of trapping moves that make the use of them meaningful and skill inducing. For example one could equip is his Gengar with Mean Look and Explosion to ensure that Gengar will be able to blow up on key targets instead of the intended target switching out predicting the Explosion. One could trap Mons with Gengar that cant hurt you back and waste their PP - essentially making them a nonthreat (see: Miltank, Snorlax).
And there are defined drawbacks to trapping in this gen. You give up 1 entire moveslot just to trap stuff. That is a HUGE drawback considering that the Pokemon that switch into your trapping Mon most likely counter it and therefore lessen the impact of the trapping. In the end trapping comes down to making meaningful choices and setting it up right.

Personally i only feel like confuse/sleep + trapping is skill-less because it doesnt allow for player interaction - all it does is force luckbased scenarios where noone knows the outcome. I also consider running confusion + Perishtrap as bad tho because it is more likely to fail than to succeed so you are just giving up one moveslot on your Pokemon for a chance to remove an opponents mon. And a chance is still that - a chance, no guarantee. Take for example Umbreon.
The common trapping set is: Mean Look, Baton Pass, Moon Light with a 4th move. ML+BP are essential for trapping and therefore required. Moon Light can be seen as a requirement of some kind because it enables Umbreon to fulfill its duty of trapping (you cant trap if you are about to die to the next attack) aswell as keeping it healthy throughout the game. Now the last move is where you make your choice. Personally i much prefer moves like Charm, Curse or Pursuit there because they provide value even when your trapping fails. One could use confuse ray/sand attack here but then you give up all utility Umbreon has for the offchance of trapping something reyling on some shitty odds.

And just to show you that trapping is competitive, fun and skill-rewarding if used without those drawbacks ill add some replays of mine that i ended up using a trapping move in (SPL):
[Gen 2] OU replay: giara vs. Conflict - Pokémon Showdown - ML-Umbreon managed to remove the spiker of my opponents team therefore giving me spikes control.
Battle between Jorgen and Conflict is underway! Tier: GSC OU Mode: Singles - Pastebin.com - trapped Zapdos early on for a kill on it and then managed to trap Nidoking later on to seal the deal (turn 143). This showcases how good trapping can be if used in the right moments.
Battle between Picollo and Conflict is underway! Tier: GSC OU Mode: Singles - Pastebin.com - trapped Gengar to lessen its impact, Gengar chose to rather explode then be used as set-up-fodder.
[Gen 2] OU replay: Alice ☾ arroll vs. Conflict - Pokémon Showdown - trapped Starmie here and removed its spinning capabilities. Pursuit couldve done the same just wouldve taken 100 turns alone just to trap starmie and run it out of Recover.

I think what these replays/Logs show is that trapping is a good measurement of skill and rewards the better player if used without sleep/confusion. And if you are using it with confusion (which isnt an option to ban) you are gutting your own chances/moveslots for an offchance of luck basically admitting that you are not good enough to beat your opponent in a real battle.
I feel like trapping in general without assistance of luck (confuse) is a strategy most likely to fail unless you have considerable experience in GSC. So far the only that ive seen consistently use trapping to high success without any BS tactics has been myself (yeah self-praise ik). Anyways trapping is fun and useful and important so that certain niche-playstyles/mon can be useful (see: Missy - a mon that does nothing in a lot of battles but can singlehandedly win a battle if maneuvered right/up against the right team).

Conclusion: Trapping is useful, incites threat and forces answers (like any mon/strategy) but can be overcome with good predicts and only made useful by those in the first place. Trapping should stay. Luckbased trapping (exspecially sleep because it has a lower % to fail than confusion) should be banned.

 

[Roostur]

Yeah well confuse + perishtrap is used the most but is in my opinion a cop-out that relies on the player lucking out in order to have a viable moveset. And chances are that more often than not it fails. Cray-Psong-Missy rarely gets even one kill and if it does get one it was just 1 kill at the end of the day.
Cray-Missy can also be pressured very well with offensive mons if you lack a phazer. Pokemon such as Exeggutor or Marowak pressure Missy heavily so much so that it tends to become a liability even if you rely on confuse-cheese as your only viable offensive option.

