ADV 50 Rules & Discussion Thread

[Disaster Area]

ADV 50 is basically a hand-picked ADV metagame (chosen by myself, Cowboy Dan, IHLP, Sunny, and others). We chose to include and exclude tactics that we enjoy or dislike, and attempted to come up with a balanced and interesting metagame based on this idea!~

Roster:

Aggron, Altaria, Ampharos, Armaldo, Azumarill, Banette, Cacturne, Camerupt, Castform, Chimecho, Clefable, Crawdaunt, Crobat, Electrode, Fearow, Flareon, Forretress, Glalie, Golduck, Golem, Granbull, Hitmonlee, Huntail, Jumpluff, Kabutops, Kadabra, Lanturn, Manectric, Mantine, Meganium, Mightyena, Misdreavus, Muk, Nidoqueen, Rapidash, Sableye, Sandslash, Scizor, Scyther, Sharpedo, Shiftry, Slowking, Stantler, Steelix, Torkoal, Typhlosion, Venomoth, Vileplume, Wailord, Whiscash

In addition, Mean Look is banned.

Spoiler: Pokemon Summary

Spikers:

Spinblockers:

Spinners:

Explosion / Self-Destruct:

Potential Rain Abusers:

Potential Sun Abusers:

Clerics:

Screeners:

Phazers:

CBers:

BPers:

SubPunchers:

CMers:

Drummers:

SDers:

Bulk Up:

Cursers:

EndFlail / EndRev:

Sleep Moves:
Sleep Powder:

Hypnosis:

Sing:

[Illegal with Spikes]
Others:

Spoiler: By Type

Bug:

Dark:

Dragon:

Electric:

Fighting:

Fire:

Flying:

Ghost:

Grass:

Ground:

Ice:

Normal:

Poison:

Psychic:

Rock:

Steel:

Water:

Spoiler: By Base Speed

140:

130:

110:

105:

100:

95:

90:

87:

85:

80:

76:

70:

67:

65:

60:

55:

52:

50:

45:

40:

30:

20:

Spoiler: Original OP

So this is a quirky idea I had but Cowboy Dan was supportive so we're gonna go for it! The idea is to hand-pick roughly 50 Pokemon in gen 3 and use that as the basis of a metagame, aiming to include strategies we enjoy, a balanced hazard game, nothing broken, and so on.

ADV is an awesome generation with a very nicely tuned power level kinda by default, but various things are frustrating in various tiers: hazards being too strong or too hard to fit, spinning too difficult, sand, sand veil, skarm the unkillable, arena trap, magnet pull, swagger, brightpowder, pursuit, and so on.

Obviously we can't kill all of the nuisances that ADV has and the game wouldn't be the same without them, but it'd be awesome to explore what a gen 3 metagame which is handpicked looks like, and then playing it, and getting a feel for a new and exciting custom metagame! So in this thread, we're gonna pick what Pokemon we want to have in it. [/Quote]

 

[Disaster Area]

Gonna start with my faves~

- One of my top 5 favourite pokemon, sprite design wise, it's also a cool but low-stat mon in ADV. I think it's a super cool thing we should have in the meta if the power level suits though. SubPunchPass is something no other mon really does, as well as SD and a decently interesting movepool.

- Another of my top 5 favourite pokemon, sprite design wise, I abuse the shit out of it in RBY 1U (somehow)... in ADV it's cool since it can be a strong offensive mon with 130/95 offenses, but it also works as a defensive wish+protect user, clerical support is always soooo cool imo.

- this is my fave bug mon and i love bug mons. This is one of my top 5 fave mons. It might not suit the meta but this or venomoth or something imo would be a cool thing to include: I like bug types with poor typings that can find a use for them somehow. Whirlwind and Moonlight are kinda Dustox's bread and butter. Masquerain is bae too.

those are 3 favourites I just had to mention. Glaceon and Sylveon don't exist in gen 3 so not gonna mention them further. Zangoose is kinda bae but I don't love it as much as I used to.

I kinda also wanna mention a couple mons just bc I think they could do cool things + are the opposite of one-dimensional but never get to show it (ok other than muk but curse muk is cool):

What stuff don't we want to include? I'm vetoing these off of the bat:
- Auto-Weather
- Strong Pursuit Abusers
- Trapping (Arena Trap / Magnet Pull / Shadow Tag)
- Smeargle (too much capacity for cancerous strats hehe)

Question Marks:
-

the inner noob in me loves the fuck out of sheddy. I think it can add interesting stuff to the game but there's decent counterarguments to that too. Interested in thoughts on it.
- Sleep Moves? Am undecided on this but it's an important question to talk about.
- Baton Pass. Obviously: we want to avoid full BP abuse being possible. Where we go before then is an open q tho and I'm open to there being a bit of it around. Do we want stuff like trap-passing around? Idts but interested in opinions.
- Manual weather? I feel like it can overpower things sometimes but it's super interesting in other ways. Open to it but not sure I wanna include it initially.

