GSC OU Shiny tiering

[Enigami]

Regular:

Snorlax BST: 540 - Zapdos BST: 580 - Raikou BST: 580 - Ho-Oh BST: 680 - Celebi BST: 600
Hidden Powers: All

Shiny:

Snorlax BST: 513 - Zapdos BST: 553/545 - Raikou BST: 553/545 - Ho-Oh BST: 653 - Celebi BST: 573
Hidden Powers: Grass & Dragon

-An example of the differences between Shiny and Regular Pokemon.


Something I noticed when working on implementing proper DVs on Showdown's teambuilder was that while Shiny Pokemon normally are merely cosmetic, in GSC they are all locked at 10 Speed, 10 Defense, 10 Special, 2/3/6/7/10/11/14/15 Attack, and 0/8 HP. I realized this affects Shinies in two ways.

First, the only Hidden Powers they can use are HP Grass and HP Dragon, not exactly the most desirable Hidden Powers. Second, they effectively have 5 less base Speed, Defense, Special Attack and Special Defense, and between 7 (HP Dragon) and 15 (HP Grass) less base HP, a total of 27-35 less BST than their counterparts.

This makes me wonder, could Shinies be tiered separately like Formes in later generations? They effectively have a different movepool and BST than their non-Shiny counterparts, and most are visually distinctive as well. GSC 1U is unlikely to be affected by this (unless it was decided that Shiny Ho-Oh could be dropped or something), but this could have an interesting effect on lower tiers. Some Pokemon that are overpowered in a tier might end up being balanced by the BST reduction and loss of coverage from the HP restriction.

Other proposals I've seen, such as the 'HP Electric Legends' ban or unbanning Ho-Oh or Celebi could have new alternatives with this. Raikou/Zapdos could be banned while their Shinies are left, essentially reducing their BST a little while also severely limiting their Hidden Power options without making a complex ban, and Shiny Ho-Oh/Celebi might be softened to the point that they could be handled sufficiently. I remember seeing discussion about a Snorlax ban on Smogon a while back as well, so perhaps banning regular Snorlax and keeping the slightly nerfed Shiny Snorlax (doesn't lose anything important, only really loses a little bit of bulk and SpA) would be worth taking a look at.

Very soon I'll be submitting an improved teambuilder for Pokemon Showdown that greatly improves teambuilding for RBY and GSC, and most importantly properly handles RBY/GSC DVs, Hidden Powers, and Shiny/Female's effects on DVs. Pokemon Online already properly does GSC Shinies (a bit less intuitively than what Showdown will have, but still works), so between that and my Showdown changes there shouldn't be any worry about it being implemented on the simulator side of things.

One issue brought up by Lutra is that it could clutter up banlists, however this could be solved by putting a symbol after a listed Pokemon's name in the banlist to indicate that the Shiny is not banned from the tier, saving a lot of space, or alternatively the symbol would indicate that both the Pokemon and its Shiny are banned.

Another issue would be having to retest the Shiny versions of Pokemon belonging to the tier above, although compared to testing all 721+Megas+Formes in later gens, 251 x 2 wouldn't be as big of a deal especially since Shinies are directly outclassed to start with, and a lot of Shinies are from NFEs.

Now for discussion... Are Shinies' altered appearance, reduced BST, and loss of all HPs but HP Grass and Dragon enough to separate them? Would you be interested in seeing Shinies tiered separately? What other issues could there be with separated tiering for Shinies?

 

[Ortheore]

This is a very interesting proposal.

My initial knee-jerk reaction is to dismiss this as silly, but the more I think on it the more I realise that there simply isn't much of a reason why they aren't equivalent to formes in later gens.

Cluttering banlists is something to consider, since literally every pokemon that gets used ever would be tiered separately from its shiny form due to being directly outclassed. As Enigami said, for each xU tier you'd only have to note instances where the shiny form is allowed but not the normal. Looking at xP, I think you'd be looking at exploiting our tiering system's ability to allow different variations on a banlist- so if you have 2U, then 2P might be the shiny version of 1U, while 2Q might exclude all pokemon from 1U regardless of shiny or not, and just be for normal pokemon that break 2U.

Personally I'd be fine with experimenting with this and seeing where it takes us.

Like I was planning on hosting a OU+Cele+Hooh tour in the near future, but idk I guess I could try an full ubers tour but with Lugia+Mew+M2 limited to shiny forms. Probably wouldn't make any difference to the state of the metagame, but it's better to know these things first-hand rather than talk about them right?

