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GSC Little Big Cup Mega-Thread
- Thread starter Enigami
- Start date
Implemented all viability changes except Arcanine A > B. Sunflora technically has Growth going for it, and Parasect might be able to pull something with Stun Spore/Swords Dance/Thief, while Dewgong has nothing. Parasect and Sunflora might atleast have some potential as gimmicks, but Dewgong is just straight up pointless as far as I can see.
supercube64
Member
Wow I actually didn't take that into account to be honest. You have a good point. I wasn't really thinking about their other moves at the time when I wrote that.
supercube64
Member
I feel like Starmie has the potential of Being in S as well. The thing is I don't really see any major flaws with it. Fantastic movepool, good typing in the meta, Is the only Mon along with Porygon2 with access to recover (though synthesis is debatably just like Recover), Great Speed, and Good stats overall.
Is it possible to use Stadium 1 or 2 to move them around? If you move them into the Stadium box storage and then off they won't evolve.
Edit: Well that doesn't help you with the traded Haunter to get Xatu.... At least you can get Gengar!
Actually, I don't think you can get Lvl 5 Gengar even with this. When you trade Cubone for Machoke, Machoke will evolve unless there is some way of stopping in-game trade evolutions. On the other hand, if some way were discovered then Xatu would be legal again as well. Start with Yellow > Trade Cubone for Machoke > Prevent Machamp Evolution > Trade to Stadium then Blue (JPN) > Trade Machoke for Haunter > Prevent Gengar Evolution > Trade to Stadium then Crystal > Trade Haunter for Xatu.
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RBYer
Member
I agree with the sentiment of Starmie being S class. Also with moves generally being more powerful, Speed is a lot more valuable and Starmie's Hydro Pump is ridiculously overpowered in particular.
I'm not sure that Exeggutor has what it takes to justify an S class ranking, with its speed and 4x weakness. You can stick HP Bug on anything and get a 2hko, and in Machamp's case, a OHKO more often than not. STAB HP Bug from Scizor and Parasect are guaranteed OHKOs.
Also, Parasect at D rank seems like overkill. Spore alone gives it a unique place, with an ability to set off double powder really easily. I'd move it to B.
Electrode should probably move up to A, with its great ability to revenge kill + explode kill. A set like Thunderbolt, HP Fire, Substitute, Explosion seems very effective against a wide variety of stuff. The stat mechanics make its Explosion significantly more powerful at level 5 than at level 100. For example, it has a 79% chance of OHKOing Exeggutor, yet at level 100 it maxes out at 79% damage with a perfect roll.
I'm not sure that Exeggutor has what it takes to justify an S class ranking, with its speed and 4x weakness. You can stick HP Bug on anything and get a 2hko, and in Machamp's case, a OHKO more often than not. STAB HP Bug from Scizor and Parasect are guaranteed OHKOs.
Also, Parasect at D rank seems like overkill. Spore alone gives it a unique place, with an ability to set off double powder really easily. I'd move it to B.
Electrode should probably move up to A, with its great ability to revenge kill + explode kill. A set like Thunderbolt, HP Fire, Substitute, Explosion seems very effective against a wide variety of stuff. The stat mechanics make its Explosion significantly more powerful at level 5 than at level 100. For example, it has a 79% chance of OHKOing Exeggutor, yet at level 100 it maxes out at 79% damage with a perfect roll.
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Starmie > S I don't disagree with, Exeggutor was just the first to stand out for reasons below. I think I'll move it up.
Exeggutor > not S however I heavily disagree with. Parasect is virtually non-existant, Scizor doesn't always run HP Bug (HP Ground+Steel Wing keeps it from being walled for example) and hates HP Fire from Eggy. Also, Exeggutor threatens to OHKO Machamp with Psychic, so Machamp is not exactly a counter. Exeggutor has Explosion, Stun Spore, and most of all it is the only Pokemon with a 75% accurate sleep move (edit: also there is no Heal Bell, and with everything taking more damage Resttalk is a lot less viable, so sleep is much stronger). The only other sleepers available are Hypnosis Ninetales and Sing Wigglytuff. Thanks to Gold Berry's recovery, if the opponent can't OHKO then Exeggutor is likely to trade up just by sleeping something and then exploding on something else.
