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RBY 4U (Under3U) [RBY 4A/4U] Discussion thread

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Ortheore, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    With 3U being decided upon, the time has come to turn our sights to the next tier, 4A (or 4U as it will eventually be known).

    Use this thread to discuss what pokemon and strategies you think will be viable in this tier. Most importantly, if you feel that a pokemon is broken, this is the place to call for a suspect of it

    1U - Banned Pokémon: Mew, Mewtwo
    2P - Banned Pokémon: Alakazam, Chansey, Cloyster, Dragonite, Exeggutor, Gengar, Golem, Jolteon, Jynx, Lapras, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Zapdos
    2U - Banned Pokémon: Articuno, Moltres
    3U - Banned Pokémon: Dodrio, Gyarados, Haunter, Hypno, Kadabra, Kangaskhan, Persian, Poliwrath, Raichu, Raticate, Rhydon, Tentacruel, Victreebel
    4A - Banned Pokemon: Aerodactyl, Charizard, Clefable, Dewgong, Dugtrio, Electabuzz, Exeggcute, Fearow, Golduck, Kingler, Mr. Mime, Pinsir, Poliwhirl, Sandslash, Vaporeon, Venusaur, Wigglytuff

    Now to kick things off, here are some things that intrigue me:
    FWG the meta?
    Probably the most notable drops from 3U are the Fire types, most notably Ninetales and Flareon. Some people argued that they were underrated and on par with Zard, and though they didn't make the cut, I still expect them to make significant waves in 4A. Meanwhile the need for sleep will likely see Tangela out in the fray (Grav being threatening doesn't hurt either), while Vileplume could also be a niche pick. As for Water types, Blastoise and Omastar are kinda a big deal, and with Fire types figuring to be major threats, water types could also see demand

    Will power overcome typing?
    One thing that's consistent across all tiers thus far is that pokemon with undesirable types such as fighting, poison and fire have consistently dropped lower than their stats and/or movepools would suggest. Will we see a correction of that in 4U?

    Show me your sweepers!
    I'm intrigued by the candidates for cleaning up lategame. You have a variety of fire types, fighting types and then idk what you'll get out of SDers. Heck, even the Nidos might be fast enough to sweep.

    Boom is back baby
    There are a lot of good explosion users in this tier. Graveler is the obvious one, but Muk and Weezing also figure to make themselves known. Of course, then there's the likes of Gastly and Shellder, which are on the weaker side of things, but they have other interesting quirks going for them.

    What to make of Wrap and Recover and the Nidos?
    Wrap is interesting as we have Arbok and Dragonair both being capable users of the move with the capacity to paralyse and in the case of DAir, agiwrap *shudders*. There's also Lickitung, but I still think that'll be too support dependent to work. Recover is interesting as well, as both Staryu and Porygon have a lot going for them, but are held back by their BST. I'm not sure how things will pan out here, but the tier may have too many powerhouses for them to thrive. Lastly, the Nidos. I really think the Nidos will be massive threats and it'll be interesting to see how the tier responds to them.

    I've bolded anything that sticks out to me

    Ivysaur
    Charmeleon
    Blastoise
    Butterfree
    Beedrill
    Pidgeot
    Rattata
    Spearow
    Arbok
    Pikachu
    Sandshrew
    Nidoqueen
    Nidoking

    Clefairy
    Ninetales
    Jigglypuff
    Golbat
    Vileplume
    Parasect
    Venomoth

    Diglett
    Meowth
    Psyduck
    Primeape
    Arcanine
    Poliwag
    Abra
    Machamp

    Weepinbell
    Tentacool
    Graveler
    Rapidash

    Slowpoke
    Magneton
    Farfetch'd
    Doduo
    Seel
    Muk
    Shellder
    Gastly

    Onix
    Drowzee
    Krabby
    Electrode
    Marowak
    Hitmonlee
    Hitmonchan
    Lickitung
    Weezing
    Rhyhorn
    Tangela
    Seadra
    Seaking
    Staryu
    Scyther

    Magmar
    Magikarp
    Ditto
    Eevee
    Flareon
    Porygon
    Omastar
    Kabutops
    Dragonair
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  2. GGFan

    GGFan Member

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    Here are my thoughts after a cursory look at the tier.