Edit 2: I've kinda done a bit of a backflip on this. Are there any instances where a form is directly inferior in every way to another one? Off the top of my head, they are all distinctive or superficial. I guess gen4 Rotom? This is treading a very fine line between imposing otherwise silly restrictions and something genuinely different.

"if you're tiering shinies separately, why not tier event pokemon differently?" Could be any parameter there. I don't really believe that question since I suspect it's a terrible argument and potential slippery slope fallacy, but I just thought I'd throw it out there and see what people have to say

Edit 3: Nope gen 4 Rotom isn't fully outclassed by Rotom-A. It comes close though, 5 points of speed is all Rotom has over its forms

Edit 4: Technically Keldeo and Keldeo-R are separate forms, where the only difference is that Keldeo-R has Secret Sword

 

[Isa]

can we unban 1 DV mew in rby ou too

and 1 DV tauros/snorlax/exeggutor/chansey etc. in rby bl/uu, idk what you call it


"ban speed boost blaziken but keep blaze blaziken"

 

[Enigami]

"if you're tiering shinies separately, why not tier event pokemon differently?" Could be any parameter there. I don't really believe that question since I suspect it's a terrible argument and potential slippery slope fallacy, but I just thought I'd throw it out there and see what people have to say

Except the big thing for me is the visual identification. When you see a Shiny Pokemon in GSC, you know exactly what you're facing. When you see an Event Pokemon, it appears exactly the same as the regular Pokemon. Otherwise, I'd possibly advocate separating Event Pokemon as well. For example, if Eruption Heatran was visually separate from normal Heatrans, you'd instantly know its locked into a Quiet nature and has access to Eruption and that would be enough for me to want to separate it.

can we unban 1 DV mew in rby ou too

and 1 DV tauros/snorlax/exeggutor/chansey etc. in rby bl/uu, idk what you call it


"ban speed boost blaziken but keep blaze blaziken"

Except that Shinies are nothing like those examples.

The '1 DV Pokemon' is not enforceable by any simulator, and outside of saving replays/logs and carefully measuring damages and such you'd have no way to be certain that the players in a given battle limited their Pokemon as they should. Pokemon set to 1 DVs cannot be distinguished from Pokemon set to 15. Additionally, you have the issue now that you could call for other very arbitrary changes in DVs such as perhaps 10 DV Rhydon for RBY 2U, 9 DV Rhydon for RBY 3U, etc.

If you saw a Shiny Raikou in GSC, you'd know that your Exeggutor walls it. If you saw a Shiny Snorlax in GSC, you'd instantly know your Steelix would be faster if both Pokemon are at +0 Speed.

In Pokemon Showdown (with a minor adjustment to account for Shinies) you would know that they're different just by hovering over the Shiny and seeing the speed stat range. Snorlax & Steelix can has a minimum speed of 65 and a maximum of 158, while Shiny Snorlax & Steelix has between 85 - 148, meaning you would know that your Steelix with full Speed outspeeds Shiny Snorlax without needing any prior knowledge of GSC Shiny differences.

If you saw a Cloyster in against your Victreebel in RBY 2U, you'd have no idea that your Victreebel outspeeds it unless you had prior knowledge from some thread or something that Cloyster in 2U is using 1 DVs, and if played on current Showdown or Online you'd have no idea if your opponent is even obeying the DV limitations.


For 'ban Speed Boost Blaziken', that's a complex ban, and if I recall the main reasoning for not entertaining the possibility of doing that was the slippery slope issue, especially since there are so many ways one could make a complex ban to make a Pokemon balanced for a tier. You'd have people going "If Blaze Blaziken is okay, why not Torrent Greninja? Flame Body Talonflame wouldn't be broken in UU, why not allow it there? Mega-Mawile without Swords Dance would be balanced in OU" and so on. Regular/Shiny splits would be comparatively simple bans no different than banning a Forme in later generations, and are far more easily handled compared to complex bans due to only having 1 valid set of changes from the base Pokemon.

I'd prefer Isa that you had actual arguments instead of just trying to equate it with objectively bad banning practices.

 

[Disaster Area]

Bit of a crude way to put it Isa, and I partially agree (I understand where the arguement is coming from).