There are alot of competitive uses of trapping moves that make the use of them meaningful and skill inducing. For example one could equip is his Gengar with Mean Look and Explosion to ensure that Gengar will be able to blow up on key targets instead of the intended target switching out predicting the Explosion. One could trap Mons with Gengar that cant hurt you back and waste their PP - essentially making them a nonthreat (see: Miltank, Snorlax).
And there are defined drawbacks to trapping in this gen. You give up 1 entire moveslot just to trap stuff. That is a HUGE drawback considering that the Pokemon that switch into your trapping Mon most likely counter it and therefore lessen the impact of the trapping. In the end trapping comes down to making meaningful choices and setting it up right.

Personally i only feel like confuse/sleep + trapping is skill-less because it doesnt allow for player interaction - all it does is force luckbased scenarios where noone knows the outcome. I also consider running confusion + Perishtrap as bad tho because it is more likely to fail than to succeed so you are just giving up one moveslot on your Pokemon for a chance to remove an opponents mon. And a chance is still that - a chance, no guarantee. Take for example Umbreon.
The common trapping set is: Mean Look, Baton Pass, Moon Light with a 4th move. ML+BP are essential for trapping and therefore required. Moon Light can be seen as a requirement of some kind because it enables Umbreon to fulfill its duty of trapping (you cant trap if you are about to die to the next attack) aswell as keeping it healthy throughout the game. Now the last move is where you make your choice. Personally i much prefer moves like Charm, Curse or Pursuit there because they provide value even when your trapping fails. One could use confuse ray/sand attack here but then you give up all utility Umbreon has for the offchance of trapping something reyling on some shitty odds.

And just to show you that trapping is competitive, fun and skill-rewarding if used without those drawbacks ill add some replays of mine that i ended up using a trapping move in (SPL):
[Gen 2] OU replay: giara vs. Conflict - Pokémon Showdown - ML-Umbreon managed to remove the spiker of my opponents team therefore giving me spikes control.
Battle between Jorgen and Conflict is underway! Tier: GSC OU Mode: Singles - Pastebin.com - trapped Zapdos early on for a kill on it and then managed to trap Nidoking later on to seal the deal (turn 143). This showcases how good trapping can be if used in the right moments.
Battle between Picollo and Conflict is underway! Tier: GSC OU Mode: Singles - Pastebin.com - trapped Gengar to lessen its impact, Gengar chose to rather explode then be used as set-up-fodder.
[Gen 2] OU replay: Alice ☾ arroll vs. Conflict - Pokémon Showdown - trapped Starmie here and removed its spinning capabilities. Pursuit couldve done the same just wouldve taken 100 turns alone just to trap starmie and run it out of Recover.

I think what these replays/Logs show is that trapping is a good measurement of skill and rewards the better player if used without sleep/confusion. And if you are using it with confusion (which isnt an option to ban) you are gutting your own chances/moveslots for an offchance of luck basically admitting that you are not good enough to beat your opponent in a real battle.
I feel like trapping in general without assistance of luck (confuse) is a strategy most likely to fail unless you have considerable experience in GSC. So far the only that ive seen consistently use trapping to high success without any BS tactics has been myself (yeah self-praise ik). Anyways trapping is fun and useful and important so that certain niche-playstyles/mon can be useful (see: Missy - a mon that does nothing in a lot of battles but can singlehandedly win a battle if maneuvered right/up against the right team).

Conclusion: Trapping is useful, incites threat and forces answers (like any mon/strategy) but can be overcome with good predicts and only made useful by those in the first place. Trapping should stay. Luckbased trapping (exspecially sleep because it has a lower % to fail than confusion) should be banned.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I don't see any good arguments to this being made. And honestly idk why we are talking about banning something like mean look when we have a pokemon in ou that is so good that you are obligated to put him on every competitive team and is better than certain pokemon in uber. A POKEMON THAT IS IN OU IS BETTER THAN SOME POKEMON IN THE UBER TIER. Before we talk about any other ban, that ban is the one we should talk about.

