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ADV OU (OverUsed) Salamence [GP Ready]

Discussion in 'Individual Analyses' started by ThrashNinjax, Jan 15, 2016.

  1. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Salamence [​IMG]
    Type: Dragon / Flying
    Stats: 95 / 135 / 80 / 110 / 80 / 100
    Abilities: Intimidate

    Introduction:

    If you're wondering why every team in ADV seems to have a bulky Water, or a combination of Skarmory, Gengar, Claydol, then look no further than this offensive monster. Salamence has been a titan of the tier since its inception, elevated by its 'just fast enough' speed tier of 100 and its blazing offensive stats, which allow it to go either full physical or mixed to break different kinds of teams. Its solid bulk, bolstered by a good pool of resists and Intimidate, can also allow it to take set-up off a weaker attacker or even play a defensive role. Despite it's inability to play as aggressively against mons with an Ice move (all of which threaten to OHKO it), or who just keep up solid pressure, Salamence is a multifaceted threat that every team should be thoroughly prepared for.

    Sets

    MixMence

    Salamence @ Leftovers / Black Belt
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
    Rash Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Claw
    - Brick Break
    - Toxic / Hidden Power Grass / Wish

    Set Details

    The Mixed set is probably the new standard for Salamence, as many of the teams who run it like its ability to cripple Bulky mons that tend to switch into it. Dragon Claw is the main coverage attack to do damage, which Fire Blast supplements by laying waste to Steel Types. Brick Break also plays a crucial role on this set by keeping Blissey and Snorlax from walling you: one hit and they're running back to their hole. The last move is a matter of necessity: Toxic is the preferred option because it tends to mess up everything it hits, and especially hampers the ability of mons like Swampert, Milotic and Zapdos to handle your offensive team. HP Grass hits Swampert in specific which helps offensive Rock types, but it leaves you unable to break Milotic, Suicune and Zapdos. Lastly, Wish can help with a team that has longevity issues and allows Mence to keep itself and its team healthy.

    The EVs are fairly standard, max Special Attack and Speed for output, while Leftovers give longevity. Black Belt is an option to put a little more power into Brick Break, and get you a better chance at 2HKOing Blissey and Snorlax. Rash is run over Mild to ensure Mence can get the most out of Intimidate vs certain mons like Heracross and Flygon. Lastly, Rock Slide is an option to put heavy damage on Zapdos and snipe Aerodactyl, but with offensive variants of Zap already chipped pretty hard by DClaw+Toxic, and the defensive variants falling out of favour because of the new Sleep Talk mechanics, it may not be the best choice. Aero itself can't switch into Dragon Claw more than once, so there's that, too.

    MixMence pairs well with offensive mons and teams that like Swampert and its kin out of the way, such as Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Aerodactyl's high speed and power can also cover some offensive CMers that Mence tends to struggle against, while TTar's sand wears down most mons and makes it easier to kill them off with Dragon Claw. Likewise a check to these offensive mons is necessary, as Aerodactyl in particular lives every move in Mence's arsenal while outspeeding and threatening a Rock Slide KO: Metagross can cover this while making the most out of Swampert being weakened. Lastly the usage of Black Belt can lead to Mence getting worn down, especially in Sandstorm, so an offensive Wish user, like Jirachi or Jolteon, can back you up there.

    CBMence

    Salamence @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly / Adamant Nature
    - Hidden Power Flying
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Brick Break / Double Edge / Fire Blast

    Set Details

    This set is an older standard that has fallen off a bit, even so, Choice Banded Salamence will always be a force to reckon with. Hidden Power Flying is your STAB move, which deals a solid amount of damage despite poor base power, while Rock Slide and Earthquake back it up by hitting most of the OU tier super-effectively. Again the last move comes down to necessity. Brick Break is probably the preferred option, threatening Ice types as well as guaranteeing the OHKO on Tyranitar, which is one of the reasons to use it. Double Edge however is another solid move, doing a lot of damage to Bulky Waters and other Defensive checks to Salamence, be warned though, that it is not the greatest move to be locked into and its recoil can also set you back. Fire Blast is an option if you aren't running Magneton or some other form of Skarmory removal, so consider it.

    The EVs are standard, maxed Attack and Speed to outrun most and hit hardest. The Nature is up to you, however Jolly is probably the preferred one, as it allows you to outspeed +1 DD Tyranitar and all Heracross (Adamant outruns all Hera too btw) as well as at worst tie with CB Flygon, CM Celebi and CM Jirachi, all of which Mence is/can be used to revenge kill. Adamant is still an option however, as its higher damage output can be telling, especially with Spikes+Sandstorm support.

    Both CBMences tend to fit into similar teams: those looking for an offensive glue, Hera check and a hard hitter to pair with their Metagross/Tyranitar. Again, a check to Rock types is very nice: Metagross does this in spades, while Magneton can switch into Aero as well as remove Skarmory, which if you don't have FB is going to be a big impediment. This Mence also tends to struggle more with Bulky Waters, who are all at best 3HKOed and threaten an OHKO in return: Tyranitar's sand and a Spiker, such as Skarmory or Forretress can help wear then down, as can a Toxic using heavy hitter like Modest Zapdos. Lastly getting worn down by sand/random attacks can be troublesome, an offensive Wish Jirachi or Jolteon can help patch this without slowing down your team too much.

