RBY 4U [RBY 4A/4U] Discussion thread

[Disaster Area]

I think the case for arcanine and scyther is really obvious. Staryu is only sometimes effective and rarely game-breakingly good really but it definitely feels like a key part of the tier though maybe that attitude could change... I'm interesting to hear what other people feel about Staryu though. A thought that just came into my head is I'm not really sure why you would use it over Tangela although I can think of some possible reasons. Nidoqueen I haven't personally tested but I'm interested to hear what people think; sounds like from others' testing that it's a decent choice and I know marco and peas think it's worthy of being in the tier.

 

[marcoasd]

Tangela became good as the tier went on: Omastar's rise helped... well, Staryu's good because it has TWave and is fast. It's frail and all, but it's fast too and it can crit/sweep; Tangela sucks vs fire types (Venomoth is tough to go against too) and it can't hit n run. In "hindsight", it could be a decent counter for Seadra but it just feels 4U.

Nidoqueen's legit, it has flaws defensively but it helps a lot on offense. I think Scyther could be included to this tier, leaving Kabutops as the 5U option: Scyther can really sweep when Omastar is not around.

C rank to 4U- only doubt for me is Arcanine: it has a very small niche to be honest, and this is coming from a guy who's been supporting it from day one... I'd say "everything on C minus Arcanine".

 

[Lusch]

As Marco said about Staryu, it is kinda fast and gets T-wave. Being able to beat Nidoking 1v1 (50% chance if it runs Surf, less if running Blizzard, which is an option to hit Tangela that thinks it walls you and tries to set up on you without punishment). It scares Blastoise with thunderbolt and switch ins (Porygon, Venomoth) with T-wave. It won't achieve too much though, but still good enough to be 4U.
Scyther is 4U no doubt...

!!!Controversial Lusch-opinion incoming!!!
I am unsure about both Arcanine and Nidoqueen. They both are to some extent outclassed by Rapidash and Nidoking respectively. In my opinion Arcanine is less outclassed by Rapidash (only thing it gets over Canine is Fire spin (which IS useful, but unreliable)) than Nidoqueen is by Nidoking. The fact that King is much better in this tier than Dash somewhat brings Arcanine and Nidoqueen closer in regards of viability, yet still i actually feel Arcnine is more viable than Nidoqueen, because you run Arcanine (legitimately) over Ninetales and you absolutely have to run Queen alongside King, which is really important when comparing the viablility of them. So all in all I'd say Arcanine slightly > Nidoqueen.
Overall I am unsure about both of them (if I should vote 4U/5U), but if I vote Nidoqueen 4U then i have to vote Arcanine 4U as well, the opposite is not the case.
[Go ahead Peasounay and Marco and make your case for Nidoqueen , my opinion is not set in stone]

tl;dr: the fact that Arcanine is run over Rapidash instead of having to be ran alongside Nidoking outweighs the fact that Nidoking is better than Rapidash; still not sure where to vote them

 

[marcoasd]

Rapidash is faster and speed ties Scyther; idk how relevant is the extra attack vs Blastoise, but at first glance you need to take advantage of a critical hit Body Slam + Hyper Beam anyways to take it out.

When talking about Nidoqueen we already assume it's paired with Nidoking, and you obviously don't want to do the same with fire types as Omastar walls them (same way you don't want Scyther + Rapidash) and Blastoise, Slowpoke and even Nidoking (Queen) are tough opponents.

At the end of the day, it's all about the chances you get throughout a game to get KOs with that extra attack stat.

 

[Ortheore]

If we're talking fire types, I personally try to play Dash and Arcanine in ways that distinguish themselves from each other. Like if I want my fire type switching willy-nilly into Moth and Tang and stuff I'll run Arcanine simply because once it's paralysed its superior bulk tends to shine through a bit more, and I feel more comfortable using it in that role. Dash I'm using either as a pure lead or I'll try to preserve it a bit for the endgame. I'll try to play around some threats in an attempt to keep it free of para, because it loses a lot of its edge when it's para'd and I know that in some matchups it can be an absolute beast lategame. I mean I know they're not that dissimilar, but I try my best to play them to their strengths.

At least, that's my take on it.

Queen I'm not too sure of since I've only used it only a little myself, but I can see why it's good and ppl have been making good arguments, so I'm happy having it 4u

 

[Disaster Area]

With Arcanine / Rapidash, I think some teams appreciate Fire Spin and hence run Rapidash, and some teams don't, hence run Arcanine. Obviously we all value the Fires firstly and Fire Spin secondarily differently and I think that's about all it comes down to. To me it's a no-brainer that Arcanine should be in the tier but I get why some people feel otherwise.

