RBY OU Rhydon's 4th Moveslot

[Erzengel]

Greetings everyone, I would like to start a rather unusual discussion topic. The topic is as all of you who aren't blind are able to see the 4th moveslot of Rhydon and a bit of research really got me thinking about this.
Normally substitute is taken every time in this slot however I found using it myself much fewer times than I initially thought and I dont see it subbing up often in official tours either.

For the most part Rhydon is played with twave support so it evens out the lack of speed that rhydon posseses so it can dish out some juicy damage without being punished. This makes it worth less to click substitute as you would like much rather to get some hits out. It doesn't force a lot of switches and if it does the opponent usually still has an exeggutor or a starmie left. If he doesnt then subbing up usually just delays your damage or you may get a lucky break and sub up on a para which is the first reason that I think is a good reason to run it.
However you also avoid to use substitute if your opponent hasnt shown all his mons since you want to remain as healthy as possible if he hides an electric mon. If he has already shown it then all the more reason to preserve hp.

By no means I want to say that substitute is a bad option I just think that there may be more options to Rhydon than most people including me think nowadays. I've found some interesting options which I'll list below:


- Hyper Beam
Teams that hugely profit from exeggutor being gone would probably really like this option. It really only hits exeggutor however when you run Rhydon you will hit an exeggutor probably every battle at least once or twice. Hyper Beam deals about 10% more damage than Rock Slide which makes the difference between switching out once more or killing the eggy. eggy being scary when low due to opponent clicking explosion or predicting that you're staying in on the explo is one more reason for you to try to kill it asap.
I don't see it being super useful but I would find it justifiable to run it on certain teamcomps that appreciate eggy being gone. Also if you ever have to debate between eq'ing a grounded mon and rock sliding a flying mon that could switch in on eq and then revenge you then hyper beam could be a good option to click there.

- Stomp
This is so unexplored it's not even on the damage calc. Honestly I think this has the potential to turn games around. Para + 30%flinch chance is nothing new however I have never seen it being abused in this scenario. Imagine a para'd starmie coming in on you that you can't 2hko the majority of the time, 15-18% free damage on an eggy. This is the difference between opening up the game for rhydon or still trying to do so.

- Rest
I really like this option seeing that some teams, especially with electrics sometimes struggle to get chip dmg on or defeat Rhydon. Seismic toss reflect chansey also is getting more popular and I've also seen some mono-normal laxs running around. This is great against all of them. Forcing lax to eq if they have it is great too due to not wanting to switch your pokemon into a stab bodyslam into a chance of para.



I don't want to elaborate more on this because I think I made my point. Just to repeat, I don't think substitute is bad by any means, I just think that there may be better options sometimes if youre considering your overall team choice. I'm mostly not sure on this myself and the reason of me posting this is to draw in second opinions that tell me that im hugely delusional on this matter or if there may be sense in adapting your Rhydon to your team once in a while. Other move suggestions are also appreciated as well as explanations why sub is 100% always the right move are.

Have a nice day cya

 

[Enigami]

Not all that unusual. Substitute is easily Rhydon's best 4th, and there really isn't much that can KO Rhydon from 75% that couldn't already from 100%, so you can afford to sub up once with little penalty. But other moves have been looked at and even used from time to time. Leer is one you missed, it can help to crack open a Chansey behind Reflect, and if I remember right it was used and was a factor in winning a recent tournament match (can't remember details).

Rest Rhydon is one I've used before, and my favorite 4th move that isn't substitute. Not only does it completely screw over SToss Chansey and MonoLax, but Gengar without Mega Drain, Zapdos, and Jolteon as well. You also can afford to be a bit more ballsy vs. stuff like Exeggutor (without Mega Drain) and Alakazam since you have the option to Rest off the damage later and deny those things it walls any hope of doing anything. The big problem is that Rest is an invitation for Tauros to come in, and nothing wants to switch into Tauros, so once Rhydon uses Rest it's going to have a really hard time waking Rhydon up without losing something.

Hyper Beam smacking Eggy is nice, but I can't remember the last time I found myself with Rhydon vs. Exeggutor and having it just in range of the HB but not any other attacking move. Rest might be more useful as an Anti-Exeggutor 4th move, since you can stay in on a Psychic or two (or better yet a Normal move or especially Explosion on a failed prediction) and find an opening to Rest later and break your opponents' hopes and dreams if they have any of that stuff Rhydon walls.

Blizzard is an unconventional 4th option, as it gives you a "blanket" coverage move vs. Zapdos. They aren't switching Ice-types into an expected Rock Slide, so if they switch out, you get a 9% chance to freeze whatever comes in. If Rhydon switches in expecting Rock Slide, well, 9% freeze chance + now their Rhydon is in your EQ range. If a paralyzed Pokemon comes in, odds are its something weak that they are sacking because nothing that's paralyzed wants to switch into Rhydon (except maybe paralyzed Eggy), so odds are you're KOing whatever came in next turn anyway. And if it is paralyzed Exeggutor that comes in, Blizzard 4HKOs the same as Rock Slide, so you're still covered there. Body Slam is usually better because of 30% chance of paraslam vs. 9% chance of freeze, but Normal-types are immune to paraslam, and Blizzard always has that 9% chance to swing a game around if you're facing a healthy Slowbro or Snorlax while you're behind.