Really cool stuff:
Trace is an awesome ability b/c it opens up a lot of unique and interesting possibilities, I think we should have at least 1 trace user + think about theoretical uses for it in our meta.

Ok gonna look at the hazard game now:

Spikes

^ + pre-evolutions are your options. I feel like we kinda go from the spikes games and go from there probably. My thoughts on each:
Skarm - def no. No explanation needed
Forretress - probably not but interested to hear thoughts on? Without magnet pull it becomes a lot stronger but I think having something that can just /do hazards/ is nice. Pineco is shit tho.
Cloyster - interesting... it's kind of like an offensive hazards mon tho like glalie. Doesn't rly do anything defensively and it's an ineffective spinner
Omastar - I like it a lot. Has defensive merit and also does some offensive stuff, pretty versatile.
Qwilfish - i dont understand this pokemon lol
Roselia - it's kind of cool but god damn is it frail. Gonna need a power level at ADV NU level or lower for it to be defensively effective
Cacturne - without sand around it's not aids, it has an interesting typing, but it doesnt have the stats to do much defensively unless u get to like ADV NU level and even then. Kind of a cool mon
Glalie - defensively useless lol

didnt list smeargle as already blacklisted.

Ghosts

Gengar - cool mon, might be overpowered. Probably should include it or haunter.
Missy - not sure. is it a cool mon?
clops - is it broke with no pursuiters around?
banette - im keen to have it. It's kinda weirdly stat distributed, find it hard to imagine we make a meta where it's broken. Very physical focus is cool on a ghost type. Usually has to fill out a movepool with support stuff
Sableye - include it to make thriceelite mad. It's cool but needs a suitable power level to really function. Can struggle with spikes up but can also bone a lot of mons if the power level is right. I actually like it

didnt list sheddy as already talked about: its not rly a spinblocker anyway

Spinners

kinda feel like i love a lot of em... and we should probably choose based on what can get around the spinblockers we choose

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Had a big post about the hazard game but you mostly covered it so just gonna respond to yours. in regards to forretress, with pursuit users gone it has an incredibly difficult time spinning but it is by far the best spiker. Great bulk, STAB Bug, toxic and EQ are great against a lot of the spinners. If it's allowed spikes will be a pretty dominant strategy. Probably leaning towards no on this guy. One thing to consider though is depending on what steels we allow in the tier, magnet pull may be a non issue and magneton is a cool poke with that sweet SpA stat and nice resistances.

Moving on to ghosts, gengar as a spin blocker is not incredibly overwhelming but as an offensive threat it very well could be depending on what else is allowed in the tier. Clops without sand or pursuit seems very strong for any team that wants to keep spikes down. Beyond these two I don't have any issue with the other ghosts.

As far as spinners, the elephant in the room is obviously starmie. Like gengar, i don't think it's incredibly overwhelming in this role but depending on what else is allowed in the tier, it could be incredibly centralizing from an offensive standpoint. Everything else I don't see as being too problematic.

As far as baton pass goes, if there's no ninjask, mr mime, cradily, exploud, smeargle, umbreon it should be ok (i hope).

I don't mind having sleep moves allowed.

Now the big question, is what happens to the meta once a few of the pillars are taken down. With TTar gone, Suicune and snorlax become incredibly powerful. These need to be taken out. With Dugtrio and skarm gone, Celebi needs to go. The main overpowering threats left imo are Aerodactyl, Zapdos, Gengar, Metagross, Salamence, Jirachi, heracross, raikou, milotic, Blissey, and possibly things like porygon2, gyarados, alakazam, espeon and regice. There's obviously more im missing but just throwing some things out there.

 

[Disaster Area]

I feel like with power level: start with the hazard game and move from there. So for example if we're using like glalie and roselia as spikers it's different to if we use forretress or something. Think of it as starting with a few mons we really like and a few mons that we deem as necessities to the tier role-wise and then finding stuff that suits it balance-wise.

---

Okay another thing I wanna talk about then is Spikes and their role on different types of teams:

On offensive teams, u kinda just wanna set em and forget about em, if you have them at all. On stall, they play a super important role in terms of breaking stuff. Also, on hard stall, you basically need them to win the game, otherwise all you can hope for is a stalemate: they are the ultimate passive way to defeat a team. For spikes hard stall to really have the potential to be a thing I feel like we need to have at least 1 spiker that has some defensive merit: omastar, cacturne, maybe roselia, maybe forretress, can fall under this category.

