RBY 2U-L RBY 2U Viability Rankings

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
I guess the main thing is that Khan plays out similarly to Tauros- good damage with the potential for crits, good physical bulk, makes better use of HBeam. By contrast Persian's Slash doesn't have a chance for favourable hax, while it can't make good use of HB. I agree that being walled by Haunter isn't a super big deal, mainly because that's an opportunity for Rhydon. Certainly you're far more likely to run into Khan, as it has a much bigger presence in the meta.

Having said that, it could all be perception, Tauros-lite vs glass cannon.
 
Also you're not walled if you have Stoss on Raichu which I think is quite good of a move (it also helps against opposite Raichu). You can hurt on the switch, but yea you don't really stay in.

Well about that, you can say that for basically every Pokemon in existence, "click the [insert best coverage move against predicted switch in here] and it will hurt that mon" but it is a weak argument in my opinion, even weaker in this case because the potentially threatening move is not even a super effective move, it's Seismic Toss. Second such an argument relies on predicting switches correctly which is obviously far from being reliable, compare that to the Poke in this tier that really deserves S, Hypno: It just clicks Psychic and destroys, no prediction needed, hence way more reliable.
About Raichu in an A+ rank, I even disagree with that. In my opinion it is A rank and does not even deserve to stand out above Kadabra and Gyarados.

Good points about Haunter, Ortheore, I might have overrated his anti-Tentacruel ability. And yes, Haunter is definitely viable as a non-lead. Rhydon is an issue for it, true. My feeling still says A rank for Haunter but I can live with B rank now should this be the decision.
 
Haunter is mainly a non lead, and its best traits are: switching into Gyarados, walling Persian. I think it's more dispensable than other A ranked pokemon, while it's still something you'll face often.
About leads, Hypno is used too and I led with Clefable at times; Mr Mime or even Charizard could be used.
Kadabra is obviously the best one (trading with your opponent's...)

I agree with fawfulmk-II on Raichu being a bit more than A (not on Mewtwo, it ends up being similar to Alakazam in OU for the way it loses power once it's paralyzed - these days Mewtwo started using TWave+Selfdestruct to make up for its frailness; it would be a lot tougher with TWave on its Amnesia set, but it loses coverage and PPs).
Raichu to A is something I eventually accepted myself because it lacks staying power: this tier is far different from OU, and TWave is good but not as needed. The tier is fast paced, and at the end of the day Hypno is the only S left.
Kadabra would be the other A+ in case we wanted an A+ rank, but I don't feel like it's desperately needed.

Tentacruel is scary, and it's one of those pokemon that you want to face with Raichu (Electabuzz would be even better, and it hits grass types too) or a TWaver; Haunter loses one one one, but it can at least force it out with Explosion, erasing SD boosts (unless it gets crit).

Persian is ok where it is: Body Slam is really important to get paralysis and crits, and the Persian vs Kangaskhan MU is pretty laughable. Letting Haunter in for free is no big deal when Haunter is slept, but in my experience it rarely is (at that point you need an healthy Kadabra to counter it...). Kangaskhan can switch into attacks a lot more and it's just so easier to use and gets real crits.
Dodrio can be a real pain when you don't face a Rhydon, but looks like it's very common. Just think about Dugtrio: it disappeared from the 2U scene, Rhydon's just better.
 
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I've also tried Raichu and Rhydon lead, not tested them yet. Rhydon puts the pressure on at the start versus Kadabra and is merely sleep fodder vs Haunter / Hypno but I seemed to have a team that could afford that. Raichu gets para vs Haunter and takes sleep but you need to switch to hypno or rhydon or something vs kadabra. I also tried duggy lead (good vs both kadabra and haunter), haunter's an obvious partner since it switches into gyara which duggy is huge bait for, and you can also double turn 1 into haunter as they go gyara or hypno or poliwrath or victreebel or venusaur. I'll grant though I'm still experimenting a lot

Agreeing with raichu to A, it really doesn't feel like anything special to me. Offensively it's nice but so are many things, its speed is nice, and its typing is ok but it offers a bit less defensively than a lot of mons that are similarly offensively useful like kanga / gyara. It doesn't seem outstanding to me, I feel like gyara's a better mon than it.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Moved Raichu to A

Looking at the rankings, I think there's a clear dichotomy within B of pokemon that are meta staples and ones that kinda work but aren't great. Bel and Haunter are really significant meta forces, and though you don't see Persian as much it's still a big threat (DA makes some reasonable points). Dodrio and Poliwrath just aren't all that good though.