Anyway here's my personal policy on 'formes' and when to tier them separately:

1) Do you have the ability to change forme in battle?
Yes - Any forme which requires another forme of Pokémon in order to be brought into battle (e.g. think megas) then that forme can only be brought in a tier where the base forme is legal. Base forme here defines the forme which is brought into battle initially.
No - move onto next question.
2) Is there a change in typing between the formes?
Yes - then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - move onto next question.
3) Do they have different (base?) stats?
Yes - then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - Do not tier them separately.

Notable things that aren't enough for a forme to be tiered separately: Exclusive moves (e.g. Keldeo-Resolute, Rotom-A in Gen 4, Genesect's variously typed Techno Blast's), different name (Genesect-Douse, Burn etc., Keldeo-Resolute etc.), different aesthetics (vivillion, pikachu in gen 6 for example), ability differences [blaze blaziken, torrent greninja, etc.), events (eruption heatran for example as enigami said).

I think really the technicality is: Does shiny vs not shiny count as a forme change in GSC and overall?

What is a forme?

If we did consider shinies formes, then it satifies the criteria I listed, so they would be tiered separately, HOWEVER I think that if a Pokémon is a member of an xU tier then the shiny formes are members as well.

I think also since Shiny would not be tiered as a forme in any other generation (there are no non-aesthetic differences), deciding upon whether shiny could be considered a forme or not would only affect GSC, and the result (either positive or negative) would have nothing to do with other generations. That being said, I feel that other generations lacking any difference between shiny and non-shiny is evidence of nintendo's intentions for shinies not to be considered formes.

This being said it would be fun to have a tour with shiny versions of lax/kou/zap/celebi/ho-oh permitted maybe..

 

[Enigami]

That being said, I feel that other generations lacking any difference between shiny and non-shiny is evidence of nintendo's intentions for shinies not to be considered formes.

Nintendo's intentions don't really mean anything for our or anyone else's tiering though. If players had based decisions on Nintendo's assumed intentions instead of basing it on actual gameplay, Pokemon such as Kyurem and Kyurem-Black would remain banned, Item Clause would be enforced, Singles would not be played from RSE onwards, and so on.

Focusing purely on GSC in actual gameplay, Shinies are straight up different from regular Pokemon and fulfill all of your requirements to tier them, with the only issue being that they aren't technically 'formes'.

Additionally, from our converstation on Skype:

[12:39:31 PM] Nathaniel Harris: "These variations all have differing sprites in the games and are recognized by the "forms" section of the Pokédex."
"In Generation V, the sprite displayed in the Pokédex can be changed upon reaching Mistralton City, even to a Shiny sprite, if it has been encountered"
...that suggests Shinies could qualify as a 'forme'?
[12:39:50 PM] George S. [Disaster Area]: perhaps but then again
[12:40:05 PM] George S. [Disaster Area]: Starting in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, every official different form has a name given by the Pokédex; however, Arceus, Genesect and Furfrou's alternate forms were not registered in the Pokédex prior to Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire.
[12:41:39 PM] Nathaniel Harris: Except I thought isn't Arceus forms tiered separately (although none of them would be balanced in ORAS OU)?
[12:41:53 PM] George S. [Disaster Area]: they are tiered separately in oras 1u
[12:42:02 PM] George S. [Disaster Area]: i'm just saying that the pokedex is
[12:42:06 PM] George S. [Disaster Area]: inconsistent

While the Pokedex isn't consistent, the bolded sections does make it possible that Shinies could qualify as 'formes', just not significant formes in future generations like with Keldeo and Genesect's formes.

 

[Disaster Area]

I think really the technicality is: Does shiny vs not shiny count as a forme change in GSC and overall?

What is a forme?

Some Pokémon have official major variations between individuals, known as alternate forms. These variations all have differing sprites in the games and are recognized by the "forms" section of the Pokédex.

Starting in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, every official different form has a name given by the Pokédex; however, Arceus, Genesect and Furfrou's alternate forms were not registered in the Pokédex prior to Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire. From Generation II to IV, whichever sprite is seen first will be the one displayed in the Pokédex by default; e.g., if West Sea Shellos was encountered first its sprite will appear in the Pokédex by default, whereas if East Sea Shellos was encountered first its sprite will. In Generation V, the sprite displayed in the Pokédex can be changed upon reaching Mistralton City, even to a Shiny sprite, if it has been encountered. In Generation VI, the sprite can be changed as long as the player has owned the Pokémon.

