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ADV OU (OverUsed) Salamence [GP Ready]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by ThrashNinjax, Jan 15, 2016.

  1. The Notorious B.I.G.

    The Notorious B.I.G. en ring til å herske Member

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    wish mence should be updated with the spread piex posted aka the spread i gave him
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
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  2. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    I mentioned 136 speed on WishMence, though 252/252 is usually better and that's why its the main spread - especially seeing how you don't really wanna play mindgames with Cune and you can bluff Hera if necessary.

    The Sprite is added and everything else is mentioned.
     
  3. The Notorious B.I.G.

    The Notorious B.I.G. en ring til å herske Member

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    252/252 is not better in any regard lol, I too like losing to sd Heracross with my salamence lol.

    Also mention lax and sub cm cune as nice wish mence partners
     
  4. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Added. Is this GP ready?
     
  5. Sobi

    Sobi hi Member

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    If nobody replies in >3-5 days, post in the gp queue
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    can you add a Set Details: heading between the sets and the details? See other analyses for example on how it should look
     
  7. Deadboots

    Deadboots Resident Lethargarian Host Emeritus

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    Please implement the following GP edit when able

    Introduction:

    If you're wondering why every team in ADV seems to have a bulky Water, or a combination of Skarmory, Gengar, and Claydol, look no further than this offensive monster. Salamence has been a titan of the tier since its inception, elevated by its 'just-fast-enough' speed tier of 100 and its blazing offensive stats, which allow it to go either full physical or mixed to break different team archetypes. Its solid bulk - bolstered by a good pool of resists and Intimidate - can also allow it to take set-up off a weaker attacker, or even play a defensive role. Despite its inability to play as aggressively against Pokemon with an Ice move (all of which threaten to OHKO it), Salamence is a multifaceted threat that every team should be thoroughly prepared for.

    SETS:

    Mixed

    Salamence @ Leftovers / Black Belt
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
    Rash Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Claw
    - Brick Break
    - Toxic / Hidden Power Grass / Wish

    Set Details:

    The Mixed set is probably the new standard for Salamence, as many of the teams that run this set like its ability to cripple the bulky Pokemon that tend to switch into it. Dragon Claw is the main coverage attack to do damage, which Fire Blast supplements by laying waste to Steel types. Brick Break also plays a crucial role on this set by preventing Blissey and Snorlax from walling it: one hit and they're running back to their hole. The last move is a matter of necessity: Toxic is the preferred option because it tends to cripple everything it hits, hampering the defensive capability of Pokemon like Swampert, Milotic, and Zapdos. HP Grass hits Swampert specifically, which helps offensive Rock types, but it renders MixMence unable to break Milotic, Suicune, and Zapdos. Finally, Wish can aid teams with longevity issues, as it allows Salamence to keep the team healthy.

    The EVs are fairly standard: max Special Attack and Speed for damage output. Leftovers provide longevity, but Black Belt is a viable option that puts a little more power into Brick Break. Black Belt gives this Salamence a better chance of 2HKOing Blissey and Snorlax. Rash is run over Mild to ensure Salamence can get the most out of Intimidate versus Pokemon like Heracross and Flygon. Finally, Rock Slide is an option to ensure the 2HKO on some Zapdos. However, with offensive variants already chipped pretty hard by DClaw + Toxic, and defensive variants falling out of favour because of the new Sleep Talk mechanics, it may not be the best choice.

    MixMence pairs well with offensive Pokemon that like Swampert and its kin out of the way, such as Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Aerodactyl's high speed and power can also cover some offensive CMers that Mence tends to struggle against, while TTar's sand wears down most Pokemon and makes it easier to kill them off with Dragon Claw. Likewise, a check to these offensive Pokemon is necessary, as Aerodactyl in particular survives every move in MixMence's arsenal while outspeeding and threatening a Rock Slide KO. Metagross can cover this particular matchup while making the most out of Swampert being weakened. Finally, the usage of Black Belt can lead to Mence getting worn down, especially in Sandstorm. An offensive Wish user (like Jirachi or Jolteon) can provide valuable support to Black Belt MixMence.

    Choice Band

    Salamence @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly / Adamant Nature
    - Hidden Power Flying
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Brick Break / Double Edge / Fire Blast

    Set Details:

    This set is an older standard that has fallen off a bit. Even so, Choice Banded Salamence will always be a force to reckon with. Hidden Power Flying is its STAB move, which deals a solid amount of damage despite poor base power. Rock Slide and Earthquake back it up by hitting most of the OU tier super-effectively. Like the MixMence set’s last slot, the last move on this set should cater to the needs of the team. Brick Break is probably the preferred option, threatening Ice types as well as guaranteeing the OHKO on Tyranitar – the latter point is one of the best reasons to use it. Double Edge, however, is another solid move, doing a lot of damage to bulky Water-types, as well as other defensive checks to Salamence. However, consider that Double Edge is not the greatest move to be locked into, and that its recoil can set you back. Fire Blast is another common option if the team doesn’t incorporate Magneton or some other form of Skarmory removal.