---

Also, how effective spinning is makes a huge difference. An offensive team isn't so dangerous with spikes if they're going to be easily removable. Ultimately I kinda feel like I want it to be easy to get some spikes up but easy to remove them too. It means there's some substantiative game for stall, but offense isn't overpowered with them.

---

After discord discussion, confirming these mons:

Maybe include:

 

[Disaster Area]

I think the next focus points we should talk about are:
Wish / Heal Bell users
Weather Abusers

 

[Disaster Area]

Cool Wish Users:

I think only Xatu and Flareon make good users of Wish though. Raichu and Clef don't have great defensive typings and Raichu is pretty frail. Absol is also kinda frail and its more notable really for its high attack stat (but no stab) however it does have wish + bp. I feel like Wish wouldn't really see use on Absol. It could also lead to BP cheese. Xatu is kind of like a mini-espeon: ok-ish speed and SpA (95 each --- this being said, outspeeds EVERYTHING so far so that's a big issue), Psychic / Flying is an interesting but weak typing, and it has CM / Wish / BP which it can run. I think Xatu is a good addition if we make sure to have checks and counters to it.

My thoughts
Shouldn't have:

everything else I think should be discussed under diff contexts or in greater detail. I feel like Xatu would be a good addition BUT we need to seriously talk about checks and counters for it first.

Heal Bell / Aromatherapy users:

also note: we already have altaria which has heal bell
these are all interesting; picked stuff I didn't think would be too over/underpowered. Plume is neat: unique typing for a cleric, a bit slow but it also does sunnybeam stuff; sleep powder, good enough stats all round. Definitely think it has a place. It's also a great response to any leech seed users. Amphy is interesting: again, electric ain't a great defensive typing and all. I think with amphy we should decide when we talk specificlaly about electric types. Granbull is neat, although we'll need to make sure to include solid responses to bulk up, cb, and subpunch sets if we include it. Definitely a cool mon. Cowtank is great with its wide movepool, heal bell and milk drink. I think it's one we should revisit later, I dunno about it. Chime's stats are a bit lackluser but psychic is a strong typing and it has a decently wide movepool. I'd like to include it.

My thoughts:
Should have:

everything else I want more opinions on :L

Chlorophyll Abusers:
with these I feel quite a few would compete a lot with vileplume: either outclass or be outclassed by it. I think it might be cool to add plume's evolutionary counterpart though,

it isn't that strong, more of a bulky grass type but without aroma unfort. will see what other bulky grasses are suggested tho, but with sunnybeam + hp fire synthesis and sleep powder it can function as a sunnybeamer. Does depend on what else we include tho. Pure grass > grass / poison in some ways for that nice ground resist. More one-dimensional than vileplume definitely though.

always felt like a weird design to me lol. Doesn't really need sun except for solarbeam: 110 is gonna outpace everything (hitmonlee is the fastest confirmed mon at 87 spe lol but we probably will include faster stuff... it's all been slow so far). Bad typing, but fast leech seed, sleep powder, swords dance (not much of a physical movepool but it can work lol but probably not in this context) it's interesting. want thoughts on it.

what a weird mon. gets explosion, sd, etc lots of interesting sh1t... iunno tho, feel like it competes a bit with cacturne. doesn't really add much to the meta. also how much explosion do we want? we already have forretress/glalie/muk which can do that (tho ghosts annoy all of them, unlike the shifty tree)

Swift Swim abusers:
we already have Kabutops. Other stuff:

with these it matters a bit what sorts of checks and counters we have. Mantine obviously is more of a special wall but with 80 SpA + 70 Spe I think a swift swim set could be a thing if it doesnt have much competetion for that sort of slot. Kind of a weird mon. Cool tho. Kingdra / Ludi are very strong. Huntail / Gorebyss less so. Comparison. Main diff is stats, and gorebyss can BP amnesia / agility and gorebyss is more powerful on the special side.

I don't think any of the swift swimmers are auto add yet (mantine on its own sounds fun tho)

 

[Disaster Area]

Ok new additions:

new total:

Aggron, Altaria, Ampharos, Azumarill, Banette, Blastoise, Cacturne, Camerupt, Clefable, Crawdaunt, Crobat, Electrode, Exploud, Fearow, Flareon, Forretress, Glalie, Golduck, Granbull, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Huntail, Jumpluff, Kabutops, Kadabra, Kecleon, Lanturn, Magmar, Manectric, Mantine, Meganium, Metang, Muk, Misdreavus, Ninetales, Octillery, Raticate, Sableye, Sandslash, Scizor, Scyther, Sharpedo, Shedinja, Shiftry, Steelix, Torkoal, Vileplume, Wailord, Whiscash, Xatu

took a long time talking about it on discord with IHLP and sunny. But that's the final 50!