Parasect > B... did you read the op at all? Level 5 Parasect is obtained through a trade, which means event moves, egg moves, and level-up moves past level 5 cannot be obtained. That unfortunately means no Spore or Growth, among other things. Make sure to check move illegalities in the OP before posting, there are very important changes there (such as no Spikes on Cloyster).
Electrode > A needs results before I'd move it up, A is already crowded with very strong Electrics. Jolteon is very fast, armed with Growth and has all the coverage it needs here with just STAB + HP Fire, and Raichu has Thief (VERY useful move here)+Surf and enough Attack to switch into and beat opposing Electrics 1v1 with HP Ground. Explosion is definitely a niche, but does Electrode match up to Jolteon and Raichu well enough to deserve to be ranked with them?
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RBYer
Member
Well my bad about the Parasect thing. My skim went over the "resources" part.
In that case, yeah Exeggutor can stay in S.
Ugh Growtheons... Jolteon should be S if that is legit, but I still don't think that takes away the A-ness of Electrode. Explosion isn't really a "niche". It's a move that can be used to take out 1 Pokemon almost every game. I can't think of any Explosions more valuable in standard metagames, than the fastest Pokemon almost able to guarantee taking something out.
Electrode can also clear the way for the more potent electrics by blowing up Dugtrios/others. Explosion can kill everything except Exeggutor (79% OHKO), Cloyster (0% OHKO), and resisters (0% OHKO). Only the fairly useless Steelix can really be seen as a check, as it can avoid the 2hko from HP Fire almost all the time. It also provides valuable insurance against a Jolteon sweep.
I don't see why Electrics should be seen as creating some sort of imbalance when used together, as 2 are so fast and the third has amazing coverage, and not much can repeatedly defend against them. You can stick Jolteon, Electrode, and Raichu on the same team. They don't really "outclass" because they are not really in competition. Hell, Dugtrio only outspeeds one of them. It's like Tauros/Snorlax/Persian in RBY. They can actually feed off each other.
I also feel like Muk is generally better than Cloyster, due to A) Sludge Bomb/Fire Blast coverage B) the ability to survive basically every unboosted special attack (Exeggutor's Psychic only has a 2.6% chance of OHKO). Muk stands out more as better than its rank, than Cloyster as worse, so I'd probably move him up to B.
I also need convincing that Flareon is better than Vaporeon rather than the other way around. Hydro Pump from Starmie kills it all the time. Vaporeon also just generally has way more suitable stats, and can Bite/Ice Beam Exeggutor for the kill, without taking it below 50%.
Of the Fire types, I find Arcanine less useful than Ninetales, because it doesn't get Hypnosis (or Confuse Ray, which allows Ninetales a chance to take something down), and its main advantages (attack and speed), don't do it all that much good. There is probably a case for Ninetales being the best Fire, but both Ninetales and Flareon are probably above Arcanine.
I'd be interested in playing some games with anyone interested - contact/PM me if interested.
PS: How do you get Recover on Porygon2/Hydro Pump on Starmie? I don't think you can get eggs without Ditto, and they aren't starting moves.
In that case, yeah Exeggutor can stay in S.
Ugh Growtheons... Jolteon should be S if that is legit, but I still don't think that takes away the A-ness of Electrode. Explosion isn't really a "niche". It's a move that can be used to take out 1 Pokemon almost every game. I can't think of any Explosions more valuable in standard metagames, than the fastest Pokemon almost able to guarantee taking something out.