    WishMence


    Salamence @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spd
    Bold / Impish Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Flamethrower / Hidden Power Flying

    Set Details

    This set is a bulkier variant of Salamence that uses its solid defenses as well as its access to Intimidate and the combination of Wish and Protect to act as a very solid wall. Those two moves are used to keep Salamence healthy throughout the game, as well as potentially healing teammates such as Swampert. Toxic is used to actually pose a threat, which also goes well with Protect, while Flamethrower barbecues the Steel types that usually tank Toxic, however HP Flying gives a stronger attack and a better deterrent to several dangerous mons, assuming you have a Magneton to remove pesky Skarms. This set is one of the best Heracross checks in the metagame, accomplished by the solid defensive investment as well as the speed creeping on standard SD Heracross sets - and there really aren't many other options as far as checking Heracross is concerned. It's possible to run a speed-boosting nature (Jolly / Timid depending on attacking move) to hit 297 speed, which puts you ahead of the surging Jolly Heracross, ensuring that you hard check it.

    As for partners, this set fits best on slower paced teams that need a Wish Passer: Swampert, for example covers Tyranitar+Aerodactyl Cores, as well as other mons like Metagross which WishMence doesn't effectively check, while appreciating Heracross being dealt with and health gained back from Wish - Celebi and SubCM Suicune benefit in a similar regard. Magneton removes Steels, as well as handling Gengar, which this set struggles to deal with. Snorlax also tends to appreciate Wish so it doesn't get worn down and it covers the special threats that Mence flounders against. Lastly is a Spiker, as Toxic and Wish tend to force switches which can be taken advantage of: Skarmory and Forretress also tend to appreciate WishMence's services as a back-up Physical Wall that can cover their backs should they drop to low health.

    DDMence

    Salamence @ Leftovers / Liechi Berry
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Hidden Power Flying
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide / Fire Blast

    Set Details

    This set is one of the oldest standards in ADV OU, and though it has fallen off in recent times it still is a formidable threat, made so by the fact that after one Dragon Dance it outspeeds the tier, which means that unlike its cousins DDTar and DDGyara, it cannot be revenge killed.

    The set is fairly standard, featuring Dragon Dance as a boosting move and Hidden Power Flying for offensive STAB. Earthquake backs it up by hitting Steels and Rock types that would resist HP Flying, while Rock Slide nails other annoying Flyers. Fire Blast is an option if you want to try and nail Skarm, but it leaves you unable to kill Zapdos and Aerodactyl, which can lead to the tables turning on Mence. Lastly, Double-Edge is an option to get better damage output on certain bulkier mons, but it's an inferior option overall.

    Though a 252/252 spread is viable, the listed spread is definitely more efficient: Max attack to get the best chance of punching through weakened Bulky Waters and Claydol, while the speed outruns Adamant Heracross, a thing that most Mences are meant to check. The rest should go into bulk to improve your chances of living Ice Beams from above Bulky mons, who don't usually invest in the SpA necessary to OHKO it. Leftovers is the main option as it can keep you healthy, but Liechi Berry is an option, as +2 Mence is a lot more threatening, especially as it now comfortably 2HKOes every mon in the tier with the appropriate move. With the bulk investment, Mence will often be hanging on by the skin of its teeth from Ice attacks in any case, allowing Liechi to activate and turn the tables.

    This Salamence usually likes the support of wallbreakers like Metagross and Tyranitar, which can weaken or outright punch through the bulky waters that wall this set. Spikes also makes a good supporting option, as stuff like Suicune and Porygon2 tend to get worn down into the range of HP Flying by them. Lastly, if not running Fire Blast, Magneton is an absolute necessity to keep Skarm from walling you.

    Other Options


    Hydro Pump is an option on the Mixed set, as it does heavy damage to Claydol and Tyranitar while utterly annihilating Aerodactyl, but coverage and the existence of Toxic (which hits everything) make it an inferior option overall. Double-Edge works on pretty much every set (especially if backed up by CB or Silk Scarf), but coverage makes it pretty inferior as a move unless you're using Mence as a lure. Physical lure sets (with Sharp Beak or Silk Scarf) are a nice option to lure Skarmory and hurt bulky waters while also packing utility options (like Wish or Toxic), though the lack of power can let them down when facing more defensive teams.