 

[Disaster Area]

This is now playable on the PP server!

 

[Disaster Area]

Update:
Removed Xatu and replaced with

Xatu had a limited pool of checks and counters as it was, is very fast, and can CM away vs all of its response.

 

[Paraplegic]

#free sceptile

 

[Disaster Area]

- Can run subpunch sets and cb sets, has tools like twave and protox, taunt, roar, and special moves are cool too. Bulky Water-types (such as Blastoise, Whiscash, Wailord, Golduck, Huntail, Azumarill are all possibilities) make decent checks, as well as Ground-types such as Sandslash, and maybe Steel-types such as Metang. Bulkier Grass-types like Meganium and Vileplume are decent checks too.

- has a wide movepool. Dragon Dance, Rest+Natural Cure, Heal Bell, Roar, Perish Song, and a variety of physical and special moves (although HP Flying is its primary STAB option). Dragon + Fire overage gives perfect neutral coverage. Again, bulky Water-types make good checks, and in addition, Clefable is a solid answer, with Ice Beam and Softboiled. Moderately bulky Pokemon with Ice-type moves and no hugely exploitable weaknesses, such as Glalie, is a possibility too.

It does feel like, with Altaria and Aggron in the metagame, that a bulky Water-type is almost necessary, although maybe Meganium / Vileplume + Clefable is an alternative possibility.

- Ampharos is a slower, slightly bulkier Electric-type, than Electrode and Manetric, with access to additional coverage in Fire Punch, and Heal Bell and dual screens are cool choices too.

- Azumarill's primarily draw is as a powerhouse with a Water typing. Huge Power bolstered by a Choice Band makes it a hard hitter, whilst Drum sets could potentially blow through certain teams if set up well. It's definitely more of a niche choice, but it could potentially be devastating.

- One of the 3 spinblockers (alongside Misdreavus and Sableye), it is about the only thing to really use a physical ghost-type STAB effectively. Shadow Ball plus Hidden Power Fighting gives it perfect neutral coverage. However, it is very frail. It could be an interesting choice in the metagame but it's not a user-friendly Pokemon.

- Blastoise has a couple of interesting tools, most particularly Rapid Spin (and Foresight), although Roar and Haze are notable too. Being a bulky water-type with Rapid Spin makes it a likely first choice for a spinner, although other bulky water-types such as Golduck, Mantine, and Whiscash which have other draws.

- Cacturne has a unique typing and Spikes, but is pretty frail. Still, it's a decent Psychic-type response if they don't carry an ice- or fire-type move (kadabra being more likely to carry one of these however) as well as checking Electric-types using Hidden Power Grass (besides Fire Punch Ampharos and Ice Beam Lanturn...)

- The camel has a number of cool tools. Its dual STABs are decent, with Altaria and Water-types being the most typical switch-ins. Explosion is an awesome move too - being able to bait-explode on Water-types is cool, albeit Torkoal can do that too, and is also a Fire-type. With its Ground typing, it is a great response to Electric-types, with its secondary Fire typing making it not weak to HP Grass or HP Ice or Fire Punch, albeit the presumably rare HP Water would take it out easily. Whilst it's slow and a little frail, it has a good enough typing and offensive and defensive stats to be an effective Pokemon.

- One of three Psychic-types, alongside Kadabra and Metang, it's the only bulky, specially offensive Psychic-type in the tier. Levitate is neat, as is Heal Bell, and it can effectively use Calm Mind. It has a number of utility moves, but coverage-wise has to rely on Hidden Power and possibly Shock Wave.

- Clefable is very neat. Softboiled with only a Fighting-type weakness, combined with a wide movepool and a number of utility moves, and the ability to go physical or special. Calm Mind, Belly Drum, Thunder Wave, Dual Screens, Wish, Sing... definitely a Pokemon which can adapt well to the metagame and likely to be a top contender as a consequence.

- Crawdaunt's main draw is its typing: a Water / Dark-type is a decent defensive typing and oftena good check to Psychic-types. It's a decent Choice Band user. Probably a bit player in the meta.

- The second-fastest Pokemon in the metagame behind Electrode, and decent enough power, and a good check to Fighting- and Grass-types. An effective revenge killer.

- Electrode is the fastest Pokemon, and has a few cool tools. Rain Dance, Taunt, and Explosion are neat. Probably its best role is on rain teams as a fast rain setter, cleaner, and explosion lure for rain checks such as Lanturn and Meganium. Probably a relevant Pokemon to consider.

- The main sell of Exploud is power: it has plenty of it, on both the physical and special side. Soundproof gives it a Roar immunity too. Could be a good AgiliPass recipient. I'm not sure how relevant it will be.