Source

I found this an useful place to get some information and begin some discussion. The Pokédex appears at first to have some merit to resolving this arguement, but soon into the passage we learn that the Pokédex does have cross-generational inconsistencies

If there's a visible difference between different Pokémon entities, that affects stats/movepool/etc. [features that affect a Pokémon in battle] then it is possible to define this as being 2 formes (must be of the same Pokémon [singular]), and therefore there is a consideration that these separate formes could be tiered differently. That being said, some Pokémon have different forms that have small to no effect on their competitive play - or the change is very minor aesthetically - and in these cases a decision should be made about whether to tier these differently. By this definition (feel free to try and create a better one) shinies, in only generation 2, are considered formes, as well as Keldeo-Resolute, the Genesect formes, etc. However, I feel for example with Rotom-A in DPP, Genesect formes, and Keldeo formes, that these should not be tiered differently, due to the fact that in the first case, the formes make little difference in battle, for the majority of battles; in the remaining cases, genesect's 'best sets' tend not to use any of its formes, all the formes effectively do for it is restrict itemslot, whilst with Keldeo it just restricts a moveslot for a move it never otherwise uses. In essence, by tiering these separately and allowing them into lower tiers you're allowing weirdly restricted Pokémon into lower tiers (essentially a moveslot or itemslot restriction, or no real restriction at all). So with Shinies, the question is: is the change significant enough that (in the way I suggested in my previous post) we should tier Shiny formes and regular formes differently? Previous decisions about tiering or not tiering formes differently should impact upon this decision.

I don't like creating definitions for already defined words (think of like in uncompetitive vs competitive discussions, you're trying to define words already in usage - even if some (most perhaps?) misuse the words) but in this case I can't realistically think of an alternative, and this definition more or less matches the definition in use (with shiny's being an undecided case, and with this definition, being considered a forme).

 

[Lilyhollow]

sort of off-topic but

Very soon I'll be submitting an improved teambuilder for Pokemon Showdown that greatly improves teambuilding for RBY and GSC

this sounds delicious, what improvements will there be?

 

[autumn leaves]

interesting discussion, don't really have a strong opinion but a few things;

dpp rotom is wholly outclassed by the appliance forms, the extra 5 speed is absolutely no reason to use it. you outrun jolly luke/modest zapdos/adamant gon/other rotom and that's cute but it is sooooo much weaker and loses soooo much bulk. I would sooner try to put some nu shit like magmortar (who actually is "decent" all things considered) kingler gabite or dd charizard on a team. I know quagsire and medicham are nu but eh.

regular keldeo uses secret sword. no idea if this is technically correct or whatever but that's how it's been for the 2+ years bw2's been out

 

[Disaster Area]

was getting mixed up x_x secret and sacred sword...


anyway keldeo and keldeo-R are effectively about as powerful (keldeo-R more powerful of course) but even w/o that move they're about as strong I mean

it's common sense why they should be tiered together even if I can't formalise the arguement or whatever this instant.

 

[Enigami]

I'm personally against tiering formes together. It makes sense for usage based tiering where it would split statistics and mess up tiering, but we're tiering by viability and each forme's viability wouldn't be the same as the others. Even if they are mostly the same, they aren't exactly the same.

Each DPP Rotom is still a separate forme, and depending on the meta certain Rotoms may be more viable than others. Most of the Smogon sets for Rotom usually list Overheat or Hydro Pump (and rarely Leaf Storm), suggesting Mow, Frost and Fan are less viable than Heat and Wash, and between those two it depends on whether Overheat or Hydro Pump is the most useful option available. Likely they would have similar viability, but their viability would be still be different. For example, Rotom-Frost means it can carry Blizzard but not the primary coverage Overheat or Hydro Pump, meaning its viability would probably be dependent on its use in hail teams.

The Arceus Plate-formes and Giratina-Origin are tiered separately from their base forme in ORAS 1U, and those force the use of a specific item, which to me makes not separating the Genesects inconsistent. The non-base Genesects each have unique coverage moves that depending on the meta would likely make a couple more preferable than the others, and would be less viable without being able to carry a useful item.

Keldeo-R is a bit of an edge case though, as it requires a specific move to gain and doesn't have any precedent to be tiered separately. Still, its presence instantly reveals that it runs Secret Sword, and base Keldeo reveals that it does not. The Smogon listed sets for Keldeo all list Secret Sword as a primary move, suggesting that base Keldeo would be less viable than Keldeo-R.