Stomp though... the issue is while the odds of Paraflinch is higher, the reward for an enemy FP while you set up Substitute is twice as good or better because of just how much harder STAB EQ/RS hits compared to Stomp. Tauros is probably the only Pokemon I really see getting mileage out of Stomp, due to STAB and the large amount of slower Pokemon Tauros can attempt to flinch-hax in a tight spot even if they aren't paralyzed.

 

[Ortheore]

Also worth mentioning that Sub is a nightmare for SToss Chansey as well. Even with Reflect up, Rhydon 4HKOs, while Chansey needs two STosses to break Don's Sub. This means that Chansey struggles to wear Don down, while Don is also decent at forcing Chansey to recover, making for even more opportunities to spam EQ. Between paralysis and the risk of a crit (although Don's crit rate is bad it gets that many EQs against SToss Chans that it becomes a very significant risk), it stands a pretty decent chance of haxing its way through RaishSey.

Rest I think is a legit option and is absolutely worth using.

Hyper Beam is way too niche imo. It's literally useful against one target when it's at a very specific %. Also I feel like the idea of using Don to get rid of Egg for something else is a little backwards, since Don is usually the reason why a team would place extra emphasis on getting rid of Egg. The exception to this is BroDon teams, because Egg is just such a pain in the ass for Bro. Even there I don't think HB is worth it.

Stomp is just... idk. I don't think the odds of immobilising the opp are worth the reduced damage output- the opponent still has a 52.5% chance of attacking you, and usually Don will take a decent chunk of damage due to its many weaknesses

I don't like the idea of Blizzard being a one-size-fits-all attack because Rock Slide already does a pretty decent job of this and the damage is just much more reliable and valuable- the only relevant things that resist RSlide are GolDon. Then again, I've not used it, so idk

Idk much about Leer. I'm sceptical of whether it's worth it against Chansey because Sub is already pretty fantastic, idk about Lax though. You're probably better off attacking?

 

[Dre89]

Getting rid of egg is valuable because everything else will take big damage switching into rhydon in the future.

Another option is dropping body slam and running a sub-rest set. Big thing is losing the ability to paralyse starmie on the switch though.

 

[magic9mushroom]

- Rest

Yeah, I like this. It's not useful every game*, but when it is it's hilarious.

*It has the same switch-into-Tauros tax as Rest Jynx, so it's most useful as a counter to sweeper threats such as Reflect Chansey and TankLax (at least, the varieties of same that are walled). Only bring in Rhydon after they've set up (and you've had your go at trying to KO them during setup).

Between paralysis and the risk of a crit (although Don's crit rate is bad it gets that many EQs against SToss Chans that it becomes a very significant risk), it stands a pretty decent chance of haxing its way through RaishSey.

You do have to paralyse the RaishSey first if you want to use paralysis against it, since Rhydon can't with its standard moves (and using Tbolt for para is sad anyway when Rhydon could be using Blizzard or Ice Beam).

 

[Erzengel]

Thanks for the quick and elaborate responses

If I may draw a conclusion I think Rest is a good option to take especially when one of your other teammembers takes a more offensive approach or misses a defensive moveslot to deal with, lets say, jolteon better. Outlasting your opponent is great too, I like the comment on mononormallax since I've recently had this MU vs Rhydon and my opponent was probably crying (no guarantee but the chances are high poggers).

Hyper Beam was probably stupid to think of to begin with as your team is either build around rhydon to get eggy out of the way or you literally just click on "Golem" instead of "Rhydon".

Tauros with Stomp is something ive neglected until now however I can see it being useful, even more with paraspam,
I may drop eq sometime to try it.

Thanks to Ore for explaining better when or how to use sub I probably didn't get the overall gist of it but it seems I'm not the only one that mostly dislikes to use sub more than once.

Blizzard and Leer are low-to-no niche options however I can see Leer being useful when most things are para'd and you're facing a reflect chansey or lax. I guess Sub has a good MU against those as well so might as well run Sub?

Thanks Enigami for going a bit deeper on what Rest Rhydon does. Most Gengars seem to run night shade, sometimes stoss nowadays so Rhydon may be a better switchin to it than it once was. Tauros being able to come in on Rhydon sure is unfortunate however there may be enough counterplay when you run one of the more usual Rhydon teamcomps that feature starmie eggy reflectlax.

 

[Enigami]

Oh, didn't mean to suggest Blizzard or Leer are good. It's more like Sub > Rest >>>>>> Blizzard / Leer / HB / IB / Stomp

 

[Dre89]

Oh, didn't mean to suggest Blizzard or Leer are good. It's more like Sub > Rest >>>>>> Blizzard / Leer / HB / IB / Stomp

Hyper Beam is definitely definitely in the same tier as rest. Rhydon was my 6th for years and when I ran hyperbeam I used it a lot more than sub. People always switch eggy in unless it’s in KO range and removing the only EQ resist on a team is huge.

I’d say toxic is better then Leer or IB because toxicing egg on the switch puts it on a timer and punishes it for sitting in front of your own egg to try eat its explosion. If you’re running a rhydon and they’re aren’t, then trading eggs is a positive exchange for you.

 

[marcoasd]

Substitute is just too good, all of the mentioned moves are unreliable at best. I don't even know which one of Body Slam and Substitute should be dropped, in case.

Counter is the move I would put my money on: it's obviously unexpected and it comes with the highest reward in specific (rare) scenarios, after Explosion causes a KO; countering Tauros' CH Hyper Beam is rare as well but it's 80%+ on it.