    Blastoise looks like it might be the Tauros of the tier: hits the majority of the metagame for super effective damage, has respectable bulk, and can paralyze things if it has to. Blizzard/Earthquake/Surf/Body Slam looks good, with Earthquake being the most mutable move.

    I don't know about Abra. The Speed and Special are nice, but it's about as durable as my dead grandmother. Still, it has good matchups against Special-based Pokemon, like Staryu, Gastly, and Shellder.

    Dragonair looks pretty solid: there's no Ice STAB in this metagame, it has a great movepool, and it's stats are decent overall.
     
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  3. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    I like the idea of Abra notably as a lead, it ouspeeds Venomoth and Gastly, the two fast sleepers of the tier, and has access to Thunder Wave. It can also do some significant damage to Nidos one on one, and Nidos seems to be threatening in this tier. Blastoise has a nice bulk and can be interesting if Ninetales and Flareon are played (which will most likely happen), it also has the ability to check Nidos somehow.

    Gastly can be viable, pretty much for the same reasons as in 3U. Scyther is still walled by Graveler and Gastly but no more Aero, Buzz and stuff. Electrode likes the disappearing of Slash/Dug but still dislikes Graveler and nidos obv, but it can do the work vs Blastoise/Staryu.

    Weezing has a good physical bulk and tbolt/fire blast/boom, Muk seems alright. They both like the fact that the only Psychic types are staryu and abra (both seem alright, also slowpoke and drowzee but i dunno). This makes things interesting for plant/poisons has Ortheore mentionned. Porygon might be able to fullfill the para spreader role.

    Tangela can paralyse Nidos, a nice trait. Venomoth can annoy them too.

    The tier seems a bit slow overall, so I expect another fast paced metagame with pokemon such as Nidos/Ninetales, maybe Scyther being threats given their speed and power. Even a bit of bulk.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Discussed it a bit with Enigami already we think that
    1 Ninetales is the lead to beat, due to that power it kinda just obliterates every sleeper and most other things too
    2 nidoking = broken? nothing is switching into it and it has insane coverage

    note that like nidoqueen is handled by blastoise so there's that

    obv we need to test before we can consider banning anything lol
     
  5. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I'm in a bit of an hurry right now, but at first glance
    Nidoking Earthquake vs. Machamp: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 57.2% chance to 3HKO
    Machamp 2HKOs with Earthquake.

    Btw yeah, Nidoking is tricky to counter.
     
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  6. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Looking at it, I think actually HB Rapidash is going to give Ninetales serious competition in the lead role. Pretty much everything with status can be 2HKO'd except Slowpoke and Gastly, it beats Ninetales 1v1, and its speed makes it a good check to Scyther later in the match if it remains unparalyzed.

    Poliwag will be interesting to see. It pretty much requires Hydro Pump, but at +2 it can do a lot of damage, and can even setup on and then OHKO Nidos. Plus its a fast sleeper, can take a hit or two (depending on what it faces), and probably won't have to worry about Razor Leaf or STAB Thunderbolt. The biggest problem would be getting past Blastoise though.

    Magmar I think might actually be viable, I had never considered Seismic Toss. Its the strongest 1-turn attack vs. Waters left among Fire types reliably 3-4HKOing them and is also the only Fire left that can actually do meaningful damage to Kabutops/Omastar.

    Blastoise definitely is gonna be a tough nut to crack. Ninetales, Rapidash and opposing Blastoise from what I've looked at so far don't even 4HKO, so it'll probably be perfectly viable to run Rest and end up a lot like Vap/Gong in 3U. Despite Blastoise being able to 2HKO them among other issues, Weepinbell, Ivysaur and Electrode might be worthwhile just for the damage they can do to it when its paralyzed/resting.

    Primeape I'm expecting will be more viable than Hitmonlee. Even though it doesn't get Hi Jump Kick/Meditate and isn't quite as powerful, its a bit bulkier, has better coverage (Thunderbolt/Rock Slide) and that base 95 speed will be a godsend whenever your opponent has an Abra (which Primeape OHKOs with HB), Poliwag or Venomoth.

    Electrics are flat out going to suck. With Nidos, Marowak and Graveler around, Electrode is going to have a REALLY hard time doing much, Magneton is slower than Blastoise and unlike Electrode has NO way to threaten non-Rock Grounds, and Pikachu despite having Surf is probably going to end up a barely viable revenge killer if anything.