The issue with Dodrio is that it's just outclassed. Offensively its speed is nice, the extra power avoids bad rolls in a few matchups, but off the top of my head I can't think of any new xHKO marks it reaches when compared with Khan. On the flipside, the lack of bulk means it loses to Khan, its electric weakness causes problems against Raichu, and lastly it's walled by Rhydon. Those are all prominent threats that it's worse off against relative to Khan, and the advantages are relatively miniscule- it speed ties Tenta and outpaces Haunter, and even there Khan has EQ to nail them. If you want a normal type to spam Body Slam, you're almost always better off with Khan. If you want a fast normal type, use Persian instead, which actually outspeeds everything that's significant in the meta.

Poliwrath just gets screwed over by a really hostile meta. There are soooo many things that hit it super effectively that it has a rough time even entering play, which is really bad for something that usually fills the role of backup sleeper. It's just amazing how many ways there are to handle this thing.

Do you agree with me? If so, what should be done about this? I think Wrath and Drio ought to drop to C, and then idk what to do with B/A.
 
Looking at the rankings, I think there's a clear dichotomy within B of pokemon that are meta staples and ones that kinda work but aren't great. Bel and Haunter are really significant meta forces, and though you don't see Persian as much it's still a big threat (DA makes some reasonable points). Dodrio and Poliwrath just aren't all that good though.
Definitely agree Wrath is a step below those, HOWEVER I slightly object to saying it's not all that good; the main thing with poliwrath is that it opens up quite a few more teambuilding routes, and it's a significant back-up sleeper option. Just so long as we're agreeing it stays B to me I don't mind.

The issue with Dodrio is that it's just outclassed. Offensively its speed is nice, the extra power avoids bad rolls in a few matchups, but off the top of my head I can't think of any new xHKO marks it reaches when compared with Khan. On the flipside, the lack of bulk means it loses to Khan, its electric weakness causes problems against Raichu, and lastly it's walled by Rhydon. Those are all prominent threats that it's worse off against relative to Khan, and the advantages are relatively miniscule- it speed ties Tenta and outpaces Haunter, and even there Khan has EQ to nail them. If you want a normal type to spam Body Slam, you're almost always better off with Khan. If you want a fast normal type, use Persian instead, which actually outspeeds everything that's significant in the meta.
Agree

I'd consider maybe going B+ / B- like we do in RBY 3U [and maybe do the same thing in A?] but I kinda see the strong case in saying to move these down to C.
 
I consider making B+ and B- a good move here. Poliwrath and Dodrio are less B than Haunter, Victreebel and Persian.
Poliwrath is a tricky case, there are scenarios (mind Gyarados being around) where you would really like to use Earthquake>Missnosis to hit and run against Raichu or even Haunter.
Again, the other pokemon are obviously easier to use.

Also, we all forgot how effective Exeggcute was as a lead with that Kadabra matchup: very similar to Jynx in being good early and frail in mid and lategame.
 
Also, we all forgot how effective Exeggcute was as a lead with that Kadabra matchup: very similar to Jynx in being good early and frail in mid and lategame.
Unlike Jynx though it doesn't really do anything much after it gets sleep. Kadabra can sit on you until you switch out and then you're not coming in again to be fodder. Also Hypno can do this job too; Exeggcute lets you carry a Hypno in the back instead but it probably still wants Hypnosis since Haunter leads will sleep egg.
 
I think Wrath and Drio ought to drop to C

Yes. (maybe not Drio but in my honest opinion definitely Wrath (yet probaly still both) [would that make them candidates for 3U?].)


Also in theory, marco's remark about Electabuzz makes me consider it C rank as well, rather than D but I have not used it so this is just in theory (Buzz outspeeds Cruel and can actually hit Haunter harder than Raichu can, definitely not 3 ranks worse, is it?).
 
A couple of minor tidbits:
-I notice there are a couple of omissions in the tier such as Wigglytuff, Hitmonlee and Lickitung. the latter 2 are probably not noteworthy in the least but IIRC Wiggles has a niche as sort of a Clefable 2.0 doesn't it?

-I notice some of the more popular NFEs like the stupidly Good Kadabra/Haunter and niche following Poliwhirl/Dragonair/Exeggcute there, but I've also heard ones like Slowpoke, Staryu and even Abra got spots of use. would they be notable to bring up or all G tier stuff anyway(a la Pikachu)?
 
A couple of minor tidbits:
-I notice there are a couple of omissions in the tier such as Wigglytuff, Hitmonlee and Lickitung. the latter 2 are probably not noteworthy in the least but IIRC Wiggles has a niche as sort of a Clefable 2.0 doesn't it?