All other Pokemon with different formes such as the Meowstics or Pikachu and the Cosplay Pikachus I think should also be separated as well. If not for tiering, then atleast viability ranking. Likely this wouldn't affect anything (outside of perhaps Genesect), but I think each Pokemon and forme's viability should be explored.

sort of off-topic butthis sounds delicious, what improvements will there be?

Forgot that I haven't discussed this outside of chat discussions outside of this forum. I've started a thread here for my work on Pokemon Showdown.

 

[Disaster Area]

Rotom-A would be broke in the tier below, and the difference is small. Same w/ Keldeo, Genesect not so much but I'm unsure if Genesect would even abuse techno blast. That 'forme' is basically just an item restriction, I'm dubious about tiering it separately.

 

[Enigami]

Then each forme that falls below would be banned, as any broken Pokemon would be. Not tiering Genesect formes is quite arbitrary when Arceus Plate-formes and Giratina-Origin have the exact same item restriction, even if it was assumed they wouldn't use Techno Blast. Keldeo is one I do agree is a bit dubious though, its a weird move restriction that has no precedent.

 

[Disaster Area]

Giratina gets an ability change (that adds an immunity to it) and its stats change, with arceus its type changes. These changes are huge. An item restriction (when the best set in 1U is scarf, and any potential sets in lower tiers would be stuff like CB or shift gear, which don't run techno blast) is all the genesect formes are. Only time I've ever seen one used was Genesect-Douse and that was in smogon doubles, and it's a very rare thing to see. I mean genesect+drives in a lot of cases, I think (but of course cannot know for certain) would not even run Techno Blast. That being said I think Genesect is on the borderline - there's distinct differences that affect it competitively, but it doesn't change typing or stats, however there is an aesthetic difference, so really either option is possible - but we also have a catch-22 situation of not knowing whether they would be optimal, treated as itemless genesects, or whether there would be large techno blast usage. And if we do allow them to be separately tiered, then Keldeo could by the same logic (visible difference between formes, one forme is a restricted version of another - although in genesect's case there's also a benefit [opportunity cost: use of item slot for a 120 BP non-STAB move]. By my policy on formes though, neither keldeo nor genesect-drive should be tiered separately, or DPP Rotom-A. I mean at least my definition gives an objective means within which to draw the line. What are you proposing?

Each DPP Rotom is still a separate forme, and depending on the meta certain Rotoms may be more viable than others. Most of the Smogon sets for Rotom usually list Overheat or Hydro Pump (and rarely Leaf Storm), suggesting Mow, Frost and Fan are less viable than Heat and Wash, and between those two it depends on whether Overheat or Hydro Pump is the most useful option available. Likely they would have similar viability, but their viability would be still be different. For example, Rotom-Frost means it can carry Blizzard but not the primary coverage Overheat or Hydro Pump, meaning its viability would probably be dependent on its use in hail teams.

autumn leaves

how common/good is rotom-a running a specific move, and how often is that move not hydro pump?

 

[Enigami]

What I'd want would be is if there is visible difference between formes and those formes have competitive differences, they would be considered separate. We pretty much already have the same philosophy on formes, except that we disagree on whether moves count as a competitive difference. At the very least, they should be separated on viability rankings to make it clear that certain formes like the Genesect-Drives are not as good as Regular Genesect.

 

[Disaster Area]

Sure they can be separated on viability lists.

Anyway yeah you summed up our difference - I don't think merely access to or lack thereof to a move is enough to differentiate a form enough to warrant the possibility of different tieirng, whereas you do.

Anyone else have anything to say? I think we should discuss - since evidently we are in a disagreement (which is fine) and are unlikely to persuade eachother (which is also fine) and need to decide upon forum policy, then we should work out what we should ask, how we should vote upon it, and who can vote.

Imo:

Ask which framework for formes to use [My framework; My framework but altereted to include moves too; Abstain; Other], that anyone can vote, and that they can but do not need to include reasoning in their voting post, and the vote could be open for one week.

 

[Ortheore]

1) Do you have the ability to change forme in battle?
Yes - Any forme which requires another forme of Pokémon in order to be brought into battle (e.g. think megas) then that forme can only be brought in a tier where the base forme is legal. Base forme here defines the forme which is brought into battle initially.
No - move onto next question.
2) Is there a change in typing between the formes?
Yes - then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - move onto next question.
3) Do they have different (base?) stats?
Yes - then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - Do not tier them separately.