Electrode can also clear the way for the more potent electrics by blowing up Dugtrios/others. Explosion can kill everything except Exeggutor (79% OHKO), Cloyster (0% OHKO), and resisters (0% OHKO). Only the fairly useless Steelix can really be seen as a check, as it can avoid the 2hko from HP Fire almost all the time. It also provides valuable insurance against a Jolteon sweep.
I don't see why Electrics should be seen as creating some sort of imbalance when used together, as 2 are so fast and the third has amazing coverage, and not much can repeatedly defend against them. You can stick Jolteon, Electrode, and Raichu on the same team. They don't really "outclass" because they are not really in competition. Hell, Dugtrio only outspeeds one of them. It's like Tauros/Snorlax/Persian in RBY. They can actually feed off each other.
I also feel like Muk is generally better than Cloyster, due to A) Sludge Bomb/Fire Blast coverage B) the ability to survive basically every unboosted special attack (Exeggutor's Psychic only has a 2.6% chance of OHKO). Muk stands out more as better than its rank, than Cloyster as worse, so I'd probably move him up to B.
I also need convincing that Flareon is better than Vaporeon rather than the other way around. Hydro Pump from Starmie kills it all the time. Vaporeon also just generally has way more suitable stats, and can Bite/Ice Beam Exeggutor for the kill, without taking it below 50%.
Of the Fire types, I find Arcanine less useful than Ninetales, because it doesn't get Hypnosis (or Confuse Ray, which allows Ninetales a chance to take something down), and its main advantages (attack and speed), don't do it all that much good. There is probably a case for Ninetales being the best Fire, but both Ninetales and Flareon are probably above Arcanine.
I'd be interested in playing some games with anyone interested - contact/PM me if interested.
PS: How do you get Recover on Porygon2/Hydro Pump on Starmie? I don't think you can get eggs without Ditto, and they aren't starting moves.
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supercube64
Member
I thought you can simply breed with the parent that has access to hydro pump, and the Staryu will get it from the parent. Then just evolve it with a water stone. Same goes for porygon 2 with recover. Forgive me if any of my information is incorrect. Also, I'd argue that hypnosis generally sucks and is inferior to other sleep inducing moves(seriously I cant even remember when people ran hypnosis on any of their pokemon that has access to it). Confuse ray is ok, but its all luck honestly, and not enough to justify using Ninetales over Flareon or Arcanine imo. Arcanine has stats that are far superior than Ninetales.
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It's mandatory on most things that get it in RBY; in GSC OU Misdreavus and Gengar commonly use it although not on every set, I can think of a couple of examples in ADV (Gengar in ADV 1U sometimes, Ninetales in Smogon's ADV UU, Haunter and sometimes Chimecho in ADV NU), and I've heard of it being used on Bronzong in DPP. Confuse Ray is only seen on Lapras in RBY 1U and in a couple of gimmicky examples throughout the generations.
RBYer
Member
I really don't believe that Hydro Pump or Recover Starmie, or Recover or Agility Porygon2 are possible. If they are it changes things, but I'm writing under the assumption that they aren't possible.
Especially in level 5 battles where offense is so strong, Hypnosis is essentially a one-time use kill shot, which also gives you a free attack. It's obviously "inferior" to Sleep Powder, but it's not like you have much of a choice between them.
Arcanine may be a better Pokemon than Ninetales statistically, but not by too much.
HP: Arcanine 28, Ninetales 26
Attack: Arcanine 20, Ninetales 17 (neither can really use physical attacks though)
Defense: Arcanine 17, Ninetales 17 (Arcanine is better against physical attacks due to HP, 54% vs 10% chance of surviving Dugtrio Earthquake)
Speed: tie at 19
Special Attack: Arcanine 19, Ninetales 17 (probably the biggest deal)
Special Defense: Arcanine 17, Ninetales 19
The problem with Arcanine is that there isn't much stuff that it can beat in a 1 on 1 in a convincing fashion that sets it apart from other fires. Flamethrower only kills Exeggutor 61% of the time, and Ninetales' Fire Blast kills Exeggutor every time it hits (85%), so no advantage there. With the way berries work, you may be best off running both Flamethrower and Fire Blast, but it's not like Fire STAB runs over stuff.
