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RBY OU / 1U (OverUsed) Remove Sleep and Freeze Clause, and ban Reflect

Discussion in 'Analysis and Research' started by Dre89, Apr 30, 2019.

  1. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    But as you said, you can still theoretically have a team of perfect Pokémon on a cartridge, but you can’t have a freeze clause. A simulator is only meant to simulate a cartridge experience, not a ‘realistic’ one. That gets too arbitrary and subjective.
     
  2. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    1 minute to catch a pokémon? Ok, for event encounters, maybe it's fine (I'll discuss it later). For the rest, you actually need to find the correct pokémon and catch it. In the case of Tauros (Safari Zone), that means a 11% of chance to encounter a pokémon on every step. After you faced a lot of Nidorans and random pokémons, you will find a Tauros that you might catch (10% of chance that this encounter will be a Tauros). Roughly, when you take a step on the grass, you have 0,00017% of chance that you will find the Tauros of your dreams (and remember, you have 500 steps on every time you enter Safari Zone, including those you need to go to a tall grass located at Center Area (East)/Area 3 where you can actually find a Tauros). And, to find a Tauros, it's about 1,1% of chance per step (roughly, you need to do about 90 steps to find a Tauros, and so, you can find about 4~5 Tauros per Safari's visit, as you have to discount the steps you take to go to the hunting area).

    So, I'd say that the process of finding and catching a Tauros cannot be made in 1 minute. I would say something about 5 minutes.

    And for other pokémon, you won't be doing on less than one minute as well. The best case is Zapdos. To catch it, you still need to put a status on it, increase your chance by reducing its HP and throwing some Ultra Balls to catch it. And wait for all the animations on the game while doing so. Maybe you'll catch under 1 minute, but probably it will take more time - unless you keep your Master Ball to catch Zapdos, as Mewtwo cannot be used on 1U. In this case, fine, 1 minute is enough time to catch it, but that's the exception, because you only get one Master Ball in the game. For all the pokémon that can only be catch in the wild, the process will take much more time, and despite the fact they have much less IV possibilities, it will be actually much longer than Zapdos case.

    After catching your pokémon, you need to check the IV. Which is not obvious, as most pokémon you catch is on a low level, and IV won't be obvious for every stat (unless you use an external software to see the actual IVs, but that's not just "playing on the cartridge", as you are "hacking" the game - checking on an IV calculator would be the correct way). For many cases, you will need to get some levels to actually know the real IVs of your pokémon (and leveling a pokémon is something that take some time).

    And if you lvl up your pokémon, you'll have to take Stat Exp into account as well (which you'll have to calculate after battle), unless you use Exp All or a strategy that prevents your pokémon to get Stat Exp after battles (that will also make you spend more time). I'm pretty sure you won't be finding the IVs of a lvl 20 pokémon in 1 minute (as uncertainity is usually between 2 consecutive values, you might find it acceptable, but that means you might accept a Tauros with 14 ATK IV, which is not perfect).

    The process is faster for pokémon that you find in an event encounter (such as Zapdos/Articuno/etc), and is slower when you need to find the pokémon in the wild. And due to IV uncertainity on low level pokémon, the process will take more time on pokémon of lower level (and will be faster on pokémon of higher level).

    If I understood correctly, the universe of possible IVs for a pokémon depends on the encounter rate of the hunting area (lower chances means lower possibilities). Caves have a lower encounter rate than grass (for an obvious reason, think about Zubats), and you can only find Golems on caves. Same thing for Gengar and other pokémon that are not found on grass or water.

    And cartridge experience also means uncertainity of finding a pokémon with the correct IVs.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  3. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    I don’t understand why you keep bringing this up. No one is saying it’s easy to get perfect IVs. But it’s possible on a cart, and freeze clause isn’t. That’s what matters.
     
  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    1) Tauros is not one of the Pokemon that can have all possible IVs (except in Japanese Blue), because it's Safari Zone only. I said that a minute is an overestimate for the Pokemon that can have all possible IVs, i.e. ingame trades/ingame events/bought from RGC.

    2) You haven't thought through how to optimise the time. You save right before stepping into the tall grass, and reset immediately if you run out of time.

    1) Zapdos is probably actually the best target for the Master Ball, because it can whack all the users of accurate sleep moves really hard with Drill Peck. Articuno falls to Jynx, Mewtwo to Exeggutor, and Moltres doesn't have any high-BP moves (although you need to outspeed it because of Fire Spin). Of course, grinding makes this moot.

