RBY Self-KO Clause

[Disaster Area]

Spoiler: Original OP

Should we have this clause in effect, yes or no?

Self-KO clause: The player automatically loses if his last Pokémon uses Selfdestruct or Explosion.

In that scenario, if Self-KO Clause were not in effect, it would be a tie. Like Species Clause and others, this was introduced by Nintendo originally. If you want a discussion thread, please post that in your vote or via a vm.

This thread will be open for a week. Anyone may vote.

After the vote, the rule will be enforced in all PP tours.

Spoiler: Votes

Yes - 2
Disaster Area, Marcoasd
No - 3
Funbot28, Lutra, Mirabel_

Read post #21

 

[marcoasd]

My original cartridges include that. The question is: why not?

(Yes)

 

[Lutra]

Can you provide the information for what happens with burns, poison, leech, recoil... do they ever end in draws? If the mechanics say the user to lose all health first loses and Explosion/Selfdestruct depletes the user's health before damaging, and Self-KO clause is only correcting PO's false RBY mechanics, then yes.

Edit: But I think PO should correct mechanics more importantly.

 

[Disaster Area]

Can you provide the information for what happens with burns, poison, leech, recoil... do they ever end in draws? If the mechanics say the user to lose all health first loses and Explosion/Selfdestruct depletes the user's health before damaging, and Self-KO clause is only correcting PO's false RBY mechanics, then yes.

Edit: But I think PO should correct mechanics more importantly.

with the rare deaths from poison/burn/leech/recoil, with Self-KO Clause in effect, then the first Pokémon to faint loses [i.e. not the one taking recoil etc] but without Self-KO Clause that scenario would be a tie.

 

[Lutra]

okay, I'll say no then for now. I want the sim just to follow the mechanics but feel there's no reason not to have draws if the game allows it.

 

[magic9mushroom]

What happens in a cartridge battle? Does it differ between generations?

Until I know that, I can't vote.

 

[Funbot28]

No

If the mon uses a moke that KO's the other mon first before they die, why should the player who used that move lose?

 

[marcoasd]

What happens in a cartridge battle? Does it differ between generations?

Until I know that, I can't vote.

In a cartridge battle, you boom you last mon- you lose.
I think it differs between gens, given how people is voting.

 

[magic9mushroom]

In a cartridge battle, you boom you last mon- you lose.
I think it differs between gens, given how people is voting.

What happens for your opponent (assuming the Explosion KOs their last mon)? Do they also lose, or do they win?

 

[marcoasd]

What happens for your opponent (assuming the Explosion KOs their last mon)? Do they also lose, or do they win?

He wins, you lose.

 

[Mirabel_]

He wins, you lose.

So... absolutely pointless and groundless clause? I don't see what's being targeted by it if that's how it works originally.

 

[Ortheore]

ok so in last mon situation if you boom you lose, if you KO but die from burn/poison you win? And the carts actually implement this? If that's the case then yes, I think we should implement it.

If it's not supported on cartridges I don't think we should, since I think it's something that's fairly arbitrary and artificial, but nonetheless capable of having a significant impact on a series (and by extension, tour). If you're in a position where you've earned a draw, that's what you should get.

That said, I could go either way on this, I don't have a strong stance one way or the other. I've said my anti-clause bit above, the obvious flipside is that not having draws makes tours a lot smoother.

Also is it even possible to have a draw via Leech Seed/recoil? I thought seed didn't work unless both pokemon are alive at the end of the turn. Likewise, don't recoil moves have a glitch similar to HBeam where they don't inflict recoil if the land a KO?

edit: lol I was thinking g6 mechs for leech seed oops

 

[Lutra]

It's probably not a draw with leech, since leech presumably goes before burn and poison on an opponent, but where's a list of the order of end of turn effects for rby?

Also I know the lack of recoil for KOes is in Stadium. If it's RBY as well, I didn't know that.

Edit: nvm, seems whoever moves first gets leech/burn/poison damage inflicted according to crystal's post, so presumably who moves first loses if they would both otherwise draw at the end of the turn with burn/leech/poison damage. Also I got confused, poison/burn is applied first, then leech.

Regarding recoil, enemy faint check is first after the player has moved, so presumably the enemy koed with double-edge etc. would lose first.

So in conclusion, whoever moves first receives poison/burn and then leech damage first; whoever moves first and koes with a recoil move wins.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Given all the confusion about what actually happens in cartridge I think calling a vote might have been premature.

If you want a discussion thread, please post that in your vote or via a vm.

Please. We seem to still be in second-reading stage.

 

[Lutra]

So... if we assume crystal's post is right and what marco said is right (check if it's to do with speed if you haven't already in case), we just need to check how PO behaves with and without Self-KO clause.

 

[marcoasd]

So... absolutely pointless and groundless clause? I don't see what's being targeted by it if that's how it works originally.

The clause is needed as the simulator (PO) lets the battle end with a tie if Self-KO clause is not on. And that's different from cartridge for no reason (in tournaments).

Given all the confusion about what actually happens in cartridge I think calling a vote might have been premature.

It's premature as it shouldn't even be questioned at all.
This clause is there because the simulator doesn't work accordingly to the cartridge, and it leaves players the (extra) option to end with a tie in friendly games. That doesn't mean ending with a tie should be set as a tournament rule.

There's not much confusion about what happens in case of a last pokemon exploding. I didn't check for burns, posoin, recoils etc, but we know what happens in case of an explosion.

 

[magic9mushroom]

It's premature as it shouldn't even be questioned at all.
This clause is there because the simulator doesn't work accordingly to the cartridge, and it leaves players the (extra) option to end with a tie in friendly games. That doesn't mean ending with a tie should be set as a tournament rule.

There's not much confusion about what happens in case of a last pokemon exploding. I didn't check for burns, posoin, recoils etc, but we know what happens in case of an explosion.

If we're sure of that, then yes it's obvious (but it shouldn't even be stated as a clause, it's just literally a bug that should be reported and fixed).

But I'd really appreciate some proof because I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way in single-player.

<-- reeeeeally wants an emulator that can do link battles so I can check all this stuff myself and not have to be this rude

 

[Lutra]

Crystal_ | Smogon Forums

Both players apparently lose!

Now, we could dismiss this as just a draw, but we could alternatively view it as new territory:

Win for player and Win for opponent = +1, +1 = double win = 2
Win for player and Draw for opponent = +1, +0 = win+draw = 1
Win for player and Loss for opponent = +1, -1 = win/loss = 0
Draw for player and Win for opponent = +0, +1 = win+draw = 1
Draw for player and Draw for opponent = +0, +0 = draw = 0
Draw for player and Loss for opponent = +0, -1 = loss+draw = -1
Loss for player and Win for opponent = -1, +1 = win/loss = 0
Loss for player and Draw for opponent = -1, +0 = loss+draw = -1
Loss for player and Loss for opponent = -1,-1 = double loss = -2

 

[Isa]

i think calling it a draw would be better than calling it a loss for both players as it could cause perverse scenarios/incentives in round robin formats to cause the opponent to lose

 

[marcoasd]

Finally took cartridges again to check recoils and explosions. They turned out to have the same outcome, as previously mentioned: both recive a message saying the opponent has defeated them, and the player reciving the Explosion or Double Edge has a poke ball without the cross.

Last time I checked I was mocked by having two cartridges where both players where named ASH, so I could read "ASH defeated ASH" instead of "RED defeated ASH" and "ASH defeated RED" depending on which screen I was looking :S.

Well, this is awkward. Self-KO clause is no more mandatory in that sense; it could be discussed as something implemented with Stadium.