 

[Peasounay]

I already voted because I feel quite confident with my choices but I guess I'll elaborate even though I'm not going to say anything new.

Scyther isn't played that much because it's not easy to fit on a team (imo), plus it doesn't like the Oma usage rise, but is still very dangerous after a SD. It murders absolutely everything, outspeeds everything, it really only needs a bit of chip and a boost. Nothing likes taking a Slash on a switch. It has that EQ immunity that can always come in handy etc I think it's a strong mon that can happen to have some consistency problems, but it completely makes the 4U cut.

Marco and Lusch covered up why Staryu is 4U-worthy very well. It's an offensive Water option which is better late game than early/mid that you can even pair with your Toise/Oma spot.

Nidoqueen is very strong. I understand why it may not be appealing (twice the same mon etc) but it works out very well in offensive teams. It takes cautious plays, mindgames, and predictions to take care of a Nidoking throughout the game, because everybody plays safely with it. With two nidos you can just blast through the opposite team with one and then apply more pressure with the other one. It's honestly not difficult to play except if your opponent has Blastoise + Staryu because it will always cost a lot of ressources to your opponent, and not that much to you. Also Blastoise, Staryu, Abra, and Moth are what can annoy you, three of those are annoyed by a single Slowpoke that itself can cost ressources. I think the plan with double nido is to paralyse Blastoise/Staryu and then just blast really, which works quite consistently. I have a double nido team that consists of toise lead/king/queen/poke/pory/moth if anyone wants to try it out. It's a strong team. It just takes so much ressources to take down.

As for Fires I already gave my opinion (and you guys covered up very well too) but the stats of Arcanine are significant enough to make a difference ingame, which is enough to make Arcanine 4U worthy (imo). Honestly I think Fire Spin is unreliable, risky, and not a good enough advantage to sacrifice stats for it. Arcanine isn't outclassed, and I honestly prefer it to Dash, but that's personnal. Reading all of you makes me realise I feel that way because I always take sleep/paralysis with my Fire lead, a strategy Arcanine suits better.

 

[Disaster Area]

