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GSC Pre-Status/Damage

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Enigami, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Now that life is somewhat stabilized and the new server is working well, I've been able to start working on some deeper improvements to the server. One of these is working out initial HP and pre-status, which so far is looking do-able. I double-checked cartridge GSC and checked to make sure you can enter a battle with less than full HP and pre-status (you can), so things like pre-poisoned or paralyzed Pokemon to block sleep and 1 HP Reversal/Flail users may soon be very real possibilities on our server.

    I could see 1 HP Dodrio becoming a thing, Polkadot Bow 200BP STAB Flail right off the bat is absolutely horrifying:

    Polkadot Bow Dodrio Flail (200 BP) vs. Vaporeon: 406-406 (87.6 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Spikes
    Polkadot Bow Dodrio Flail (200 BP) vs. Raikou: 355-355 (92.6 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Spikes
    Polkadot Bow Dodrio Flail (200 BP) vs. Nidoking: 349-349 (95.6 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Spikes
    Polkadot Bow Dodrio Flail (200 BP) vs. Blissey: 756-756 (106 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Edit: Also, since it's flying-type it isn't stopped by throwing down Spikes. Gyarados (Reversal + Flail), Crobat (Flail), Farfetch'd (Flail), Scyther (Reversal) and Yanma (Reversal) are also flying-types that can drop their HP to 1 and spam 200BP attacks without worrying about Spikes.

    What are some other changes do you think pre-status/damage would bring to GSC? Should Cleric Clause (all Pokemon must be 'healed at a Pokemon center' before battling, preventing pre-status and pre-damage) be implemented, or should GSC 1U allow this?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
    EmmaTheOnly, Ortheore and Lutra like this.
  2. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    A couple sets for two of the better Reversal/Flail users:

    Gyarados @ Magnet
    Initial HP: 1
    - Reversal
    - Flail
    - Hidden Power [Ghost]
    - Thunder

    Magnet Thunder nets the 2HKO on Skarmory, HP Ghost 2HKOs Ghosts, pretty much everything else takes a massive beating from Reversal or Flail. All Gyarados needs to trash everything slower than itself.

    Dodrio @ Polkadot Bow
    Initial HP: 1
    - Flail
    - Drill Peck
    - Quick Attack
    - Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Water] / Hidden Power [Ghost] / Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Polkadot Bow Flail at 200BP is INSANELY powerful. HP Ground/Fighting are actually WEAKER against Normal resists, with the sole exception being Tyranitar due to its 4x weakness. Fortunately, even with HP Fire, Skarmory and Steelix are at worst 4HKO'd, and a mere breeze puts Dodrio out of commision. Other Normal resists also can check Dodrio, but they need to be wary of Dodrio's Hidden Power as it can help it net 2HKOs on many of them. Fire hits Forretress, Water hits Rhydon and Golem, Ghost hits Misdreavus and Gengar, and finally Fighting hits Tyranitar.'

    Edit: Showdown says Dodrio with Flail and Quick Attack is illegal, but I'm pretty sure it's chain breedable by breeding a Flail Eevee, leveling it up to learn Quick Attack, breeding with Farfetch'd, then finally breeding with Dodrio to get a Doduo with Flail + Quick Attack. I'll double check this later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I gotta say, this is pretty fascinating. Nothing really sticks out to me as being too absurd besides the obvious Dodrio example. Even status isn't as bad since everything is reasonably disadvantageous in GSC, unlike in RBY where Poison's feeble damage meant it was well worth it in order to gain immunity to other status

    Also if you manage to achieve this, it'd be interesting to see what it'd be like in RBY, strictly as a side project of course (I don't imagine the results would be too pretty). On that note, although it seems intriguing for GSC, I'm not sure I like the idea of it being implemented as kind of a main thing, just because that'd be a glaring inconsistency with other gens.
     
  4. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    Yeah it has my full support to be implemented, but pre-status definitely in RBY should not be the main meta (and is claused out).

    In GSC, I guess no pre-status for consistency. But lower HP could probably be legal. I know Jorgen talked before about wanting to use 1 HP Heracross or something
     
  5. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I see the reasoning on no GSC pre-status, not like it'd be worth much anyway as already stated outside of maybe pre-poisoning something with Rest so it can block sleep in the early game. I really hope pre-damage will be allowed though, since RBY doesn't care about it and GSC gets some interesting options opened with it.

    Edit: I've been looking at 1 HP Dodrio a lot in the context of a GSC 1U match, and I think that it in practice will be quite manageable, even with the teams already in existence. The setup for it to demolish teams means it'd still take plenty of strategy and maneuvering to sweep. Steelix and Skarmory are on just about every GSC team, and both are at worst 4HKO'd by Dodrio (and Steelix is only 4HKO'd if Dodrio carries HP Fire/Water). Gengar can be 2HKO'd by HP Ghost, but Gengar is still faster, so it's still a soft counter. Almost every other Normal-resist is either a check or a counter depending on Dodrio's Hidden Power. And finally, though they can't switch in to Flail + Quick Attack Dodrio, Raikou, Starmie and Jolteon can force out Dodrio or outspeed and KO it to prevent a sweep (Starmie can even use it to clear spikes at the same time), and Zapdos and Miltank both speed-tie and can beat it if they win the 50/50. My guess is it'd end up somewhere at about Marowak's level of threat, where it is absolutely terrifying in the right situation but far from unstoppable.

    Edit2: Also realized a new n00b cancer strat: Berserk Gene 1 HP Dodrio. Extremely unreliable and would more often than not end with Dodrio just killing itself, but good lord is +2 200BP Flail nasty. 2HKOs EVERYTHING outside of Steelix and Ghost-types.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
    EmmaTheOnly likes this.
  6. RBYer

    RBYer Member

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    How did this end up going?

    My GSC cartridge has a some of Pokemon that use this strategy as well as counter it.

    It's an interesting strategy but (imo) not at all broken.

    The big 4 are obviously Dodrio, Heracross, Scyther, and Gyarados. 3 of which have immunity to Spikes.

    Scyther can Swords Dance, however it can 3HKO Skarmory without it.

    All 3 can be easily revenge killed by Pursuit Crobat or Aerodactyl. Crobat survives Dodrio Flail (but not a following Quick Attack if it has Polkadot Bow) while Aerodactyl is OHKOed by Heracross Reversal. Tauros outspeeds 3 of 4 but ties with Scyther.

    Also worth mentioning is Skarmory can learn Pursuit so you wouldn't actually have to add a whole Pokemon in a lot of cases. Nidoqueen is somewhat interesting because it is great at tanking Reversals and Pursuiting back, making it work as a counter to Heracross and Scyther.
     

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