- Steel- and Rock-types make the best checks to Choice Band Fearow. It could do a decent amount of damage, as it has good Speed, and good dual STABs. Quick Attack is cool, as is Baton Pass, as is Agility. Probably a solid pick.

- Flareon is a curious choice. Monstrous attack - base 130 - but no STAB on it. Decent Special attack - 95 - but limited coverage options. Great Special Defense - 110 - but low HP and Defense. Cool utility moves in Roar and Wish. It could definitely adapt to the metagame but it could struggle if it doesn't find an effective niche for it.

- A big player in the metagame. A Spiker with a good typing, Rapid Spin, Toxic immunity, great defensive stats, a deep movepool, Explosion... the metagame has a reliable, defensive Spiker, and that is Forretress.

- The offensive Spikes user. Has good speed, has Taunt, has Explosion, has a good offensive typing, has decent enough all-round stats. It's definitely a very viable choice, mainly thanks to its speed in combination with Spikes.

- Golduck is an awesome Pokemon, kind of like Suicune. In fact, it has the same speed and more special attack than suicune. Whilst it has less bulk, it is a less bulky metagame. It has Calm Mind, and whilst it doesn't have Roar like Suicune, it has HYPNOSIS, as well as Substitute and Rest, and whilst it doesn't have Pressure as an ability, Damp is pretty neat actually - imagine a Suicune you cannot Explode on!! I definitely think Golduck is going to be a top Pokemon in the metagame.

- Granbull is interesting. Great power in 120, good physical bulk with 90/75 + Intimidate. Normal is a great STAB. Access to SubPunch... and Heal Bell and Roar? Also Bulk Up, Taunt, and Thunder Wave. It definitely could be interesting but it might struggle itself to differentiate itself from Pokemon such as Exploud, Clefable, and Raticate, which can do similar things.

- Hitmonlee is interesting. It's the only Rapid Spinner faster than every Ghost-type. However (like Banette) it is pretty frail. I'm not sure how relevant it will end up being but it has some potential.

- The other notable hitmon. It's slower, bulkier, has Intimidate, and of course also has Rapid Spin. Probably going to be viable but not necessarily great.

- One of 3 Swift Swimmers, alongside Kabutops and Mantine. It's quite slow when out of rain, but has decent stats all round, and Baton Pass. Could definitely be cool, although nowhere near as overwhelming as in ADV NU.

- Not sure what this really does, but has great speed, sleep powder, subseed, chlorophyll on top of its hilariously high speed, encore, swords dance, stun spore, ... it's probably one of the least straightforward Pokemon to use but it has a number of fascinating tools.

- Pretty interesting Pokemon. Has Swift Swim, has Swords Dance and Rock-type STAB, has EndFlail, and Rapid Spin. It's one of few Rock- and Steel-types, namely the best responses to a number of offensive Normal-types such as Fearow and Raticate.

- Kadabra is very frail but fast and powerful. It has a cool movepool but its frailty might make it very difficult to use. It could be interesting, but it's not going to be a top player.

- For those not familiar with the gecko, its main role is as a special wall with Thunder Wave, Trick, the novelty of Colour Change which can at times be useful, although ultimately it very much risks being overshadowed by Clefable.

- Lanturn is an awesome special tank, a check to rain teams, and to electric types. Its middling speed and defense are a little problematic, but it has massive HP. Volt Absorb is also a neat tool.

- Magmar has good speed, good special attack, okay attack, a decent STAB, although Thunder Punch is really the extent of its coverage. Maybe a dark horse? I'm not sure how effective it will be.

- Manectric is the metagame's default fast Electric-type. Crunch, Roar, and the quirky Refresh are interesting possibilities, as well as the typical additional tools of an offensive, fast Electric-type in Thunder Wave, Toxic, Protect, Substitute, Rain Dance, and Thunder, and an uninteresting ability in Static, although it could have some cool uses against physical offensive teams, with its Flying- and Steel-type resistances. 105 Speed is good, as is 105 Special Attack. It's going to be a decent pick, but maybe not a top one.

- Mantine is a curious Pokemon too. It has mammoth Special Defense, and curiously it has okay speed and special attack. Could it be a threat in the rain? ... maybe? Huntail is the obvious choice but it could work. Its typing has its upsides and downsides, but it's difficult to take down if you lack a strong physical attacker or electric-type coverage, although additionally Toxic could be problematic for it. It could be a strong choice in the metagame but it does depend on what threats turn out to be most key.

- Meganium is a contender as a key defensive Pokemon, a check to SD Sandslash, Water-types, Electric-types, and Rock-types all in one with great mixed defensive stats as well as decent speed and access to Leech Seed. Probably one of the better Pokemon available in the metagame.