    2) Zapdos is not the best case. The best cases are ingame trades and bought Pokemon.

    3) Checking IVs can also be streamlined. Check IVs, use Rare Candy, check again. Reset (getting the Rare Candy back) if the second check was a bust. Also, because of the way the HP IV works in RBY, "off by one" is not an issue for the Attack and Defence IVs in the first place. There are twelve Rare Candies per game and it's not like you can't trade all your Pokemon away and then reset to get more. In the case of Zapdos, you don't even need to Rare Candy since level 50 forces all IVs to be distinct.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  5. Heroic Troller

    Heroic Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    First, you should discuss of making a mod tier like violet and see how many are interested in playing your even worse rby. Why people would wake one day and make a thread like "clauses were never a thing so we ban them 20 years later for no real reason outside playing real cartridge". Ignoring that real cartridge had no percentages, calculators, replays, cancel button and so on. This is no cartridge, just accept it and go on, there is no point killing a long lasting tier because some of you prefers so.

    Also Orth stop calling other's post rubbish, you made bad posts too in the past.

    So yeah let me know if it's time to quit the tier and go play golf instead
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  6. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Troller made a fair point. We can only take away freeze clause if we take away percents and cancel button. Calculators don't count because you CAN still use those while playing the cartridge game. Only one way to settle this. We play stadium instead.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Lol, "killing" RBY. Freeze Clause was off for ages on Showdown before Smogon's fuckwit staff decided to implement it to appease the whining sheep. It was plenty playable.
    Eh, cancel button is part of interface and doesn't actually change the choices you can input.

    Percents vs. X/48 is a real mod and I'm against it, but I haven't seen any real objections to having X/48 either.
     
  8. Dre89

    Dre89 Member

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    Then let’s just remove percent HP then. Replays don’t affect gameplay so I don’t see how that’s an issue.

    Basically what you’re saying is that because people implemented something incorrectly, we have to leave it that way because people don’t like change. Why can’t we just correct it, seeing as everyone who has actually played without freeze clause wants it removed? The only people who say it’ll ruin the game have never played without it.
     
  9. Heroic Troller

    Heroic Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    I'm saying that there was a choice to try making even this game as competitive as possible. I do like changes when they make sense and are competitive (been asking complex bans for a while). Then again make your simulator and try gather a playerbase around your idea instead of forcing this on others stuff.

    I also am not alone, it's more that i'm probably the only one without enough self-respect to ignore the usual thread that pops out once in a while asking for changes that won't happen anyway.

    If you don't use replays that's your way of doing, stating that they don't matter at all is pretty stupid.

    I think i will just stop trying to argue, because no one ever changes their mind anyway, not even on stuff this obvious, so have fun trying to force your ideology on a simulator that until today was just doing fine this way i guess
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    What? I'm not trying to be dismissive of DarkCyborg, I simply let my emotions get the better of me and I apologised in my very next post in the thread. I'm not acting as though all of my posts are gold standard either.

    This wouldn't kill RBY at all. Triggering a second freeze is still something that's extremely rare and so scrapping freeze clause wouldn't have that big of an impact on competitive play. As for the accepting that we're not playing cart, as it stands that stated goal of simulators is to recreate cart play as much as possible, with added conveniences that would be possible to replicate irl. If we abandon that, why bother half-assing some pretense that we still care about cart? Why not just accept that we're not playing cart and just make Violet the standard tier? I honestly think that would be an improvement over RBY if replicating cart isn't important.
     
  11. DarkCyborg

    DarkCyborg I represent the power of Ice! Member

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    I know, that's what I said: "it works for event encounters". I'm saying that you actually spend more time to obtain pokémon that cannot have all possible IVs, because you have to hunt for it, and hunting takes more time (despite having about 90% less possibilities of what's a "perfect IV").

    Actually, I didn't take safari re-enter when I said that you need about 5 minutes to catch a Tauros, I just mentioned it as something that could make you spend more time. I agree that it can be optimized, but if you take flee rate into account, this timing is still high.

    Yes, that's the reason why I actually mentioned it in the end. In terms of competitive play, Zapdos is the best target for Master Ball (since Mewtwo is banned).

