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GSC SleepTrap Vote and Discussion [Vote Closed]

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Ortheore, Dec 29, 2016.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Hello everyone, this thread is for voting and discussion of what to do about trapping moves in GSC.

    There are multiple options available for you to choose:
    · Ban SleepPerishTrap
    · Ban SleepTrap
    · Ban trapping moves
    · No ban

    Banning trapping moves entails banning the moves Mean Look and Spider Web. SleepTrap means no pokemon is allowed to have the aforementioned moves and a move capable of inflicting sleep on the same set (for instance, Mean Look + Lovely Kiss would not be permitted). SleepPerishTrap means that no pokemon is allowed to have all of: a trapping move, a sleep-inducing move, and the move Perish Song on the same set.

    To vote, simply post your choice in bold text. Additionally, you have the option of ranking the options in order of preference, such that if your first choice finishes with the fewest votes, your vote will be transferred to your second choice and so on

    This vote is currently open to all who sign up for the upcoming GSC season, or have played in previous GSC Seasons. There may be additional restrictions implemented later.

    One last note is that fully re-doing GSC 1U is not on the table at present. If you wish to discuss that proposition, please do so in the thread here.

    This thread will be closed and the vote finalised when GSC 1U Master Tournament #19 begins - January 9th.

    Ortheore: T>ST>N>SPT
    Snugs315: SPT>ST
    Contact: SPT>ST
    Hodor: ST
    Jame$ G: N
    Roostur: ST
    Conflict: SPT=ST
    Enigami: ST>T
    Bomber: SPT>ST
    Lutra: T
    M Dragon: SPT
    Isa: ST>SPT
    Bedschibaer: SPT
    Disaster Area: ST
    Texas Cloverleaf: SPT>ST
    Mr.378: ST
    Huston: SPT
    Stargirl: SPT

    SleepPerishTrap: 9*
    SleepTrap: 7*
    Trap: 2
    None: 1

    *received equal preference from one or more players
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  2. Snugs315

    Snugs315 Member

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    Ban SleepPerishTrap
    Ban SleepTrap
     
  3. Contact

    Contact Under The Sea Member

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    Ban SleepPerishTrap
    Ban Sleep Trap
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Voting in proxy for HODOR since he isn't automatically logged in and we decided it was ok to just do it over discord.

    Screenshot from 2016-12-29 03-18-39.png
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    To clarify, I'm voting for banning trapping moves entirely, with SleepTrap second. No ban I think is a terrible idea, but I also think SleepPerishTrap is an appalling option.

    It's an absurdly complex ban, going to absolutely moronic lengths to preserve a tactic that is still totally obnoxious. The prospect of Smeargle bping as it pleases against a helpless foe isn't skill, it's cheese. Also there's Jynx/Gengar/Missy, which are problematic in their own rights but Smeargle's just terrible.

    Although it's my second option, I believe SleepTrap also should be left in the dust in favour of a simple ban on trapping moves. This kills two birds with one stone, as it simplifies the ruleset and eliminates a strategy that in practice is little more than RNG cheesing. Ultimately, that's what PerishTrap boils down to, hoping their phazer will make it through confusion and your Protects or whatever. In a previous discussion it got compared to freezes in RBY, which is an interesting analogy to make, albeit flawed because PerishTrap is able to further stack the odds with paralysis support. Even with that to the side the question remains; is this really something we want in a respectable metagame?
     
  6. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    No ban
     
  7. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    A ban on trapping moves? You mean just flat out banning mean look and spider web? I don't agree. There is nothing broken about those moves by themselves. Mean look + perish song maybe should be banned. Mean look + confuse ray + protect + perish song is just a more unreliable way to sleep perish trap. Doesn't work as often but it is effectively the same when it does. BAN SLEEP TRAP
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2016
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I'd advise probably to play a few test games like this first before voting then, at least?
     
  9. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Ban SleepTrap
    Ban trapping moves


    There was a discussion about Mega Gengar on Smogon that made a good point about sleeping moves combined with trapping, namely that it violates the spirit of Sleep Clause by locking an opponent in and continually putting them to sleep until they're eliminated, then doing the same with the next Pokemon. Mean Look / Spider Web + Sleep has more counterplay compared to the trapping abilities, but bottom line I feel it still qualifies as violating Sleep Clause and should probably go. Possibly Wrap/Whirpool/etc. + Sleep too, since you could theoretically SleepTrap temporarily with Whirlpool+Sing Lapras or Wrap+Spore Smeargle. However unreliable and temporary as it may be, it's still a work-around that could be abused to still Sleep(Perish)Trap.

    I'm not sure about banning trapping moves, but it's better than the other two options.

    SleepPerishTrap as stated by Ortheore is kinda ridiculous and is a complex ban that isn't exactly something that could be covered under Sleep Clause.
    No ban on sleep trapping would just invite annoying Gengar/Misdreavus cheese, and as stated above violates the spirit of Sleep Clause.
     
  10. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    lol. I know it is cheap and dumb but I really want to use it. It'd be fun. James g and me would probably lose the vote but I'll reluctantly edit my post anyway for the sake of a balanced tournament :p . What is the everyone's view on hp legends? Is there any debate or does everyone agree that it is fine?
     