-I notice some of the more popular NFEs like the stupidly Good Kadabra/Haunter and niche following Poliwhirl/Dragonair/Exeggcute there, but I've also heard ones like Slowpoke, Staryu and even Abra got spots of use. would they be notable to bring up or all G tier stuff anyway(a la Pikachu)?

Clefable could be underrated, it's a good pokemon- however, your team starts from Hypno and Kangaskhan: Hypno basically outclasses it, and stacking normal types has its drwabacks (Persian and Dodrio are other options, at least they're fast).
Clefable has some chance especially if you drop Raichu: going for more bulk over speed, mind the Tentacruel in particular.

Wiggly: monotype normal yn? 3U material.

Hitmonlee is bad in a tier full of Psychic types and Haunter. Primeape is the fighting type of choice in 5U (at least it has Rock Slide and Tbolt), and I don't even think it's all that good.

Licktitung is slow and won't make it to 5U.

Poliwhirl is 3U material: it's faster than Poliwrath, not fast enough to be a 2U lead. And Wrath isn't shining here...

Slowpoke is just outpaced, it's very good in 4U.
Abra doesn't even learn recover, and is outclassed by Mr.Mime. 4U
Staryu isn't even a Psychic type and it's frail. 4U
Dragonair ended up being good in 5U; we know what it does (it asks for setup or time to use Agility, then RNG in hitting forever). 2U has Haunter, bulky pokemon and fast ones; 5U was the first tier were we felt we didn't have better pokemon to use / it could do other things other than Wrapping.

Exeggcute has a small niche (mainly as a lead), it can switch into very few pokemn: Hypno, Kadabra and Rhydon.

They're all obviously better than Pikachu, but I don't see a reason for going that low. We're talking about joke pokemon.
 
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Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Yes. (maybe not Drio but in my honest opinion definitely Wrath (yet probaly still both) [would that make them candidates for 3U?].)
Not unless we decided to review it, which I don't think we should (yet).

Regarding Wigglytuff, the issue is that Clef has a tough enough time fitting itself onto a team as it is, seeing as you've probably already got a Hypno (generic tank) and/or a normal (offense). To then add a Wigglytuff on top of that I think is a bit too much a lot of the time

Anyway I'm in two minds about what to do with Poli/Drio. I think they ought to be C, but a couple other people have argued for B+/-, which I can definitely see for Dodrio, not so much for Poli. Personally I think Poli has C written all over it. Part of the issue is that although I argued against Haunter rising before, I feel that it and the other mons being grouped together are closer in viability to most of A than PoliDrio
 
After I have played this tier a little bit now, I want to post some thoughts about certain Pokemon that I could see being ranked differently than they currently are.

Haunter B-->A:
Haunter's normal immunity has proven to be very crutial in this tier as far as I could observe, switching into Normal moves from the likes of Kangaskhan, Persian or Gyarados while forcing mindgames and threatening with very nice speed and Explosion alongside nice options in Thunderbolt, Psychic, Night Shade and Mega Drain alongside the ability to sleep things and thus act as a lead are all extremely useful traits and let it perform a key role on a team. In addition to that the Normal immunity lets it deal with Wrap which is huge considering how good Tentacruel is (in my opinion, see below) Whereas his Psychic weakness is rather unproblematic because of the omnipresent Hypno and Kadabra to sponge Psychics for it. Bottomline I think it deserves A.

Supporting this even if it was posted long ago. In a tier where a lot of mons don't have any consistent check, having one that completely cockblocks Persian and who walls Victreebel, who's good late game vs Tenta etc is very strong. It's also a sleeper, a boomer, a pivot, a good gyarados answer, etc well basically what Lusch said. It's just so good I realised I rarely drop it.

I saw my previous post about S Raichu, yea no, Raichu's place is in A.

Also I'm not suggesting this one but i'm just asking the question: could Rhydon potentially drop ? It walls Dodrio and annoys Haunter but idk it feels like it doesn't get in too much, and there will always be something heavily threatening it even during the late game because you can't para every every mon (Raichu/Vic/Waters etc), I can't see it sweeping as easily as the rest of the sweepers. I'm just asking for opinions here. It doesn't have a big usage stat for the time being. Waiting for more data is fine.
 