    Taking Master Ball into account, I'd say both methods are close. Anyway, here are the meta relevant 1U pokémon that you can obtain with full IVs, by event/buying/receiving as a gift (i.e: Lapras):

    - Snorlax (event encounter)
    - Zapdos (event encounter)
    - Lapras (gift)
    - Jolteon ("gift")
    - Jynx (in-game trade)
    - Rhydon (in-game trade)
    - Dragonite (evolve lvl 24 Dratini from Game Corner)
    - Alakazam (evolve lvl 15 Abra from Game Corner)
    - Articuno (event encounter)
    - Moltres (event encounter)

    (if I forgot someone, please tell me)

    Sure, for each one of these pokémon, there's 65536 possible combinations, and except for Jynx and Alakazam, ATK IV matters (unless you're considering that you'll never use Body Slam on Lapras), and therefore, there's only one perfect combination for it (15/15/15/15).

    If you need 1 minute to do everything that you said (which is not an exageration Imo), you'll need on average 65536 minutes = 45 days of uninterrupt work. If you are Superman and does not have any fadiga from repeating the same actions for hours, and assuming that you need 1 hour to eat and 8 hours to sleep (and that you don't do anything else on your life besides playing), you'll probably find your perfect Zapdos in 72 days. Excluding Jynx/Alakazam, you'll probably find all these pokémon in about 1 year and 7 months (notice that Snorlax/Moltres/Articuno are here, because you might trade away your perfect Zapdos and reset the game to get another Master Ball - a process that takes some time as well).

    That's the minimum time for someone that have no life besides pokémon and that will need to treat his tendinitis during the process. The real time will probably be much higher than this, I'd say about 3~4 years for a real person (being optimistic). And after that, you'll have 8 perfect pokémons, which is about 40% of all usable pokémon in RBY (assuming Rank D pokémon and above).

    It is a problem if HP IV is uncertain as well. And Rare Candy's strategy is valid, but it might not remove uncertainity (unless you reach a very high level). For in-game trades and event encounters, which you can obtain in a high level is fine, but for pokémon that you cannot obtain above level 30, IV won't always be obvious. Of course, you can make it also faster by discarding pokémon with poor IVs (i.e 0-1 ATK IV Tauros) - and that's something that would make the process faster.

    (also, if you have a DV calculator for RBY and can make it public would be welcome, as I only found GSC after a quick search)

    My point was to discuss if this is viable to do in practice, because if it isn't, then implementing it is just as "wrong" (through your point of view) as Freeze Clause. To be possible and to be viable are different things, and viability matters (in this case, if the intention is to copy the cartridge, I disagree with your point that "to be possible is enough").

    But I think that it's pointless, as the only reason to bring it to discussion is: abolishing Freeze Clause and Sleep Clause is not the only thing you have to consider if you want to make the simulator to reflect the cartridge.

    Percentage and Cancel Button are another relevant thing (you cannot cancel a move on cartridge, and that's how the real game works), as Troller appointed.

    Just to complement, on cartridge, you have to take note on foe's PP usage, because there's no indication of it while you are playing (so, basically, if you want to PP Stall Wrap, you must to count how many times Wrap was used). If you don't take note, you won't know if the enemy's Chansey still have Softboiled - and anyone can use your arguments to say that this is how simulators should be (as this is how you play on cartridge).

    Lastly: emulators that simulate online link exists, roms exists and PikaSAV, which allows you to build the team of your dreams in minutes, exists too. So, if you guys want so bad the cartridge mechanics, why are you guys not already playing?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    No, because 5 x 6500 < 1 * 65536. I think I could do it faster than 5, too.
    I meant that Zapdos is the best target even if you're just playing through cart normally (or if you're building both an OU and Ubers team). You can catch Mewtwo with Ultra Balls, and with a Sleep Powder Exeggutor it's actually hilariously easy.
    Looks about right, although Articuno and Moltres aren't great. Not entirely sure whether fishing can generate all combinations - it can certainly get a really big chunk of them.

    It has been over twenty years since RBY came out, though. It is humanly possible to have done it.

    For ATK and DEF the effect on HP IV is always greater than 1 HP at level 20+. You might not be able to distinguish 1011 from 1100, but you'll always be able to distinguish it from 1111.

    Between the HP IV and polling it twice I think you can nail it down with 1 RC. Special IV might be an exception; I might calculate that out.

    I don't, but the formula's on Bulbapedia; you could reverse-engineer your own easily enough.
    Reductio ad absurdum requires the thing you're reducing to to in fact be absurd. Displaying opponent's HP in pixels isn't absurd.
    Cancel button doesn't change what you know or what you can do, so it doesn't change the game.
    No, you could have a notepad and write it down. The information is there.
    Because emulators are less convenient.
     
