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RBY 4U (Under3U) [RBY 4A/4U] Discussion thread

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Ortheore, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    the latter part just isn't realistic - the only advantage a ground has is dissuading electrics, which aren't really used due to their popularity. So nidoqueen's a bit less powerful meaning you can check it slightly easier early game. Personally I think toise is easy to chip/para and queen literally only needs one free hit and then toise isn't a counter to it next time, or if it gets para'd it's the same game. Literally the only difference will be that it's easier to check and you have a Pokémon that can counter it in the limited sense (compare jolteon countering zapdos and golem countering zapdos. Yes jolt is a counter but in practice it's very limited in that capacity, for obvious reasons). Really I don't think queen around will make that much of a difference - all it means is keeping a couple of possible mons [staryu/blastoise] para-free means you can actually switch in on and force out the nido... except that venomoth already does that (particularly when sleep is not yet burnt). Heck, before a certain point in the game, you don't even want nido to come in because it gives the opponent the sleep advantage. Look, I know there'll be a difference if be ban nidoking for nidoqueen.. but 4U will just become 'nidoqueen tier' (insofar as it's currently 'nidoking tier'). It just becomes a little easier to check/force out, and changes the balance on the values of keeping certain mons status-free a little. It's not the difference between tauros and say persian or kangaskhan, it's the difference between tauros and tauros with 5 less speed and 5 more hp.. yes it's neutered a little (gengar and uhh raichu speed tie no more.. and the irrelevant Electabuzz, Kadabra, Rapidash, Scyther tie) in some ways but in practice it'll not really change the game in that much of a conceivable way. So yes, nidoqueen won't be as dominant as nidoking was, but the difference will be small and not shift the meta very much, without really reducing its effectiveness by all that much. The game will still have the same intense feel to it, the meta will still be as closed, and the weaker nido will still be your breaker and cleaner, it will just be marginally less effective.
     
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  2. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Also I don't see how banning Nidoking will lead to more diversity. How does it make Magneton or Electrode have more use ? They still can't do anything to Nidoqueen (and they actually do worse lol look at Electrode's boom), why would you not play Nidoqueen ? What's the point. Explain to me how it the tier would be more diverse. Graveler and Onix ? Really ? There's no mon that says "Nice they play queen instead of king, i'm totally viable now", which means that no, not a lot would change. It will change a bit (and imo less than you all seem to think) the way we deal with the Nido, but DA pointed out in-game occurences well.

    Diversity isn't always a great thing to have, we have to accept this tier will be closed anyway. And running queen will pretty much force you to run toise rather than trying to do stuff like doubling to abra/moth so it's not even sure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
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  3. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    My point was, that I think that Nidoqueen will not be as dominant as Nidoking currently is. (this is a guess like everything you are saying regarding how the meta might or might not change is, since we have not played the tier without Nidoking yet) And because of not being as dominant maybe people will chose not to use Nidoqueen on every team unlike Nidoking which is practically a must on every team. And I believe that this (Nidoqueen not being as common as King (again, maybe)) could lead to Electrics being more commen (No one would use Zapdos/Jolteon if every OU team had a Golem/Rhydon... Is every OU team using a Rock/Ground? No. Are Electrics used? Yes. Thus my thoughts were: Is every 4U team using Nidoking? Yes --> Electrics are not used. Is every team gonna use Nidoqueen? If the answer is Yes --> metagame would not change that much (Imo it would definitely be healthier due to less game deciding speed tie situations occuring but whatever...). If the answer is No --> Electrics would see some usage (see OU, also see all the water types viable in the 4U tier)).
    This is how I could see more diversity happening...

    I hope I made it a little more clear what I meant, and hope I don't get shitposted on again as if I were stating facts instead of guessing (which is all we do considering no one actually knows how it is gonna be!
     
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  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    You're assuming it would be Nidoqueen's tier too much easily.
    It's definitely going to see a lot of play, but it could be worth to use electrics nonetheless (add the fact that you wouldn't risk to face BOTH nidos anymore): you deal with the Nidoqueen, Magneton does well against many opponents (not that it's going to be A rank, but... let's see if it can join C rank at least).
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
  5. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Thing is all I'm saying is you'll still use nidoqueen on every team, it's marginally easier to check and that's all. It'll still be the best breaker and revenge killer in the game. magneton will still not see much use. Electrode will actually get worse.

    Anyway I said I'm strongly anti-ban but support having a suspect test.. but we need to actually figure out a method to do that. I mentioned it as the topic of a previous thread and got no responses.
     
  6. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    From this thread is our criteria for whether something ought to be banned.

    So the question is: does Nidoking sufficiently satisfy that criterion?
    The answer: depends on who you're asking of course!

    I think we should have a vote thread for a Nidoking suspect test to end on Sunday next week (10th of April). We can use this thread to discuss the suspect and argue over Nidoking and whether we feel it should be banned or not. Everyone who wants to vote can vote. Simples. Any objections to this? If there are none I'll open a thread up in a couple of days.
     
  7. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    With the new Bide mechanics I think bide Abra + Double Kick Nidoking sounds really broken strong as well as other mons could probably use bide too..

    may have been false information
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  8. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Are you guys wanting to wait until the next round of new frontiers to decide on the tier or would you rather get things started now?