 

[Ortheore]

ok, that was a good post from Conflict, made lots of good points. I'm not convinced to switch my position entirely, since the simplicity of a trapping ban I think is optimal and I'm still not satisfied that HaxTrap can be overlooked, however between that post and Enigami/m9m's point about sleep clause I won't be arguing against SleepTrap.

SleepPerishTrap on the other hand, is an abomination of a complex ban. What does SleepTrap bring to the table that we should implement such a horrific complex ban to preserve it? I don't think anyone voting for it has justified their vote in any way save for Bomber, and I didn't think his reasoning was all that strong tbh

 

[Disaster Area]

my vote:
1. SleepTrap

 

[magic9mushroom]

I pretty much agree with all of this. I don't see any good arguments to this being made. And honestly idk why we are talking about banning something like mean look when we have a pokemon in ou that is so good that you are obligated to put him on every competitive team and is better than certain pokemon in uber. A POKEMON THAT IS IN OU IS BETTER THAN SOME POKEMON IN THE UBER TIER. Before we talk about any other ban, that ban is the one we should talk about.

This is a vote on a global ban for the GSC generation. Technically, it should come before decisions of tiering. In particular, whether Misdreavus is possible-ban-from-Uber category, OU or UU-at-best depends entirely on this vote (which then has knock-on effects on those metagames).

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Ban SleepPerishTrap
Ban SleepTrap

Former is the broken option. Latter removes a niche option from Gar/Jynx. Trapping moves add a competitive element to stall and can be used on offensive builds to effect - positive contribution to meta.

 

[Ortheore]

Ban SleepPerishTrap
Ban SleepTrap

Former is the broken option. Latter removes a niche option from Gar/Jynx. Trapping moves add a competitive element to stall and can be used on offensive builds to effect - positive contribution to meta.

A niche option on Gar and Jynx? That warrants such a repugnant deviation from good tiering practices? Furthermore how on earth is sleeptrapping remotely healthy? The strategy inherently relies on stripping the opponent of literally all meaningful counterplay and hoping they don't get lucky and recover before you can KO them or bp out or w/e. We implement sleep clause for exactly this reason, why should it not extend to cover sleep trap

Edit: sorry if I came across a bit strongly

 

[Roostur]

A niche option on Gar and Jynx? That warrants such a repugnant deviation from good tiering practices? Furthermore how on earth is sleeptrapping remotely healthy? The strategy inherently relies on stripping the opponent of literally all meaningful counterplay and hoping they don't get lucky and recover before you can KO them or bp out or w/e. We implement sleep clause for exactly this reason, why should it not extend to cover sleep trap

I think he might of been talking about only trapping moves, not sleep trap. That's how I read it anyway.

 

[Ortheore]

Hey everyone if you're voting for multiple options can you please clarify what your preferences are or if they're equal? I've been counting the first option listed as the primary vote but it's really ambiguous so yeah

 

[Mr.378]

Ban SleepTrap

 

[stargirl]

Ban SleepPerishTrap

 

[Huston]

Ban SleepPerishTrap
Do Not Ban SleepTrap

 

[Conflict]

im impartial to both options.

Sleepperishtrap should be banned for sure because its broken. Sleeptrap is an extension of that and i dont mind banning it aswell. There are some fringe-cases like Sleep-ML-Jynx or -Smeargle which can be stupid to fight against but are more or less just gimmicks.

Generally said just ban sleepperishtrap for sure and ban sleeptrap if that fits in better with PP's tiering.

 

[Ortheore]

SleepPerishTrap wins 9-8. Thank you all for participating

 

[Enigami]

Question: Would partial trapping be considered a part of the ban? Lapras and Politoed can theoretically use Whirlpool to trap their opponent and have access to a sleeping move (Sing for Lapras / Hypnosis for Politoed) + Perish Trap.

 

[Disaster Area]

Question: Would partial trapping be considered a part of the ban? Lapras and Politoed can theoretically use Whirlpool to trap their opponent and have access to a sleeping move (Sing for Lapras / Hypnosis for Politoed) + Perish Trap.

no