Arcanine does have a good chance of winning in a 1v1 with Jolteon (Flamethrower to 1-2 HP above 50%, hope for a good roll with Fire Blast, or Body Slam for para which isn't quite as good percentage-wise). However, the rest of its movepool doesn't do it that much good. What would be the standard set? Flamethrower/Sunny Day, Fire Blast/Sunny Day, Crunch, Body Slam/Sunny Day? It just doesn't have anything even close to as useful as Hypnosis.
Ninetales has more options in those free sleep turns. Sunny Day, Substitute, Confuse Ray: all options that Arcanine doesn't really have the ability to make use of.
How I'm feeling about ranks now:
S: Jolteon, Exeggutor, Starmie
A: Electrode, Dugtrio, Vaporeon, Flareon, Ninetales, Raichu, Scizor
B: Arcanine, Muk, Cloyster, Slowking, Porygon2
C: Steelix, Machamp, Wigglytuff
D: Magneton, Dewgong, Parasect, Sunflora
Is there a reason for Magneton to be C rank? It can be 2hkod by almost everything, and has a terribly limited movepool. With 3 vastly superior Electric types out there, it seems very irrelevant. It's slow with a worse typing (weak to HP Fire, 4x to ground).
Scizor seems tricky to figure out, and is very metagame dependent. All that a lot of Pokemon have to do is stick HP Fire on their movesets, and it is dead. However, if Scizors aren't really floating around, then there will be a little less HP Fire and Scizor can get better. But with Sunny Day and Exeggutors, I don't think Scizor will ever have a comfortable home.
Especially in level 5 battles where offense is so strong, Hypnosis is essentially a one-time use kill shot, which also gives you a free attack. It's obviously "inferior" to Sleep Powder, but it's not like you have much of a choice between them.
Arcanine may be a better Pokemon than Ninetales statistically, but not by too much.
HP: Arcanine 28, Ninetales 26
Attack: Arcanine 20, Ninetales 17 (neither can really use physical attacks though)
Defense: Arcanine 17, Ninetales 17 (Arcanine is better against physical attacks due to HP, 54% vs 10% chance of surviving Dugtrio Earthquake)
Speed: tie at 19
Special Attack: Arcanine 19, Ninetales 17 (probably the biggest deal)
Special Defense: Arcanine 17, Ninetales 19
The problem with Arcanine is that there isn't much stuff that it can beat in a 1 on 1 in a convincing fashion that sets it apart from other fires. Flamethrower only kills Exeggutor 61% of the time, and Ninetales' Fire Blast kills Exeggutor every time it hits (85%), so no advantage there. With the way berries work, you may be best off running both Flamethrower and Fire Blast, but it's not like Fire STAB runs over stuff.
Arcanine does have a good chance of winning in a 1v1 with Jolteon (Flamethrower to 1-2 HP above 50%, hope for a good roll with Fire Blast, or Body Slam for para which isn't quite as good percentage-wise). However, the rest of its movepool doesn't do it that much good. What would be the standard set? Flamethrower/Sunny Day, Fire Blast/Sunny Day, Crunch, Body Slam/Sunny Day? It just doesn't have anything even close to as useful as Hypnosis.
Ninetales has more options in those free sleep turns. Sunny Day, Substitute, Confuse Ray: all options that Arcanine doesn't really have the ability to make use of.
How I'm feeling about ranks now:
S: Jolteon, Exeggutor, Starmie
A: Electrode, Dugtrio, Vaporeon, Flareon, Ninetales, Raichu, Scizor
B: Arcanine, Muk, Cloyster, Slowking, Porygon2
C: Steelix, Machamp, Wigglytuff
D: Magneton, Dewgong, Parasect, Sunflora
Is there a reason for Magneton to be C rank? It can be 2hkod by almost everything, and has a terribly limited movepool. With 3 vastly superior Electric types out there, it seems very irrelevant. It's slow with a worse typing (weak to HP Fire, 4x to ground).