    Discussion stagnated a while ago, and I feel that we know what all of the major players in this meta are already (tbh I think we could've started a while ago)
     
  9. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I think the question is mor about Nidoking. Based on the ban criteria we have we'd need a suspect test and to play some games with Nidoking disallowed, since the main case I feel people make for removing Nidoking is of diversity. Without factoring diversity any arguement to ban it has a significantly harder time standing up if it can whatsoever. Even considering diversity I think I will still be anti-ban, but I do need to test, as does everyone.
     
  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    hmm, personally I'm no longer pushing for a suspect but if we're going to hold things up for a suspect we should get things started right away imo. I mean technically there's no rush, but the way things are now I think delaying only represents a loss of momentum.

    I mean it would probably help if we had a good procedure for suspect testing, as it stands I'm not sure what we're doing
     
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  11. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Please can people post in this All Gens - Suspect Testing Discussion | Pokémon Perfect
    we need to decide how we're going to test Nidoqueen. We need some sort of a process for it. Like should we do a new frontiers style tour for it, or test out the suspect meta in new frontiers, or something else?
     
  12. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    You do mean Nidoking right?

    Edit: I don't have any thoughts on what we should do for suspect tests at the moment, but I do think Nidoking doesn't need a suspect test. Presently 4U is looking decent with it likely to have 13 ranked mons, with a healthy pool of 6 (7 including Poliwag) D ranks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2016
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  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Yeah I meant Nidoking
     
  14. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I don't think doing a suspect is useful either, the discussion about this kinda stagnated, if nobody threw it again maybe it means nobody thinks its necessary to see if we should try 4U without Nidoking. I also think the tier is fine as it is, we pretty much know what would change and we see it would be two very similar tiers. Nidoking isn't broken/unhealthy or anything. It doesn't fit the criterias of the necessity of a suspect. Comparing potential 4P with 4U and the difference between 2P-2U shows (imo) that a ban/suspect isn't needed.
     
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  15. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I've discussed it with Disaster Area, and we might as well go ahead with the tiering, rather than trying a King suspect. If anyone objects, please say something now, otherwise a thread will go up soon.

    The reason is simply that based on the way discussion has gone we feel that not too many people are interested in a potential ban of King, which would make a suspect something of a red herring. Again, if you disagree, please let us know
     
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  16. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I'd put into a different perspective: at first glance it looked to me that banning Nidoking wouldn't be enough to improve diversity; the other option would be to ban both of the Nidos.
    All in all, it would be an investment of time to generate one more P tier, with a chance to involve different types into 4U.
    It's all about spending time/how many tiers we want/how much we want to stick with the tiering system (I guess I'm more prone to fixes than other guys in order to end up with a good number of metagames)...
     
  17. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    This is exactly what it is, and the question is should we have a suspect just for that... I think we all agree that Nidoking is the best mon in the tier but I think we also agree that it is not exactly broken.
    I think it would be too much effort for something rather unnecessary. The tier is okay the way it is, I believe.
    Banning both of the Nidos is really trying too hard just to get a tier which has nothing to do with initial 4U just to make electrics viable, so in my opinion there's no point doing that.
     
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  18. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    The theory behind that is we could get a P tier and an U tier, so basically it's two metagames instead of one- that could be nice of a legacy in case we are happy spending some time on this process (that is the opposite of "let's finish the tiering process of fully evolved mons").
    At the same time, changing 4U would have an impact on lower tiers too (and well, where are we seeing Electrode and Magneton with Graveler, Onyx and even Marowak, Geodude and Ryhorn around?).
    Besides from electrics' situation being worrisome, other types would be involved: Machamp springs to mind, being bulky enough for the tier, leaving the floor in Primeape/Hitmonlee's favour in lower tiers (who don't carry that EQ that is so important to deal with electrics at that point).

    One of the main problems of 4U is how do you counter Slowpoke, after all: we've got to think about the interactions, trying to figure out the best way to bring this process to an happy ending and yes- I'm theorymonning too. IMO we need to test our solutions a lot and figure which one works best.
     
  19. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    It kinda sounds like you're wanting a P tier for the sake of a P tier, when to my understanding its only supposed to exist when something is too powerful for the tier and too weak for the tier above it.

    Electrode would be okay as long as Marowak was the Ground of choice (it can boom on it atleast), otherwise both it and Magneton would have to wait for a Zapdos threshold where their shear force of stats makes them worth using regardless of the presence of Rock/Grounds.

    Machamp could in theory be a little bit better with King banned but Queen not, since Queen has a harder time KOing Champ with its weaker Earthquake, but the main roadblock for its viability in my opinion is Abra, Slowpoke and Venomoth (and Porygon) nailing it with Psychic. 5U should be much better for it when the only mons left that can hit it with a strong super-effective attack are Butterfree, Drowzee, Doduo, and a few other first stage NFEs with non-STAB Psychic (also Spearow and Wing Attack users, but meh).

    Primeape I think will be viable in 5U despite Machamp provided Nidoqueen isn't in 5U, 95 Base Speed with a fairly high Attack stat + decent enough coverage will make it a pretty good revenge killer. Hitmonlee is harder to tell, it is fairly fast itself but I don't know if it'll work too well with just Normal/Fighting/Seismic Toss coverage.

    Slowpoke is countered by Weepinbell (which is already somewhat viable in 4U) and Ivysaur, Electrics are always a threat and even Bellsprout and Bulbasaur can be strong checks to it. If Electrics became common, Graveler would also be good to bring along as a panic button.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2016
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  20. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Vote thread for 4U/5A is up!

    Personally I intend to vote all of C rank to 4U. It's as simple as that I think they're all good enough and in my mind they're still relevant (if a little niche) threats.
     

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