Also I'm not suggesting this one but i'm just asking the question: could Rhydon potentially drop ? It walls Dodrio and annoys Haunter but idk it feels like it doesn't get in too much, and there will always be something heavily threatening it even during the late game because you can't para every every mon (Raichu/Vic/Waters etc), I can't see it sweeping as easily as the rest of the sweepers. I'm just asking for opinions here. It doesn't have a big usage stat for the time being. Waiting for more data is fine.
I mean Rhydon isn't really meant for use in late-game. Its main use other than beating up Haunter / Dodrio, is that you use it to pressure Hypno and as like a wallbreaker. Bring it vs sleeping pokes or to revenge kill after smth is para'd. I dunno if maybe it could go down to B but I think I should be clear that it's not meant for lategame abuse normally unless you see a dodrio.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Yeah I've been using Don on almost all of my teams because imo it's the best at playing aggressively vs opposing Psychics, with Kadabra and Hypno being easily paralysed and easily baited into a non-Psychic, which creates a lot of opportunities for Rhydon as both of them get mauled if they stay in. I mean walling Drio is nice and threatening Haunter is also good (I guess you have to beware MD tho), but beating up Psychics is its main draw imo.

As for Haunter, I'm sceptical of it in A. Idk, offensively I feel its impact outside of sleep and boom isn't impressive, while defensively... it's kind of all over the place? Like it has a lot of good matchups that don't really form much of a pattern outside of checking Waters. On the flipside, Psychic weakness and frailty vs physical attackers that can actually hit are notable. The Psychic weakness is especially notable if you're looking to lead with it, as I really feel Kadabra's the lead to beat. So yeah, I think of it as B, but if ppl want it to rise I'm not adamantly against it or anything
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Oooh look at me double posting

As before, I think Drio and Wrath ought to drop, Drio is debatable since it's good but outclassed imo, but I think Wrath is simply not very good. The tier is loaded with checks to Wrath, with Bel basically being a counter and Hypno, Kadabra, Raichu, Gyarados, Haunter and Tentacruel all hitting super effectively and/or resisting its main attacking option. It's got too many obstacles to climb and it's really difficult finding a teamslot for it.

While I'm at it, Tangela deserves better than D. Sure it's totally inept offensively, but it can still spread status for Gyara/Don, and its bulk/typing is fantastic. Resistances to Water, Ground and Electric are awesome to have, all while not really having significant weaknesses, as Fire types aren't seen, Ice attacks are very rare and Bug type is Bug type
 
I disagree with PORCO DRIO dropping, it kinda depends on rhydon usage but it really is an absolute monster.

With wrath I think C is fair but it does belong in the tier and it can do some work sometimes (see replay here) - it's not a bad mon at all, but it's hard to use and if victreebel is too popular it really sucks for it unfortunately

no opinion on tangela

PORCO DRIO

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Oooh look at me double posting

As before, I think Drio and Wrath ought to drop, Drio is debatable since it's good but outclassed imo, but I think Wrath is simply not very good. The tier is loaded with checks to Wrath, with Bel basically being a counter and Hypno, Kadabra, Raichu, Gyarados, Haunter and Tentacruel all hitting super effectively and/or resisting its main attacking option. It's got too many obstacles to climb and it's really difficult finding a teamslot for it.

While I'm at it, Tangela deserves better than D. Sure it's totally inept offensively, but it can still spread status for Gyara/Don, and its bulk/typing is fantastic. Resistances to Water, Ground and Electric are awesome to have, all while not really having significant weaknesses, as Fire types aren't seen, Ice attacks are very rare and Bug type is Bug type

Big part of this is due to myself being an ass and dismissing Blizzard on most pokemon (mostly because I don't like using Grass-types in a tier where Haunter is a pretty big thing and they need Rhydon to counter Dodrio, sadly I overlooked that you always liked them).

I think the split Bel B/Saur C/ Tangela D to be perfect: that typing and Sleep Power give it a small niche, but Hypno and even Clefable provide status and some help against dangerous things (like Kangaskhan) and are just better overall, mostly because they can wear down their counters.

Dodrio is just scary at times and far from outclassed: it matches Tentacruel and Raichu at 100 speed, has Drill Peck to play around Haunter and Counter, its attack line is the same as Snorlax's... we all don't like using it because Rhydon hurts a lot so I'm not sure on this call, but I'd leave Dodrio where it is.

You're right on Poliwrath: it has many obstacles to climb and Tentacruel is definitely the better non-hit&running water. I think we put it up there because of Hypnosis, it should drop to C.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
ok I'll drop Wrath to C.

As for Tangela, Clefable and Hypno imo aren't great comparisons as Tangela has noticeably better physical bulk than both of them while also having really useful resistances that easily compensatefor slightly inferior special bulk. Also Sleep Powder. It's true Tangela can't wear down its counters, but it does leave them in a position where they're easily exploitable and can even Bind out to something that punishes
 
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