RBY NYPC Moves in Gen 1

[Golden Gyarados]

So here's an interesting discussion I dug up from TPM (The Pokemasters) today. Why not allow NYPC moves in Gen 1?

[RBY] Discussion: NYPC moves

Here's the logic: when an NYPC Pokemon was released, you obtained it by bringing your cartridge and your Game Boy to the store and trading with their kiosk. Theoretically, if the Pokemon and move existed in a Gen 1 game, you could have traded it onto your copy of Blue. And since these gift Pokemon are not associated with GSC directly, since they are technically unobtainable in those cartridges, a gift Pokemon traded directly onto a Blue cart is as legitimate as a gift Pokemon traded directly onto a Gold cart. In other words, is it really a "tradeback" if it was transferred directly onto a Gen 1 cartridge? Or is it simply a gift Pokemon like it is considered in GSC?

The discussion of whether this is possible rests on whether you consider these tradebacks or not. Consider possible definitions of tradeback:

1) A Pokemon and/or move combination only possible to obtain in GSC
- under this definition, NYPC gifts would be allowed, since the gift wasn't obtained from GSC.

2) Any element - Pokemon and/or move combination, or stat distribution - that is only possible to obtain in GSC
- under this definition, NYPC gifts still would be allowed, since the gift wasn't obtained from GSC

3) Any element - Pokemon and/or move combination, or stat distribution - that became obtainable after the release of GSC in 2000
- It's possible to forbid NYPC Pokemon using this definition if you simply use time as your marker, but under this definition, Mews distributed officially by Nintendo to RBY cartridges after the year 2000 would not be "legal," and that doesn't sound right! (eg, if Nintendo gave you your Mew in 1998, but Nintendo gave me my Mew in 2001, you could use yours and I couldn't use mine).

4) Any element - Pokemon and/or move combination, or stat distribution - that became obtainable after the release of GSC in 2000 and requires GSC to obtain
- under this definition, Mews released after 2000 are still fair game since they don't require GSC to obtain, but NYPC Pokemon could be considered acceptable as a result as well!

So it's tricky!

So let's get to the meat of this. Is this something worth entertaining? And whether you support or disagree, let's get some fun theorymonning: how would the RBY metas change with these new moves allowed?

EDITED with list of compatible NYPC Pokemon in Gen 1:

Note: Anything learned only by the Pokemon's BABY form, most notably Sing Pichu, does NOT apply because you would HAVE to level the Pokemon up to evolve it in GSC, making it easily definable as a Tradeback!

Important (in any tier):
Nidoqueen/Nidoking: Lovely Kiss
Vileplume: Leech Seed
Psyduck: Petal Dance
Poliwrath: Lovely Kiss
Tentacruel: Confuse Ray
Rapidash: Low Kick
Magneton: Agility
Dodrio: Low Kick
Onix: Sharpen
Hypno: Amnesia
Electrode: Agility
Seadra: Haze
Seaking: Swords Dance
Tauros: Quick Attack
Jolteon/Flareon/Vaporeon: Growth
Porygon: Barrier
Pinsir: Rock Throw
Kabutops: Rock Throw
Omastar: Rock Throw
Aerodactyl: Rock Throw
Snorlax: Lovely Kiss
Dragonite: Hydro Pump

Not So Important (cuz sucky or redundant):
Spearow: Sonic Boom
Psyduck: Tri Attack
Poliwrath: Growth (already gets Amnesia)
Machamp: Thrash
Victreebel: Lovely Kiss (already gets Sleep Powder)
Marowak: Fury Attack
Lickitung: Double Slap
Scyther: Sonic Boom
Gyarados: Bubble
Lapras: Bite
Snorlax: Splash

 

[Disaster Area]

Well here's some precedent. Shadow Tag Gothitelle was released a couple of months into XY, but that was a BW Event effectively (i.e. from the dream world). So whilst I'm not sure what PP should do, under Smogon's own precedent, Smogon should be required to make these changes (DV complexity discussion notwithstanding) - I think.

That being said on PP we can avoid the carnage if we go with option that once the new generation is released then any subsequent events that happen after that time are not considered legal (since we wouldn't have to follow Smogon's precedent). But, is that the right thing to do? I'm torn.

 

[Disaster Area]

Wooh RBY is safe again for another day!

I don't know where you got the information that it was ever possible to obtain Gen 2 NYPC event Pokemon in RBY without trading them from GSC, but it's completely false. They were very specific on what cartridges you were allowed to bring to the event stations, and how far into the game you had to be to obtain them at all.
Sources: 1 | 2

 

[RBYer]

Well here's some precedent. Shadow Tag Gothitelle was released a couple of months into XY, but that was a BW Event effectively (i.e. from the dream world). So whilst I'm not sure what PP should do, under Smogon's own precedent, Smogon should be required to make these changes (DV complexity discussion notwithstanding) - I think.

Well thankfully the OP isn't relevant anymore, but in the case that it was I don't see how Gothitelle acts as a precedent. DW is 5th generation, so it gets into 5th generation that way, and into 6th generation via tradeforward.

Even if the PCNY Pokemon were transferred directly to RBY, they still had no DW-like link to the old generation.

What I've always been interested about is the nature of the boundary that leads to tradeback bans. Maybe, you can't trade from events that either aren't currently being spread on Wi-Fi or never were spread on Wi-Fi, just like how you can't trade from previous generations?

There has always been this accessibility problem of certain event Pokemon. PCNY is an extreme example of it, but it's not like DW Pokemon are exactly accessible either in 5th generation. Tradebacks are much, much more accessible for example. Where we draw our boundaries does seem somewhat arbitrary, considering how we lay down the law on GSC -> RBY tradebacks, yet allow Pokemon that never were really accessible.

I bring this up due to the chronology thing regarding Gothitelle. If chronology is our basis, then we should disallow Shadow Tag Gothitelle in BW. However, if we don't allow Gothitelle, we are saying chronology is not our basis, and instead the basis is more of a generational interference thing.

And if it is in fact a generational interference thing, you can make a pretty good case that PCNY is in some sort of parallel generation outside of the games. It has always (for over a decade) been my opinion that the games should be used as a basis for legality, and I don't expect people to agree with this but I will try to explain why it's clean and neat.

Dream World abilities and Mew were hard-coded into the games. Specific abilities were chosen for each Pokemon which could/would be unlocked at the discretion of Pokemon Company and affiliates.

However, when you take PCNY Pokemon into Pokemon Stadium 2 check for legitimacy of movesets, the Pokemon are illegitimate. PCNY basically runs in opposition to the games, which is something I believe to be unprecedented otherwise. As said in the other thread, PCNY is essentially Satan, but not due to some sort of irrational reaction, but rather due to the games themselves being God.

When the main arena game from Generation 2 says that moves are illegitimate, that really says something.

Maybe it's just time to propose a Stadium 2 metagame, where illegitimate moves are recognized as such. And Item Clause makes things interesting by cutting up the stall nature and turning it more RBY-like. If we can have a Stadium metagame, why not Stadium 2?

 

[Enigami]

Maybe it's just time to propose a Stadium 2 metagame, where illegitimate moves are recognized as such. And Item Clause makes things interesting by cutting up the stall nature and turning it more RBY-like. If we can have a Stadium metagame, why not Stadium 2?

That's... a really interesting idea actually. At the very least, 'GSC Stadium' is a much better name than 'GSC No Event Moves'.