    The EVs are standard: max Attack and Speed to outrun the most and hit the hardest. The nature is up to you: Jolly is probably preferred, as it allows this Salamence to outspeed standard DD Tyranitar at +1, as well as all Heracross (Adamant outruns all Heracross too, so this is a less relevant factor). At worst, Jolly Salamence ties with CB Flygon, CM Celebi without HP Fire, and CM Jirachi, all of which CB Salamence can be used to revenge kill. Adamant is still an option, however, as its higher damage output can be telling, especially with Spikes + Sandstorm support.

    Both CB Salamences tend to fit into similar teams: those looking for an offensive glue, Heracross check, and a hard hitter to pair with Metagross/Tyranitar. Again, a check to Rock types is very nice: Metagross does this in spades, and Magneton can switch into Aero as well as remove Skarmory. The latter point is incredibly valuable for CB Salamence without Fire Blast. This Salamence also tends to struggle more with bulky water-types, which are all at best 3HKOed and threaten an OHKO in return. Tyranitar's Sandstorm and a Spiker, such as Skarmory or Forretress, can help wear them down, as can a Toxic-using heavy hitter like Modest Zapdos. Finally, getting worn down by sand/random attacks can be troublesome, and an offensive Wish Jirachi or Jolteon can help mitigate this without slowing down the team too much.

    Wish

    Salamence @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spd
    Bold / Impish Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Flamethrower / Hidden Power Flying

    Set Details:

    This set is a bulkier variant of Salamence that uses its solid defenses, access to Intimidate, and the combination of Wish and Protect to act as a very solid wall. These two moves are used to keep Salamence healthy throughout the game, and to heal teammates such as Swampert. Toxic is used to pose a threat to non-Steel types, and it has natural synergy with Protect. Flamethrower barbecues the Steel types that usually tank Toxic. However, HP Flying provides an overall stronger attack and a better deterrent to several dangerous Pokemon. HP Flying WishMence appreciates being paired with Magneton to remove Skarmory. This set is one of the best Heracross checks in the metagame, thanks to the defensive investment as well as the speed creep that targets standard SD Heracross sets.

    As for partners, this set fits best on slower-paced teams that need a Wish passer: Swampert, for example, covers Tyranitar + Aerodactyl cores, as well as other Pokemon like Metagross (which WishMence doesn't effectively check), while appreciating Heracross being dealt with and health gained back from Wish. Celebi and Substitute/CM Suicune benefit in a similar regard. Magneton removes Steels, as well as handling Gengar, which this set struggles to deal with. Snorlax also generally appreciates Wish so that it doesn't get worn down, and it covers the special threats that Mence often flounders against. Finally, a Spiker can work well in combination with WishMence, as Toxic and Wish tend to force switches which can be taken advantage of. Skarmory and Forretress also appreciate WishMence's services as a backup physical wall, as it is able to fill in if they drop to low health.

    Dragon Dance

    Salamence @ Leftovers / Liechi Berry
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Hidden Power Flying
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide / Fire Blast

    Set Details:

    This set is one of the oldest standards in ADV OU. Though it has fallen off in recent times, it is still a formidable threat, largely due to the fact that after one Dragon Dance it outspeeds the tier. Unlike its cousins DD Tyranitar and DD Gyarados, it cannot be revenge killed.

    The set is fairly standard, featuring Dragon Dance as a boosting move and Hidden Power Flying for offensive STAB. Earthquake backs it up by hitting Steels and Rock types that would resist HP Flying, while Rock Slide nails other annoying Flyers. Fire Blast is an option for Skarmory, but it renders this Salamence unable to kill Zapdos and Aerodactyl, which can easily lead to the tables turning. Finally, Double-Edge is an option to achieve better damage output on certain bulkier Pokemon, but it's an inferior option overall.

    Though a 252/252 spread is viable, the listed spread is definitely more efficient: max attack to get the best chance of punching through weakened bulky Waters and Claydol, and enough Speed to outrun Adamant Heracross, which most Salamences are meant to check. The rest should go into bulk to improve the chance of surviving Ice Beams from bulky Pokemon that don't usually invest the SpA necessary to OHKO. Leftovers is the main item option as it can keep Salamence healthy, but Liechi Berry is a viable option. +2 Salamence is a lot more threatening, especially as it comfortably 2HKOes every Pokemon in the tier with the appropriate move. With the suggested bulk investment, Mence will often be hanging on by the skin of its teeth after tanking a weak Ice attack, allowing Liechi to activate and turn the tables.

    This Salamence usually appreciates the support of wallbreakers like Metagross and Tyranitar, which can weaken or outright punch through the bulky Waters that wall this set. Spikes can also make a good supporting option, as Pokemon like Suicune and Porygon2 can get worn down into HP Flying range. If Fire Blast is eschewed, Magneton is an absolute necessity to keep Skarmory from walling DD Salamence.

    Other Options:


    Hydro Pump is an option on the Mixed set, as it does heavy damage to Aerodactyl and Claydol, but other coverage moves and the existence of Toxic (which hits everything) make it an inferior option overall. Double-Edge works on pretty much every set (especially if backed up by CB or Silk Scarf), but other coverage makes it pretty inferior unless Salamence is used as a lure. Physical lure sets (with Sharp Beak or Silk Scarf) are a nice option to lure Skarmory while also packing utility options (like Wish or Toxic), though these sets lack versatile coverage.