- Metang might have a difficult time differentiating itself from other Steel-types: aggron is much more powerful, and Steelix has an Electric-type immunity. It does however have a fighting-type neutrality, Explosion (unlike Aggron), dual screens, Agility, and a special STAB, but its lackluster stats will almost certainly hold it back. Whether it will even be viable remains to be seen; it could definitely end up being replaced if it turns out to not be sufficiently viable.

- Muk is pretty neat. It's specially tanky, it's physically strong, it has Curse, it has Explosion. Sticky Hold could be neat; there's numerous Pokemon in the tier that learn Knock Off, but how many of them will use it? Fire Blast and Giga Drain are cool special moves and it just about has the SpAtk to pull them off with specific targets in mind (Forretress and Whiscash). It has some other moves that it isn't as well suited to, but it could definitely explore a number of options depending on how the tier shapes out. Quite possibly a top Pokemon in the tier.

- One of the two bulky spinblockers. Levitate is neat, but its power and defense are both pretty lackluster; it's forced to use non-STAB attacks off of 85 SpA, possibly with Calm Mind boosts. It could definitely be an effective spinblocker - but what will it do beyond that?

- Ninetales has good speed - good stats across the board in fact - and some interesting moves. Flash Fire certainly isn't an entirely useless ability either. Roar, Will-O-Wisp, Grudge, and Spite are all neat moves that make up somewhat for its lack of coverage beyond STAB moves and Hidden Power. Amongst the fray of Fire-types though, how will it stand out?

- Octillery is without a doubt one of the worst choices in the metagame, particularly with the departure of Xatu. Nonetheless, it has good attacking stats and Suction Cups, and there are a couple of agility-passers in the tier... combine that with a massively deep movepool, at least coverage-wise, and it has the potential to cause some shenanigans, but one wonders what it will in the end have going for it beyond surprise value.

- An interesting physical attacker, it struggles to compete with the likes of Fearow and Exploud, but it has some awesome tricks up its sleeve. Alongside good speed and attack, Guts makes it a powerful exploiter of status, particularly with a hard-hitting Choice Band set. Endure+Reversal is an entirely different approach, although one where it faces more competition. Cool stallbreaking moves such as Taunt and Super Fang are neat, but not best suited to its stats.

- Sableye is probably the most straightforward spinblocker to use. It has Recover, it has a Dark typing giving it a Psychic-type immunity and no weaknesses, it has Knock Off, it has the attack to just about make use of Shadow Ball, and some other moves such as Taunt and Calm Mind that could potentially see some use. Probably a solid pick that fills a specific role reliably.

- SD Sandslash could be a bit of a monster. Whilst its speed is lackluster, if that can be made up for with paralysis support, there is little that comfortably takes it on besides Meganium. Still, the plethora of Water-types in the tier, and strong special attackers can help keep it at bay. Its ability to run Rapid Spin is neat too, especially as with Swords Dance it can easily pressure the spinblockers, maybe better than any other spinner.

- Scizor is a cool Pokemon, sporting Swords Dance and Agility alongside Morning Sun or Baton Pass, as well as EndRev and a typing that offers it a number of resistances. Unfortunately for it, Fire-type coverage moves are a common occurance in the tier when teams try and prevent Forretress from being able to Spike up on it. Nonetheless, it has some cool tools and good stats, so it'd be surprising if it couldn't do something of use in this metagame.

- Scyther has almost exactly the same set of tools as Scizor. The main difference is higher speed, Flying-type STAB, and a much worse defensive typing. Still, Baton Pass and EndRev sets both look viable on it, and the EndRev set has the advantage of a Spikes immunity and higher speed.

- Sharpedo is a fast Crawdaunt without any of the bulk. Whether it can make something happen waits to be seen, but it really is a glass cannon.

- The classic Shedinja is present in this metagame. With (almost) no Pursuit or Sand, Sheddy only has to worry about Spikes, super-effective attacks, and status. Therefore, if you can keep Spikes off, then there's a number of common Pokemon and sets most likely which it can wall practically indefinitely. It's curious to see whether or not it turns out to be a gimmick; it's a noob-trap and not user-friendly, but it undoubtedly has real potential in this metagame.

- Shiftry has physical and special power, chlorophyll, a wide physical and special movepool, letting it run Explosion, SunnyBeam, Swords Dance with Brick Break and HP Ghost, or maybe use its Dark-type STAB or even defensive options like Leech Seed. It's somewhat frail, albeit not in comparison to the numerous wet paper bags in the tier.

- The metal snake has monstrous defense, usable attack and special defense, and a good typing. It absolutely is a viable and strong choice in the metagame, and the sturdiest response to most physical attackers, although it does definitely have exploitable weaknesses and a liability to being worn down, but noone can deny its utility or amazing potential in this metagame. Likely a top or near-to-the-top Pokemon.