    I'll post more first impressions later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
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  7. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Well, next question after "how do you counter Nidoking?" is "what about Blastoise and waters?".
    We're far from being official on Nidoking, though. What if waters are so good that countering Nidoking is actually a minor problem?
    Electrics can't touch rock types and grass types don't have Razor Leaf, so this looks like the place where the water types party starts.
     
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  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Water Types
    Blastoise - seems really good
    Kabutops / Omastar - waters and rocks with decent stats and the ability to answer scyther fairly well. Omastar is fat and tops has SD. Iirc both get stoss too
    poliwag - ironically this is probably pretty decent
    shellder - goes kaboom
    seadra - speed ties with nidoking
    staryu - outspeeds nidoking and has recover and twave but it's frail ~
    Slowpoke - thoughts?


    Fire Types
    Magmar - gets stoss, big deal
    Ninetales - good anti-everything-that-sleeps mon
    Rapidash - ^ same as that but less powerful and a bit faster
    arcanine - wishes it was relevant
    flareon - hits hard physically, might be a boon

    Grass Types
    Tangela - best grass? double status, good stats, mega drain and stuff. And has some weird options like growth and sd~
    Ivysaur - best razor leafer? also speed ties with tang
    vileplume - decent stats but low speed bites it and doesn't have much over tang
    parasect - still bad I think
    weepinbell - slower ivysaur with wrap and stun spore

    Poison Types (that aren't grass)
    Nidoking - is pretty awesome vs everything and even stuff like blastoise can't switch in. At the same time though, lacks many opportunities to come in.
    venomoth - still bad too but its speed is a bit more significant here and there's no psychics around to really bone it (lol abra) and it's not too bad vs nidoking
    Arbok - wraps and has eq for gastly and glare and acid and hb and mega drain~ idk if it'll be any good tho
    Muk - goes kaboom
    Gastly - spoopy
    Weezing - kablammo

    Others
    Butterfree - still bad I think
    graveler - if u want to bone scyther run this.
    Machamp - stats are finally enough probably
    Primeape - enigami will use it but will anyone else ?????
    abra - frail as shit and no recover but might be ok
    Doduo - thoughts?
    Drowzee - ?
    Lickitung - sd wrap might work??
    Scyther - stronk
    porygon - twave recover and fun??
    Dragonair - seems ok?

    just by numbers, about half of these are likely to be 4U-worthy. Curious to see what it turns out to be though. Definitely needs some testing and using some shitty teams to get going tho
     
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  9. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Most of them are shitted on by waters: Ivysaur itself is outsped and 2HKO'd by Blizzard.
    My money is on Staryu and Porygon to save the metagame.
     
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  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    testing porygon a bit and it's an utter beast. I think crits worry it and you need to keep it clean of status but if you do that you're golden. It's a good blastoise answer assuming ur not crit on before u get para'd/u don't got frozen

    e: enigami quote:
    [21:18] Enigami: Definitely gonna need to adjust my teams. Pory feels like a Pinsir strapped to a Chansey when its unparalyzed.

    edit 2:
    ★Disaster Area: the irony of rby is
    ★Disaster Area: pikachu's probably gonna end up in
    ★Disaster Area: a higher tier than nidoqueen
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  11. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Ubiquitous: Blastoise, Nidoking, Staryu, Porygon, Venomoth
    Leads: Venomoth, Poliwag, Abra, Ninetales (Arcanine, Rapidash)
    Viable:Flareon, Pidgeot, Scyther, Tangela
    Fillers: Machamp, Seadra, Electrode

    Graveler, Kabutops, Lickitung and Dragonair are currently off the radar; Slowpoke has an harder time than Poliwag due to lack of speed, while TWave could help.
    Graveler is slow and OHKO'd by waters; if it doesn't rise Electrode and Magneton could be used, but Nidoking can switch into them (Electrode has Take Down...).
    Pikachu's Surf has 30% to 3HKO Nidoking and its staying power sucks.
     
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  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I played my first matches today with teams that i made as soon as the tier was formed (ie. before this discussion)

    I overrated grass types massively, while underrating Moth and Psychic, even if not STAB. Likewise I overrated fighting types- I used Champ in all 3 matches iirc and it consistently underwhelmed. Used Muk as well, it was mediocre

    Anyhow I'm looking at Toise and wondering how you're supposed to beat it. You guys have mentioned Pory and Staryu as potential checks to it, but what other options are there? And then there's Nidoking as well, but with Blastoise being such a beast it's not really an issue atm, while its weaknesses are still shit.