    Checks and Counters:

    Bulky Waters are the bane of Salamence's existence: Swampert, Suicune, and Milotic all comfortably tank two hits while threatening to OHKO back with Ice Beam. All three have to be wary of Toxic / Boosted Double-Edge, though. Skarmory is scared to death of Fire Blast, but does a good job at walling physical Salamences that don't run it. Zapdos doesn't enjoy taking CB Rock Slides and is annoyed by Toxic, but it can usually force Salamence out with the threat of HP Ice. Gengar outruns Salamence, is usually bulky enough to take a hit (from any variant), and threatens to kill it with Ice Punch. It makes a good fallback for stall teams that struggle with MixMence's coverage and ability to Toxic water types. However, Gengar’s low bulk and lack of recovery mean that it cannot switch in too many times. Other fast Pokemon like Aerodactyl, Jolteon, and Starmie work as checks in a similar vein, though these usually have to predict in order to switch in safely. Claydol, though rare, tanks any of Salamence’s attacks (barring Toxic or a Double-Edge) while threatening to kill back with Ice Beam. It does get worn down more easily than bulky Waters, though. Porygon2 handles both CB and DD Salamence variants with its solid bulk and access to Ice Beam + Recover. MixMence (and the CB set assuming it clicks Brick Break) hammers it pretty hard, and Porygon2 doesn't like eating Toxic, either.

    Changelog: ADV_salamence_changelog.docx - Google Drive
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Once you've implemented it, change [GP Ready] to [Done]
     
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Survives/surviving, not "lives"/"living".
    Quoting you to point out that you missed it.
     
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  10. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    there are some other ev spreads that are useful for mixmence; I don't think 252/252 is necessarily the best;

    there are a few other DD Mence spreads also :']; when I'm not feeling ill, I'll update
     
  11. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    4 Atk Leftovers Salamence Rock Slide vs. 0 HP/ 0 Def Leftovers Zapdos: 161 - 190 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
    4 Atk Leftovers Salamence Rock Slide vs. 248 HP/ 36 Def Leftovers Zapdos: 154 - 182 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

    No OHKO here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
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  12. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    time for a small update; mention that with Jolly SD Heracross on the rise, it might be worth it to just use Timid/Jolly on Wish Mence hit 296 and invest the rest in bulk. I think Jolly SD does not max out its speed, but on the other hand those extra defensive evs probably don't really do anything

    offensive wish is either an other option, or a set on its own.

    mixmence evs can be messed around with a bit;

    also i have genuinely never seen a DD Liechi salamence

    Edit mixmence with correct facts on rock slide

    Hydro Pump I guess can be an other option but idt i have seen it much or at all;

    ThrashNinjax
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
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  13. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Offensive Wish is close enough to MixMence that I feel that it might as well be fourth slash, could also be a fourth move on lure sets so it can get a little more mileage than luring xyz mon. Want to hear some more opinions.

    I've messed around with mixmence's evs now and again but never found anything that really stuck - only thing I really considered was just cutting my speed to 296 to beat jolly hera and either throwing said 12 evs in hp or cutting spa a little to get 32 attack evs which means BB 2hkos bliss with sand and a layer of spikes. It rarely works out being super useful though so if you know of any cool hp / def / sdef benchmarks I'd be happy to hear them.

    Liechi DDMence is kinda whack, ditto HPump, think both were actually things a while ago though and I just included them because legacy / they both have some small niche.

    Everything else you mentioned I added / edited.
     
  14. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    impish 296 mence probably has no bulk lol; if you want to be fast wish mence use jolly you save bunch of EVs that way
     
  15. eden

    eden end. Host Emeritus

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    liechi mence looks p bad, i wouldn't slash it on a main set; maybe mention it being an option in set notes?
    mixed/CB/DD/Wish, for the order?
    Wish is definitely the last one(not to say that it's bad)
    Mixed/CB/DD all can destroy teams so idk the order; mention more sp.d spreads in DD, but those hit quite a bit softer;

    In DD Mence while Fire Blast is an option, DD Mence(esp w Adamant, is not getting past Skarmory); so I'd say magneton is almost "required" to really get DD Mence going; Mention toxic spam with stuff like jirachi/Metagross/Flygon to force poison on to bulky waters as being excellent support(especially when used with Magneton); other mons like DD Liechi tar are also excellent as teammates;

    everything else is p solid imo; someone else might notice some stuff to add tho
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Is Aerial Ace preferred to HP Flying on the wish set? Owning Cacturne is great, and it still OHKOs Heracross. Or does HP Flying have other merits?

    Also mention a bulky DDMence spread, e.g:
    EVs: 8 HP / 160 Atk / 200 SpD / 140 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe

    survives 299 spa gengar ice punch in sand, also takes pert and milotic ice beam I think. Hits 270 spe, outspeeding adamant heracross and outspeeds everything at +1, with the rest in Atk
     

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