- Probably the biggest draw is that high defense, and curse+explosion, two things no other fire-types have. White Smoke is also neat for its intimidate immunity. Unfortunately it doesn't learn rapid spin until generation 4. It definitely could be a viable contender in the tier, though with the numerous fire-types available it will definitely have to fight to earn a slot on players' teams.

- Vileplume competes with Meganium in a lot of ways defensively; its Poison-typing is a double edged sword: no Ground resistance is horrible versus Sandslash, but the Toxic immunity is very beneficial. Its access to Aromatherapy is handy too. Its good attacking stats on either side give it the ability to effectively run Swords Dance or SunnyBeam sets, and has Sleep Powder and Synthesis of note too. Also the lack of a good move such as Earthquake to complement Sludge Bomb on Swords Dance sets presents an issue, but it's definitely got potential nonetheless. Probably a decent pick in the metagame, but whether it or meganium comes out on top as the superior grass-type, and by how much, is a very interesting question.

- The exploding whale has mammoth HP, poor defenses and speed, and okay offenses. It has a deep movepool with everything from Explosion to Water Spout to Curse to Roar... Water Veil is also a neat ability, granting it an immunity to burns, such as from Ninetales' Will-O-Wisp, which might try and neuter it on the switch-in. Whilst it's a difficult Pokemon to maybe make effective use of initially - it's not very player-friendly - it almost certainly has the tools to be a major force in the metagame if used well.

- Whiscash is the necessary defensive Water/Ground-type of the metagame. With Aggron, Altaria, Kabutops, Electric-types, Fire-types, Ground-types, Curse Muk, and others, it certainly has a role as a major defensive pivot in the tier. That being said it is definitely fairly easy to wear down and probably quite lurable too. Nevertheless expect it to be a popular and viable Pokemon in the tier.

 

[Disaster Area]

Also changes I'm thinking about but don't want to spend much time thinking about these things really cos it's best to play the game.

Possible removals:

- mostly stuff I feel doesn't necessarily have enough of a niche. Some other things are possibilites here too.

Possible additions:

- would it outclass jumpluff? And would it be too strong?

- Would it have a niche, compared with Kabutops and Aggron for example. Typing blows.

- potential additional rock and grass type. Weird but ultimately not that good of a typing. Not sure about it. Recover with that bulk could also be a sort of an issue.

- I don't like the sprite and I don't know if it would be too fast and versatile and stuff

- why not i guess? strange pokemon design

- if someone knows a niche for it, it could be added

- kind of cool on rain teams. Beats sun setters and abuses rain well, I like the Rain Dance / Weather Ball / Thunder / Ice Beam set.

- well it has intimidate and heal bell but it's kinda dong
a rock/ground type? graveler/golem/pupitar all relevant choices I guess.
a water/ice type? lapras/walrein are far too strong, but what about sealeo or dewgong?

 

[Enigami]

- Entirely dependent on the strength of Psychics and Ghosts. If they're major players in the tier, having a physical attacking Dark-type Pokemon that is neutral to special coverage could be a noteworthy niche, and Heal Bell is neat too. Otherwise, bad stats with bad movepool.

- Fake Out, Encore and Perish Song are all fun moves to play with and that along with Ice Typing (with Thick Fat to retain Fire resistance) helps to separate it from the other bulky Waters available. Me like.

- Pretty much an inferior Dewgong, it'd be dependent on either Dewgong being to strong for the tier somehow or Curse working out for it despite its low Attack stat.

Gonna put more thought into the others, but please no Sceptile, do we really want its annoying SubSeed garbage here?

A few candidates I'd like to propose:

- Stat-wise an inferior Manectric, but comes with some interesting supportive movepool options like Encore, Light Screen, Wish, Baton Pass, Agility. Baton Pass is probably the biggest difference, helping to grab momentum and allow it to support the team with Agility or Sub+Pinch Berry passing. Light Screen paired with Plusle's limited but functional SpD can let it take a hit or two from Special Attackers while supporting teammates, and its fast Wish can provide limited cleric support to teammates, which can be made easier to accomplish with Encore or Light Screen. It also gets Seismic Toss, which provides reliable damage against any Electric resists Plusle's Hidden Power doesn't cover well enough, and for example allows HP Ice Plusle to wear down Lanturn a bit faster than HP Ice Manectric can with Crunch. I chose Plusle here over Minun because the power difference is important for a number of KOs that I could see and they both have garbage bulk anyway.

- One thing I found interesting before was that Fire coverage covered all Spike setters, was that not the intention? If we're bringing up alternative spikers like Qwilfish, Omanyte could provide an interesting one with it exploiting Normal-types like Fearow to set spikes or make use of its high SpA and strong STAB.

