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SM 1U (Universal Beta) Salamenceite Retest?

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Do we want to retest Salamenceite (and by extension, Mega Salamence) in SM 1U?
    [​IMG]
    Aerialate was nerfed in SM 1U, but some players may feel it is still too overpowered to re-allow in the tier. Let's have a quick discussion: if we feel that Mega Salamence is not actually quick-ban material, we can vote to reallow it in the tier,
     
  2. SaDiSTiCNarwhal

    SaDiSTiCNarwhal Always tired Member

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    The way I see it is that without things like the Primals, Salamence after 1 or 2 DDs can cause a lot of damage. And while there are checks to it like Celesteela, it is easy to say that checking Celesteela back isn't the hardest thing to do
     
  3. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Hmm it is a good point though that the introduction of Celesteela is the introduction of another check to it...
     
  4. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    If by the Primals bit you assume without having them makes Mega Salamence more dangerous, then the same can be said when Mega Salamence is paired with Primals because they increase its offensive potency. In 1v1 situations, Celesteela will win vs. Mega Salamence most of the time, unless it faces the DDD (Defensive Dragon Dance), or the rare Substitute set (which still relies on prediction to successfully pull it off vs. Celesteela); I guess Fire Blast can ease the matchup vs. Celesteela and other Steel-type checks, but it's just a terrible moveslot since Earthquake (and even Draco Meteor for other things) are better in general.

    I'll post my thoughts on Salamencite later.
     
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  5. DG9

    DG9 Member

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    I don't really see a reason not to allow it, like I said in the suspect discussion I think it's best to get the tier in the most alpha form before we begin banning stuff.
     
  6. Ed

    Ed Fizikaly defensive Rotom-Spin Member

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    Let me preface this by pointing out that Mega Salamence itself is fine since the metagame received 2 new viable checks, and as stated in the OP, Aerilate has been weakened. Having said that, I believe that those factors are grounds for not having it quick-banned, so it should be given consideration to be re-allowed.

    This next point I will be talking about is more appropriate for a 1U with Mega Salamence, but since no one's brought it up, it's worth at least a mention. I'll keep it brief; what I want to address is that the initial overwhelm of a Mega Salamence + Kyogre core is a possibility, which could give rise to a stance that the metagame has centralized around those two. Although I can't certainly agree/disagree with that notion, I can say that it shouldn't influence any opinions for a Salamencite retest because there is no metagame here that can serve as a precedent to support it as Salamencite was banned in the only generation it was released in, ORAS (Now Smogon's ORAS Ubers does include Salamencite, but also Primals, Gengarite, and Geomancy, which not only caused a centralization that made a number of Pokemon much less viable (in violation of PP's tiering philosophy), but formed a tier significantly different from 1U).
     
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I guess I'm in favour, afaik no-one really got much opportunity to test MMence and it's better for everyone to try it and come to a decision based on everyone's experience

    Not going to speculate on whether or not it's broken (or not) because idk
     
  8. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Well, we might as well discuss the MMence retest here I guess?

    Personally I have yet to have any issues with MMence. It seldom enters play and there's usually something to force it out when it does. As I said in Discord, the issue is that a lot of the things Mence would like to check give it trouble- EQ users are bulky enough to be problematic, Grasses have things up their sleeve, Fighting types can run Ice coverage if need be, and most Fire attacks are coming from Dragons or Ho-oh. Having said that, a lot of those issues are mitigated if running a bulky DD set.

    Anyway, what are the issues that would normally apply to Mence? Offensive sets are powerful, but more importantly, very difficult to revenge. Having said that, status completely shuts it down, and unless it runs Roost (which is a very legit option) it's not hard to accrue chip damage in some way. Also priority is a thing.

    Basically I think Mence needs to be running Roost to be functioning to its fullest potential. Offensive sets without it are fine, but not broken imo. It's sets consisting of DD/Roost/STAB and then either EQ or Refresh that I think need more testing
     
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  9. WreckDra

    WreckDra Member

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    DD/D-E/Facade/Roost will also need testing as these sets take status and turn it into game opening damage (Facade negates burn attack drop). I'm all for letting mence back in, but let's be thorough about it. There is a reason that set is one the most popular ways to run mence in smogon SM Ubers.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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