    Checks and Counters

    Bulky Waters are the bane of Salamence's existence: Swampert, Suicune and Milotic all comfortably tank two hits while threatening to OHKO back with Ice Beam, they do have to be wary of Toxic / Boosted Double-Edge though. Skarmory is scared to death of Fire Blast but does a good job at walling Physical Salamences that don't run it. Zapdos doesn't enjoy taking CB Rock Slides and is annoyed by Toxic but it can usually force Mence out with HP Ice. Gengar outruns Mence, is usually bulky enough to take a hit, and threatens to kill it with Ice Punch. It makes a good fallback for Stall teams that struggle with MixMence's coverage and tendency to Toxic water types, however, its low bulk and lack of recovery mean it cannot switch in too many times. Other fast-mons like Aerodactyl, Jolteon and Starmie work as checks in a similar vein, though these usually have to predict to switch-in safely. Claydol, though rare, takes anything from Mence barring a Toxic or a Double-Edge, while threatening to kill back with Ice Beam. It does get worn down more easily than Bulky Waters though as well as having a ton of other issues. Porygon2 does a good job at handling CB and DD Mence with its Solid bulk and access to Ice Beam+Recovery. However MixMence (and the CB set assuming it clicks Brick Break) hammer it pretty hard, while P2 doesn't like eating Toxic either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  2. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    I think leftovers deserves a mention on the mixed set. The ability to not be continually worn down by sand is quite useful especially considering how much the set appreciates sand offensively. I also might make the DD mence set bulkier. 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe with 31/31/31/30/30/30 IVs will survive an icebeam from pert with up to 36 SpA while still outspeeding adamant heracross and stuff like aero at +1. Otherwise looks good.
     
  3. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Eh personally I feel Leftovers isn't so necessary, Black Belt gets the crucial 2HKOs on Blissey and Snorlax while again this Mence doesn't really need to stick around like other variants do, it will get a mention though. I might also remove Rock Slide because SpDef Zap is a lot less of an issue post the new mechanics.

    DD I just threw on the standard set, I definitely could add a bulkier one though, as well as maybe slashing Liechi cause one of DDMence's problems is a lack of power at +1. Anyway thanks, will get this done soon.
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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  5. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Yeah I agree with removing rock slide. Dragon claw does a nice chunk to offensive zapdos anyway. It may be worth putting in OO when you get around to that though. You could also consider moving fire blast from dd mence into OO as well. Losing to aero and even offensive zap kinda sucks.

    Just gonna put my little plug in for lefties: In a gen like adv where switching and pivoting are so important avoiding the extra chip damage is always a nice plus even if it doesn't seem important on paper. Black belt still doesn't get 2hkos on bliss or lax. It has about a 32% chance of 2hkoing modest bliss in sand but with sand up you 3hko all lax and all bliss either way. Black Belt is a good item on mixmence, and the extra damage definitely matters but I believe leftovers is the better item on more balanced teams.
     
  6. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Done

    Edit: Started Jirachi. Will be doing Starmie / Metagross / Heracross in a bit, maybe Zapdos too. If anyone has any more critiques then be my guest.
     
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Everything I've checked says that Tracing Intimidate doesn't do anything in ADV cartridge games.
     
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  8. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Weird. Afaik, if P2 switches in on Mence, it traces Intimidate and Mence gets its attack dropped, I'll double check when I can to make sure.
     
  9. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    magic9mushroom is correct on this one. On a related note it's probably worth mentioning that p2 gets 2hkod by cb brick break. One other thing, I doubt it's super important but it would probably be nice to get this to follow the PP analysis format
     
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  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    C&C could do with tidying up (and removal of the message at the bottom) + what dan/m9m said. Otherwise, good stuff.

    When that's complete I'll add it to the analysis index and Dan will add it to the Viab Ranks
     
  11. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    C&C's been cleaned up, and I edited the P2 mention (not really cutting the mention of Tracing Intimidate yet, I'll probably test it out on PS! over the weekend and then report the results). I'm pretty sure this follows the PP analysis format: (Basic Info-Overview-Sets (Set+Set Details)-OO-C&C), if I missed anything specific let me know.
     
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    [Not a Bug] - ADV Intimidate / Trace bug | Pokemon Online
    Intimidate (Ability) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

    I've also seen forum threads from the ADV era where people complain about it not working in actual cartridge battles.

    PS isn't a primary source for mechanics; if it works in PS then the problem is likely with PS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
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  13. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Yeah trace definitely does not work on intimidate in adv. I believe it was DPP where they fixed that, so definitely change that. By the format I meant what was given in the link in my previous post which outlines specifically which stuff should be bold/underlined etc like I said it's not super important but it's nice to be consistent.
     
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  14. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    also I like people to get the spacing right too (so a blank line beneath each heading etc. like in any other analysis on this site for reference)
     
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  15. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan Host Emeritus

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    Just a reminder, you still haven't fixed the factual error on p2 being able to trace intimidate.
     
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Possible spread on wishmence if the team needs it is
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
    Bold Nature
    outspeed hera and cune
     
  17. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    4 Atk Black Belt Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 280-330 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    ????
     
  18. autumn leaves

    autumn leaves Member

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    in fairness most blissey dont run max/max+

    4 Atk Black Belt Salamence Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 306-360 (47 - 55.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 73.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

    but it still isnt Quite a guarantee... also black belt shouldnt be the first item

    mixmence does not kill p2 with ease o_______O the only way mence ever gets by p2 on its own is cb brick break

    adamant first slash on cb please :s

    also cb and dd mence have not fallen off lol what on earth
     
  19. ThrashNinjax

    ThrashNinjax Lets take to the Skies Host Emeritus

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    Made a lot of the requested edits (at least the ones I thought necessary), is it ready for GP?
     
  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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