    Pidgeot's decent, tried Scyther and misplayed it, but I'm kinda wondering where its opportunities will be
     
  13. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    I mean with toise I think the main plan is force it to rest then set up on it with something (not that there's much available)
     
  14. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    First attempt

    S: Blastoise, Venomoth.
    A: Porygon, Nidoking.
    B:Staryu, Rapidash, Scyther, Poliwag.
    C:Ninetales, Arcanine (leads), Flareon, Abra, Gastly, Machamp, Pidgeot, Tangela.
    D:Electrode, Seadra, Pikachu.

    Undefined: Weepinbell, Graveler, Magneton, Muk, Shellder, Onyx, Lickitung, Weezing, Magmar, Kabutops Omastar, Nidoqueen, Dragonair

    Porygon could be moved to S and Staryu to A given that paralysis is that important, and they've got access to Recover too: you're going to see at least one of them on every team.
    Yeah, I could be too low on fire types.
     
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  15. Peasounay

    Peasounay qui peut me stopper Host Emeritus

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    Well if we're discussing it already:

    Porygon to S imo, very nice bulk, twave recover, checks blastoise, can check fires etc, Nidoking is fine in A imo it's droppable somehow
    Staryu to A, it's so good
    Poliwag i'm not sure about B or C
    Flareon to C is generous, with all the faster water types around, needs some testing
    Kabutops is a good scyther/pidgeot/fire wall
    Lusch made slowpoke work out good against me, and Enigami found arguments for Tentacool. Otherwise your ranks seem to be what the tier looks like right now. We should probably wait for one or two rounds of the tournament to gather a bigger sample and more opinions
     
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  16. Lusch

    Lusch A critical hit! Member

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    Staryu speed-ties Nidoking....


    Scyther is too high in B imo, there's viable choices such as Gastly, Graveler, Omastar and Kabutops to render it useless. Also Slowpoke is viable, C rank maybe even B cause it kinda counters Blastoise, which is huge, also it gets T-wave...
    Venomoth is good but not S rank-worthy.
    Agree with Peas that Staryu could go A and Porygon S. Also Poliwag is too high in B imo.
    Add Primeape to the list (I would suggest the same rank as Machamp because that 95 speed is just nice in this tier)
     
  17. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Machamp doesn't achieve much; Primeape's speed is relevant, but it can't even deal with Nidoking (hopes for paraslams). They're both disappointing so yeah they could meet (maybe at D).

    We all agree about Porygon and Staryu at this point. Poliwag has many struggles, but sleepers are uncommon and it often ends up doing something good on a team that spreads paralysis (also, your B rank looks pretty much empty). It's possible that I overlooked Slowpoke.

    I think Venomoth is worth S rank for being the combo of speed, double powders and Psychic; only real counters are Abra and fire types, with Stun Spore screwing them.

    Scyther's counters you mentioned struggle against top threats (Gastly looks like the most viable, I didn't test Omastar though), and it clearly threatens a full sweep in case it reaches +4 via FPs. We might be overlooking them, but after all we ranked Zapdos and Dodrio as A. Pidgeot is more likely to drop than Scyther, who has the tools (Wing attack after SD, Slash...).

    Kabutops counters fire types, but its speed makes it hard for it to sweep with SD (it could just hit and run with Slash/Body Slam/Surf/Hyper Beam). Omastar does well one on one (HPump vs Nidoking/Venomoth taking advantadge of special defense, SToss vs Staryu), Kabutops does better vs paralyzed things and has a better time vs Blastoise. My money is on Omastar atm.
    About Graveler there's no surprise: it needs a lot of support because it's usually outsped and 2HKO'd (when not worse), that means OHKO on a CH.
     
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  18. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    It does get leech life. I think with how marginal the utility of mega drain is, you could afford to run it to screw abra if you wanted. And I guess psywave could be a real option.
     
  19. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Leech Life has 57.8% chance to 3HKO, Psychic does around 70%... that's a just no matchup: imma take Mega Drain in case I face fossils or Graveler, or for the occasional chip on waters.

    Psywave is another just no move, go for Double Edge (over 50% on Abra) or Hyper Beam (75-90% on Abra) in case you feel you won't face the aforementioned pokemon.
     
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  20. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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