  13. Lilyhollow

    Lilyhollow Member

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    Basically the community has shown that it is okay with modding the game, albeit to a very limited degree. The line between that and just modding it however we want is not a line, and it's in fact completely subjective as you've suggested, but basically the model has worked even though some people like me see it as being contradictory. It's only once in a while that someone actually sincerely suggests modding the game further than just sleep/freeze clause, so in that sense there's no problem (assuming the paraslam thing doesn't escalate).

    The purist part of my brain has an issue with Smogon purporting to be a site for competitive pokemon while actually modding the game in some ways, instead of just being upfront about that. There are plenty of contradictions like that in the community, like GSC Snorlax being cool but stuff that's laughably less powerful getting banned elsewhere for being 'uncompetitive.' Personally the easiest way for me to come to terms with the endless contradictions was to step away and literally make stuff of my own.
     
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  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    Uh, actually most of the "community" simply has inertia in general. The "community" didn't institute Freeze Clause on Showdown, M Dragon unilaterally did and told anyone disagreeing to stuff it. Since then there's been no significant environment without it and people have bought the nonsense justifications out of lack of experience.

    There has never been any serious argument for Freeze Clause. It's obviously wrong and slightly less obviously unnecessary. The correct thing to do is to ram a Freeze-Clause-less meta down people's throats until they notice that it works, just like Wrap was.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
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  15. Roostur

    Roostur Member

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    Doesn't stadium get rid of everything we don't like about gen 1? Seriously, why don't we just play that? Wouldn't all these conversations be meaningless if we just played stadium?
     
  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Why does cancel button keep being brought up? It literally has no bearing on your choices in a match- no extra information, no influencing your choices or their outcomes. If you were to play on cart just take an extra 30s to think your move over so you make the right choice in the first place. Even with cancel it's not as though you're constantly being bailed out for making the wrong move- you still have to cancel before your opponent acts. When's the last time you've clicked a move because you knew that the cancel button was there if you decided to change your mind?

    Also Roostur Stadium's just different and I don't think it's necessarily better. I'd rather have Reflect Normals everywhere than functioning Sub tbh. It's also a bigger change than simply tweaking/removing a few clauses, given just how many mechanics are different
     
  17. Lilyhollow

    Lilyhollow Member

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    Cancel button is brought up because if it breaks mechanics, then mechanical purists have to accept that it has to be removed along with sleep clause (which most people would find totally ridiculous), or else admit that they're not really in favor of total mechanical purity.

    Cancel button doesn't break mechanics though. I think the argument goes: if you played with real carts, you could implement a 'cancel button' by having players relay their choices to a third party (either a program or a human judge), which would 'lock in' the choices only once both players have submitted their choice.

    Sleep clause cannot be implemented with carts in this way, at least as it currently exists. A sleep clause in which it is simply illegal to select a sleep-inducing move in the first place when your opponent has a sleeping pokemon is entirely possible to implement in real life though, as I understand. I don't know whether that has actually been tried on simulators, though, and if it hasn't then I'm not really sure why.

    edit: ok thinking about it, it's probably kind of annoying in gens with Natural Cure or something? Doesn't seem like a huge deal in gen 1 though....
     
  18. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    You do need to either relax sleep clause or DQ in the case that a player can literally do nothing other than use a sleep move (e.g. lastmon L8 Wigglytuff, lastmon PP-stalled out of all other moves; other possibilities show up in later gens). In most cases it's so hilariously unlikely in optimal play that it's irrelevant.
     
  19. lord of the crabs

    lord of the crabs Member

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    It influences my decisions in almost every match. In both ways, not only do I try to get information on how quickly the enemy chooses their move, I try to mind game my enemies with my own wait times. I'm actually really surprised that you say this, if you think about it again I think you'll change your mind.

    As an example if the enemy chose the same move three times in a row with 1 seconds time used, and after that is thinking about his move for more than 3 seconds, it's slightly more likely that he will do something else. In general doing the "obvious" play, like blasting the enemy with a super effective move, takes less time to think and doing the not-so-obvious play like exploding a high hp pokemon or predicting your opponents swap, takes more time to think.

    Everyone is playing against the same people over and over so when playing against good players, you have to take into account how much you see that particular playing trying to use or hide this. Worse players of course don't try to hide this at all and get easily bluffed.
     
  20. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END. Member

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    What does wait time analysis have to do with the cancel button?

    EDIT: I mean, I suppose it lets you poll "has opponent moved" multiple times, at least until the answer is "Yes". On the other hand, you get an exact time anyway as long as you're first to move (and that's from cartridge).

    Note to self (and others): use a watch when playing KotC.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019

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