- Physically quite bulky despite being an NFE and has some useful resistances, and can support with Wish / Roar or go on the offensive with Dragon Dance and its decent Attack stat (though coverage is somewhat limited).

 

[Disaster Area]

talk about the metagame here Discord

 

[Disaster Area]

Having had a vote on the ADV 50 Discord chat, these changes are being made:

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[Disaster Area]

These votes haven't quite been up 24h but they're clearly decided so:

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[Disaster Area]

Conclusion of the vote on Discord:
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[Enigami]

Talked with DA about current changes with the meta, and some C Ranks are being looked at for removal. Some candidates I'd proposed are Dunsparce and Koffing which looked interesting, while DA proposed Armaldo. Dewgong also seems worth looking at, as does the bigger and badder Walrein. These candidates are now playable in ADV 50 for testing purposes, but there are no official changes to ADV 50 right now.

Possible removals:

Additions of interest:

- Very similar to and nearly outclassed by Clefable as a bulky Normal-type, were it nor Curse and Serene Grace. Not only does Clefable lack Serene Grace, but other Curse-users also have Special-based weaknesses that Dunsparce does not have. Serene Grace also allows Dunsparce to function differently from Clefable even when using Special based sets, using Thunders to damage and spread status at the same time which can be backed by the other elemental attacks as well. Dunsparce is also bulky enough that it can get away with Rest depending on the enemy team, which isn't bad considering Toxic's heavy use. I think non-cancerous Dunsparce might be something worth exploring even with Clefable around. Or if you're feeling evil you can just go with Headbutt/Rock Slide/Thunder Wave. From testing, the Curse set at least looks potent enough to be viable.

Spoiler: Sample Set - Curse Dunsparce

Dunsparce @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 136 SpD / 16 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Body Slam
- Flamethrower
- Curse
- Rest

Speed EVs are for outspeeding Forretress before using Curse despite hindering nature so Flamethrower is not hindered and has a guaranteed 2HKO on max SpD Forretress.

Spoiler: Sample Set - Calm Mind Dunsparce

Dunsparce @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Flamethrower / Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Rest

Thunder for 60% para chance. Flamethrower makes short work of spike setters, and provides coverage for everything outside of Golem, Whiscash, Lanturn and Camerupt, of which the former two don't enjoy the 20% chance of burn. Ice Beam covers everything except Lanturn, but the 20% freeze chance can give Dunsparce an opening to bust through anyway especially if Dunsparce has Calm Minds built up.

Spoiler: Sample Set - Smogon Set

Dunsparce @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 204 HP / 136 Atk / 64 Def / 104 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Headbutt
- Rock Slide
- Shadow Ball
- Body Slam / Thunder Wave

Classic paraflinch cancer.

- Great stats behind slow Speed and a mediocre typing. Slidequake coverage backed by SD alongside Rapid Spin.

/

-Bulky Thick Fat Ice/Waters with Encore. Walrein is questionable with its really high bulk and Curse possibly making it too much of a threat, while Dewgong's lack of it means its Ice STAB, Encore and Perish Song have to be worthwhile enough to use over other Waters.

- Low stats, but still has physical bulk backed by a really good typing/ability combo. Nice movepool too, with Will-O-Wisp, a number of support moves, and Fire Blast to make spikers think twice even without any investment. From testing so far, it looks slightly usable, but it struggles a lot when the opponent has a Fire-type, and special attackers just blow right through it.

Spoiler: Sample Set - Will-O-Wisp Support

Koffing @ Leftovers (or no item)
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature / Lax Nature / Relaxed Nature
- Fire Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Explosion / Pain Split / Memento / Toxic / Sludge Bomb
- Toxic / Sludge Bomb / Thief

Dump Speed EVs into Defense if running Relaxed, those are for outspeeding Forretress but probably isn't worth the investment with a hindering nature. SpD hindering nature is because Koffing's SpD already blows, and against invested Special Attackers Koffing won't last anyway. Fire Blast to roast Forretress, Will-O-Wisp since that's one of 2 reasons why you aren't just running Muk. Explosion isn't terribly strong, but can still put a big dent in or even KO uninvested Pokemon. Toxic or Sludge Bomb helps Koffing to hurt Fire-types that otherwise have little problem switching into it. Pain Split extends Koffing's longevity. Memento provides an opening for a setup sweeper. Toxic and Sludge Bomb are primarily for hitting Fire-types that would otherwise freely come in on Koffing. Thief gives a bit of extra annoyance, stripping a hopefully important item just before a kamikaze.

I'd like to hear your opinions on other worthwhile candidates to test out, as well as other Pokemon in the tier that aren't effective enough and should be cut.

 

[Disaster Area]

Following a vote on the Discord server, these changes have been made:
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[Disaster Area]

2 changes have been approved via discord vote

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