I personally like this framework. In particular the lack of a criterion for aesthetic changes is good, since by now it's clear that pokemon that are designated as being different forms aren't necessarily different for competitive purposes. Also a framework like this one allows us to determine what a form is independent of what gamefreak might say. However one important thing to note is that the last criterion is arguably true for shinies.

Also, by excluding moves are we opening ourselves up to some sort of inconsistency later on? If a hypothetical pokemon were introduced with two forms with identical stats and typing, but very different movepools such that one has Stealth Rock and Spikes and the other has something like Quiver Dance and Shell Smash, they would function very differently and we would be inclined to tier them separately. However that's inconsistent with the above framework. The same applies to abilities as well, like if one form got Magic Guard and the other got Prankster, that would make a big difference

 

[Disaster Area]

Also, by excluding moves are we opening ourselves up to some sort of inconsistency later on? If a hypothetical pokemon were introduced with two forms with identical stats and typing, but very different movepools such that one has Stealth Rock and Spikes and the other has something like Quiver Dance and Shell Smash, they would function very differently and we would be inclined to tier them separately. However that's inconsistent with the above framework. The same applies to abilities as well, like if one form got Magic Guard and the other got Prankster, that would make a big difference

We can always re-evaluate our policy if gamefreak does something weird - honestly that's something in general I'd expect to happen. Who would have seen mega evolutions coming? Anyway as it currently stands the framework listed here splits up formes in a way that we feel comfortable with, and provides a logical framework to follow, so that if anyone asks, for example, why are arceus formes tiered differently, but genesect formes aren't, or why do we tier some shiny GSC Pokémon differently, we can say because we have this framework - and it's easy enough for anyone to follow.

Imo:

Ask which definition of formes to use [My framework; My framework but altereted to include moves too; Abstain; Other], that anyone can vote, and that they can but do not need to include reasoning in their voting post, and the vote could be open for one week.

I think after we vote on that, we should vote upon how we interpret the framework - answering what the OP asks; can Shinies be considered separate formes in GSC and should they be tiered differently?

 

[Enigami]

I think this would work best for our criterion:

Spoiler: Criterion Suggestion

1) Do they visually appear different?
Yes - Move onto next question.
No - Do not tier them separately.

2) Does the forme require another forme of Pokemon to be brought into battle?
Yes - If the other forme is not legal in the tier, do not tier them seperately. Otherwise, move onto next question.
No - Move onto next question.

3?) Does the forme force a specific move on sets?
Yes - Do not tier them separately.
No - Move onto next question.

4) Does the forme originate from an ability?
Yes - Do not tier them separately.
No - Move onto next question.

5) Is there a change in typing between the formes?
Yes - Then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - Move onto next question.

6?) Do they have different abilities?
Yes - Then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - Do not tier them separately

7) Do they have different (base?) stats?
Yes - Then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - Do not tier them separately (unless differing movepools is accepted as criterion)

8?) Do they have different movepools?
Yes - Then tier separately, and treat as separate Pokémon.
No - Do not tier them separately.

Every current separately tiered forme is aesthetically different which qualifies them for my 1st criterion (GSC Shinies also qualify), and prevents things such as Eruption Heatran, Softboiled Clefable or a hypothetical Event Pokemon with locked IVs that all otherwise appear the same as another Pokemon from being able to qualify due to the 6th, 7th or 8th criterion. The 4th criterion eliminates certain formes like Darumaka-Zen and the Weather Castforms from being able to qualify. The 3rd, 6th criterion and 8th (linked with 3rd, options would be add neither, add 8th, add 8th and 3rd) would be voted on. The optional 6th criterion would allow Basculin-Blue Striped and Meowstic-F to be tiered separately. The optional 8th criterion would allow DPP Rotom Appliance Formes, Genesect Drive Formes, Keldeo-R and Pikachu Cosplay formes to be tiered separately. The optional 3rd criterion would eliminate Keldeo-R from reaching the 9th criterion if forcing a move is undesirable for tiering.

Edit: Spoilered my criterion suggestion to reduce the wall of text.

 

[Lutra]

So should Species clause become a Forme clause or do we just accept some added complexity with viability?