Spoiler: Conversation with peas on violet

[14:43] Peasounay: oh you deleted your vote
[14:43] Peasounay: giving yourself more time to think ?
[14:44] Peasounay: what are you doubts
[14:49] Disaster Area: yea
[14:49] Disaster Area: nidoqueen / staryu
[14:50] Disaster Area: with staryu I'm thinking actually like
[14:50] Disaster Area: what if we think of it like rhydon in 1u
[14:50] Disaster Area: u know what i mean?
[14:50] Peasounay: mmmh
[14:50] Disaster Area: it took 18 years for perspectives to change on rhydon
[14:50] Disaster Area: at the start we had staryu in like A
[14:50] Peasounay: and a bslam tragedy
[14:50] Disaster Area: yes ofc
[14:50] Disaster Area: but point is that
[14:50] Disaster Area: our past experience
[14:50] Disaster Area: affects our future judgement
[14:51] Peasounay: i see what you're saying but staryu works differently than other waters
[14:51] Disaster Area: and I'm unsure if our past experience might blind us here just a little
[14:51] Disaster Area: yea that's all I'm saying
[14:51] Peasounay: Your point is valid
[14:52] Peasounay: but
[14:52] Peasounay: actually i have no follow up
[14:53] Peasounay: I just think it's good enough to be 4U worthy, it's just a bit harder to play
[14:56] Disaster Area: could the same
[14:56] Disaster Area: be said for electrode though?
[14:57] Peasounay: I don't think so
[14:57] Peasounay: Electrode relies on mindgames to take down king
[14:58] Peasounay: and nido in general is around until late game
[14:58] Peasounay: so it has trouble to express itself
[14:58] Disaster Area: it's not so much as it'shard to play as it's inconsistent
[14:58] Disaster Area: it's
[14:58] Disaster Area: high risk high reward
[14:58] Disaster Area: if done right
[14:59] Peasounay: but what's the best electrode reward compared to the best staryu reward ?
[14:59] Disaster Area: screech+boom on nidoking, destroy shit with magneton
[14:59] Disaster Area: and / or muk
[14:59] Disaster Area: or even slowpoke
[15:00] Disaster Area: which are all a hell of a lot more dangerous
[15:00] Disaster Area: with nidoking out of the picture
[15:00] Peasounay: it sounds a bit zingarata even though i'm sure it could work
[15:00] Peasounay: you still depend on a mindgame vs king
[15:00] Disaster Area: yea it is although I guess you could go
[15:00] Disaster Area: with just slowpoke as your main love nidoking gone type thing
[15:00] Disaster Area: and go like
[15:00] Disaster Area: trode / moth / poke / nido / pory / toise
[15:01] Disaster Area: which is a lot less reliant on
[15:01] Disaster Area: getting a good explosion off
[15:01] Disaster Area: with trode
[15:01] Disaster Area: on nidoking
[15:01] Disaster Area: it probably just appreciates an explosion anyway
[15:01] Disaster Area: so long as it's at a good time in terms of the gamestate
[15:02] Disaster Area: also oyu cna probably run
[15:02] Disaster Area: double edge>tbolt on your porygon
[15:02] Disaster Area: on that squad
[15:02] Disaster Area: smack abra harder
[15:02] Peasounay: i guess it could work
[15:03] Peasounay: but needing all of this 'set up' (precise strategy, teambuild etc) is significant i think
[15:03] Disaster Area: hmm ooh here's a fun sounding gimmick! agility porygon...
[15:03] Peasounay: it's too much support needed for it to be 4U
[15:03] Disaster Area: i dunno i think the
[15:03] Disaster Area: generic trode squad
[15:03] Disaster Area: isn't so strategically precise
[15:04] Disaster Area: it's just having a good explosion mon that can't really do too much else under most circumstances but it forces your opp's hand a lot of the time
[15:04] Disaster Area: as well as yea the more zingarata approach which is definitely higher risk but I think there's maybe high reward so it's noteworthy too
[15:05] Peasounay: do you really think trode is c worthy ?
[15:05] Disaster Area: I think trode is d worthy at least
[15:05] Peasounay: that i can agree with
[15:05] Disaster Area: and we should test it more but I feel like
[15:05] Disaster Area: staryu and electrode aren't
[15:05] Disaster Area: that far off
[15:05] Disaster Area: in terms of general viability
[15:06] Peasounay: staryu has more freedom in the tier though
[15:06] Peasounay: tangela fucks with it but that's p much it
[15:06] Disaster Area: yeah but it does also have a lower general reward
[15:07] Peasounay: but less risk
[15:07] Disaster Area: it's lower risk and lower reward
[15:07] Disaster Area: yeah.
[15:07] Disaster Area: i'm not saying staryu and trode aren't very different mons that face different challenges
[15:07] Disaster Area: but rather that once you take that into consideration they're not far off of being equally viable / usable / good
[15:08] Peasounay: mmh ok i see your point

As for Fires I already gave my opinion (and you guys covered up very well too) but the stats of Arcanine are significant enough to make a difference ingame, which is enough to make Arcanine 4U worthy (imo). Honestly I think Fire Spin is unreliable, risky, and not a good enough advantage to sacrifice stats for it. Arcanine isn't outclassed, and I honestly prefer it to Dash, but that's personnal. Reading all of you makes me realise I feel that way because I always take sleep/paralysis with my Fire lead, a strategy Arcanine suits better.

That's very much what I do too.

 

[marcoasd]

If we're talking fire types, I personally try to play Dash and Arcanine in ways that distinguish themselves from each other. Like if I want my fire type switching willy-nilly into Moth and Tang and stuff I'll run Arcanine simply because once it's paralysed its superior bulk tends to shine through a bit more, and I feel more comfortable using it in that role.

Well, looking at calcs I quickly found out that Venomoth is 5HKOish for both, Blastoise still 2HKOs, Nidoking still 2HKOs... actually, Rapidash vs Arcanine is the matchup where the Arcanine's selling points shine: bulk and attack are used at the same time so (on sheet) Dash 5HKos and Arcanine has chances to 3HKo; besides from that, I don't see it being that useful.
Actually, that extra bulk could come in handy in case you use Rest on that 4th slot to get rid of paralysis (and maybe use that extra bulk to get out of of OHKO ranges as you wake up with fresh speed). Well, Rest means you're letting Nidoking in etc, but still.
I wouldn't consider Arcanine>Rapidash due to better status absorbing because they are both really screwed up by paralysis. I would in case Arcanine could use Rest with success or finish things off with that extra attack.

TL;DR, and once again: show me the Rest Arcanine and I'll vote it for 4U, leaving Flareon and Ninetales as 5U options (I'm not a fan of Fire Spin).

PS: I forgot to mention that Nidoqueen has a good reason to be used due to its Slowpoke matchup (Tangela is a bit more complex because it can't hit and run the way Nidoqueen does with that great moveset). Slowpoke is really a pain to go against.