    Jame$ G likes this.
  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    pretty sure noone wants hp legends, and it's an absurd rule anyway that doesn't even address the biggest potentially considered broken stuff in gsc (e.g. snorlax)
    You can use it without having it be the standard though :p

    I think Jame$ has the experience with most / all variants being proposed though and knows what one he prefers lol, but you should play around for a bit before making your decision is all. Also you're not mandated to vote: if you don't feel experienced enough about GSC then I'd say don't worry if u don't vote (but u have every right to vote if u choose to take it)
     
    Jame$ G likes this.
  12. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    No it is the only gen I play. I know it extremely well. Sleep perish trap is dumb. Misdreavus with mean look, confuse ray, and perish song is dumb, let alone a misdreavus with hypnosis and mean look perish trap.

    Yeah, lax being gone would be amazing. Keeping him just because it has always been like that is not something I agree with. And a lot of people I play with on pokemon showdown and myself have been using raikou with reflect instead of hidden power and grounds are so much better when raikou doesn't have hidden power. I love playing against electrics that don't have hp. Ground types become so much better and useful. Idk why hp electrics were ever unbanned.
     
  13. Conflict

    Conflict Member

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    · Ban SleepPerishTrap
    · Ban SleepTrap

    Both options are fine.

    Banning trappings moves in general isnt. Using trapping moves and their subsequent handling separates the good players from the bad ones. If you are good you should only very rarely lose to trapping.
    I also strongly believe that confuse+trapping is a retarded strategy that is super unreliable and should never be used anyways because it will fail more often then it does work.
     
    Bomber likes this.
  14. Jame$ G

    Jame$ G Member

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    Haha personally I don't really have a preference either way. With evasion clause enacted I don't see many reasons to give perish trap that premise; but I don't see many reasons not to either. People say gen 2 is slow; sleep trap is something that could speed it up albeit at the cost of luck being a bigger factor. Sleep trap is far from invincible tbh; sleep talk Raikou Lax & Houndoom give them a bad day, counter traping, encore Alakazam.
     
  15. Bomber

    Bomber Host Emeritus

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    · Ban SleepPerishTrap
    · Ban SleepTrap*

    *never used a SleepTrap strategy in my gsc career. but, maybe, a gar with hypnosis/ml/nightmare/explosion or dbond.. could be annoying. honestly there are better ways to use a gar. same for jynx who can abuse of that set. lapras has whirpool/sing; missy hypno/ml (viable for beat skarm? ml/hypnosis/tbolt.. skarm isnt my safe switch into missy anywhere); smeargle! ml/spore/ bpass / drum or agility or or spikes or superfang or whatyouwant. (you can manage it, as you manage all bpass's smeargle)

    Am i simply ignoring the biggest problem? someone can explain me why this should be considered threatening?
     
  16. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Apparently I don't get a vote, so:

    SleepTrap is a reasonable loophole patch in Sleep Clause. And no, I haven't even read the thing Enigami alluded to, I've been saying that for a while.

    Yes, a trapping ban is simpler, but it's just so obviously an intended game mechanic that I have serious reservations about throwing it down the drain. Evasion and OHKO are one thing, but trapping has non-RNG uses.
     
  17. Lutra

    Lutra Site Founder Owner

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    Ban Trapping Moves
     
  18. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Which is why I never understood why misdreavus is ou. Dragonite, charizard, golem, quagsire, alakazam, celfable, jynx, donphan, kangashan, maganium, muk, tentacruel, will usually always contribute more to a team than misdreavus does most of the time but they are BL and misdreavus gets to be ou? I never understood that.
     
  19. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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  20. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I can see where you're coming from, since this is the only gen where a restriction is required, but I'd argue that the existing complex ban clouds the issue and diverts attention from the fact that practically every competitive application of the move is cheesing the opponent rather than earning KOs. Since we're already used to this limitation that point is easy to ignore. In some ways it mirrors the discussion over on smogon surrounding bp. It's a tired analogy, but I'd bring up the case of Speed Boost Blaziken- bans were implemented on the basis of the strongest available set, not the fact that without Speed Boost Blaziken wasn't broken. After all, anyone can use a broken thing in a non-broken way, but that doesn't mean that thing isn't broken. Anyway a similar line of reasoning is in play here as in the case of Blaziken in that we shouldn't introduce complexity into our rulesets in order to avoid collateral, as it really is a terrible precedent to have. This is compounded by the fact that even after its limitation it's still arguably a problem.
    I'm curious as to what you mean here, since it sounds to me like you're alluding to applications of trapping moves other than the usual Trap+Perish+pray for hax, which is both straightfoward to deal with and also what I personally have seen the majority of the time that I've encountered trapping moves.
    Lapras isn't something I'd even considered, and Missy I don't think is threatening enough. Jynx, Gengar and Smeargle I think are worth examining though. Gengar is probably the least problematic of the three in that it has the greatest issue fitting ML on its set, if it directly attacks it has trouble with some walls and to run the set you suggested is unreliable and gimmicky. An attacking set would really want Raikou gone and Lax and TTar compromised in some way in order to be effective. Also Steelix is an issue. So I guess Gengar's a bit of a stretch to call OP. Jynx on the other hand I think is much more threatening, it gives up practically nothing to fit ML onto its standard set and has the offensive firepower to KO a lot of things in a reasonable span of time. Even Raikou faces a 4HKO, only some bulky waters and Lax are major obstacles to it, and even the bulky waters run into issues with not dealing enough damage or potentially getting forced to Restloop and/or getting screwed by luck. I gotta go, I'll add more on Smeargle later because I think it's totally obnoxious and easily the worst issue
     

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