Scizor seems tricky to figure out, and is very metagame dependent. All that a lot of Pokemon have to do is stick HP Fire on their movesets, and it is dead. However, if Scizors aren't really floating around, then there will be a little less HP Fire and Scizor can get better. But with Sunny Day and Exeggutors, I don't think Scizor will ever have a comfortable home.
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Any level-up moves obtainable by the first stage are fully possible to obtain via breeding. So yes, Starmie and Porygon2 have Recover, among other moves.
RBYer
Member
How exactly? I bred a Level 15 Porygon with Ditto (with Agility and Psybeam) and got a baby with only its level 0 moves.
Based on the following, it would appear that Starmie and Porygon2 don't get Recover:
Bulbapedia said:
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supercube64
Member
Yeah I wrote that with GSC only on the mind. Also most Misdreavus's I know of do not use hypnosis in any of their sets. This is the typical set I see most of them run: Mean Look, Perish Song,Protect, Thunder/Attract/Confuse ray
supercube64
Member
Those stats kind of make a huge difference however. I really don't think Hypnosis and confuse ray are enough to warrant Ninetails as "better" than Arcanine. Aside from hypnosis and ray, your basically using an inferior version of Arcanine the way I see it . I'll admit I wasn't giving Hypnosis enough credit (and I'll admit it does give Ninetails a niche over Arcanine and Flareon) but take that out of the equation and you have a disadvantaged Arcanine.
Oh, that's right. I forgot Staryu and Porygon could only breed with Ditto. Well, that changes things considerably for them. Good catch.
Well SleepPerishTrap [Perish Song + Mean Look + Hypnosis] is banned in GSC OU, and non-Perish Trap Missy runs Hypnosis (not a common set, but viable)
RBYer
Member
Confuse Ray is not even an essential part of Ninetales, but it's more like how it can use it on switch-ins and then get out if it has to. Hypnosis yes... I think you are still underestimating it.
Sleep is insanely overpowered in this metagame. Ninetales is essentially taking the role that Jynx/Gengar play in RBY. It also can survive Starmie's Surf except for the perfect 1/39 probability roll. Over a 91% chance it survives that, accounting for criticals. If Starmie got Hydro Pump, I would stick all fires in B rank but thankfully that is not the case.
I'm not saying that Ninetales is something extremely overpowered, but I think it does belong in A rank over Arcanine, because Arcanine is left with the best stats, but no niche like Ninetales and Flareon.
Keep in mind there are a grand total of 2 Pokemon who can even even remotely use sleep moves. There is Wigglytuff Sing, but it's a worse move on a not very good Pokemon. So even if you run Exeggutor, you may want to also run Ninetales for a lead, or in case if Exeggutor fails or your opponent sacrifices their sleeping Pokemon.
PS: I was fooling around and realized that there is a rather huge disadvantage to using HP Fire, especially for Jolteon. HP Fire chops off 2 HP, taking it from 26 to 24, which makes it not only less bulky, but less effective at using Substitute. I'm someone who never liked HP Water and Grass on Zapdos in GSC for similar reasons, but this goes well beyond that.
Basically, if your base HP ends with a 4 or a 5, you lose 2 HP from the drop of the HP DV to 3. And with the existence of Dugtrio, there is more motivation to use HP Ice anyway, so that may be a better idea. Something like Thunderbolt, HP Ice, Substitute, Growth behind para/confusion support can be extremely deadly. And that makes me pretty emphatic about keeping Scizor in A rank. Also, Thunderbolt would still do more against Magneton than HP Ice against Steelix, so I don't see any reason to move Magneton up. Although Steelix could have a strong case for B rank.
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supercube64
Member
Good argument actually. I forget Ninetails is the only sleep inducer other then Eggy that's actually good.