ADV Ubers Kyogre Suspect: Vote

[Isa]

nah this vote is a sham now and should be cancelled

the only ones allowed to vote were the ones participating in one (1) tournament that wasn't announced as being a qualification for a vote. there's no objective fair criterion to salvage this either because PP doesn't have Predictability as one of it's three keywords and thus nobody knows ahead of time what's a requirement for a vote, and we get this situation where the list of voters is allowed to change mid-vote (the solution doesn't even rectify the problem btw, because 0 game people still have their vote count...and it's a fucking ongoing tournament where you can join anytime so the issues should be obvious lol). the only way to salvage this is to cancel this vote, set a PREDICTABLE criteria on what qualifies for ANY vote on PP and then redo.

 

[GGFan]

Well, we are not on a point to ban Groudon yet, if we were, I would vote to ban Groudon too, with the same arguments.

Edit: Which is, btw, just possible if we ban Kyogre first.

And that is what I meant by "irrelevant". It is irrelevant now because we weren´t asked to vote on Groudon YET. The very same applies to Groudon. That is what I implied before too, by stating that "It´s not like we wouldn´t suspect things like Groudon and Soul Dew afterwards".
You should read (and, most importantly, understand) what I just wrote before, before having a big mouth on a point you didn´t quite get, just because you disagree with my personal vote.

Well, they don't call him Notorious Big Mouth for nothing.

Also, yeah, this topic is pretty stupid, but not for the reasons one may think. It's stupid because we have people who are being way too pedantic about the requirement, almost as if they're random people. I see Disaster Area, Ortheore, and Enigami, all who have been dedicated to gen exploration and development for quite some time. As much as I dislike Ortheore sometimes for his cowardly like mobbing, I won't deny that he has invested a great deal of time and energy into every gen. Not much needs to be said about Disaster Area at this point, for he is essentially the heart and soul of PP, and that includes ADV. Enigami can be kind of a jerk once in a while, but he's nonetheless well known for his passion with research and experimentation. Besides them you have Cowboy Dan, Sunny, PhilosopherKing--quite the "who's who" of ADV. Practically everybody in that tournament is more than qualified to vote. Knock it off with this "Well, all I have to do is get my random buddies to invade the thread" nonsense. Hardly anybody in that tournament is a random.

Yes, there absolutely should be requirements for voting, and the New Frontiers tournament is a good start. However, even a cursory glance reveals some problems that I think should be improved for future iterations. Firstly, it would be better if, before the voting begins, make an announcement so that as many people as possible are aware of it. The poll results reveal that the userbase is torn about this, which gives the tournament a logical purpose, so obviously you want more people to be aware of it. Another suggestion I have is to host these tournaments in separate forums. If not for the link you provided, I wouldn't have been able to find it. Also, they would benefit from introductions as well. As it stands, it looks very arbitrary and unofficial.

Another requirement you may consider would be to allow voting only from people who have had accounts in good standing for a certain period of time (maybe 3 months or so) as well as active participation in tournaments and/or discussion. Yes, this will isolate some people from Smogon, but better to keep the PP community in mind than appease a few Smogon users who barely do anything here anyway.

Also, one more thing: PP was made with the intention of allowing people to express their ideas freely, even if these ideas disagree strongly with Smogon’s. Being abrasive, calling site administrators and other people names like “joke,” "stupid," and “idiot,” and being overly verbose will not get your point across. If you disagree, that’s fine, but you must accept that there are people here who view things differently. And what’s wrong with that? All it really means in the end is that you get a different metagame to play than you would on Smogon. I didn’t complain when some forums allowed Wrap, for example. If Wrap was allowed, I played with Wrap allowed. If Wrap was banned, then I played with Wrap banned.

 

[Ch01W0n5h1n]

Absolutely right. It doesn´t make sense to let people vote that don´t know about PP´s tiering philosophies (or don´t consider them while forming an opinion), so overall, recent and specific activity would be a good way to actually include anyone who meets all basic requirements: Involvement on the forum and thus understanding the way PP forms tiers, knowledge and responsibility.

 

[PhilosopherKing]

One of the reasons I joined this tournament is because I see the awesome potential of rebuilding Adv 1U from scratch. Not only does it allow for opportunities to explore and test new things, but it also affords us the chance to reaffirm and better understand the reasons why the legacy tiers existed in the first place.

I think any long-term growth for this community requires that it possess its own identity. The best way it can do that is to consistently apply the community’s own tiering philosophy, regardless of how many feathers are rustled in the short-term. I am glad people want to vote, and I am actually more glad than disappointed that people care so much that they are willing to conspire to form a “No ban” coalition.

However, everyone needs to understand the proposition for which they are voting. We are NOT proposing to ban Kyogre from Uber’s. Rather, we are debating whether it should stay in 1U. I think some people are now realizing this fact, but now the goal posts have shifted from complaining about the vote itself to how the vote was conducted. In retrospect, I think it could have been handled better by not making it an open vote, but it is immoral to insult DA and others who have actually participated in the retiering process. We would love to have you join the fun in the future so you can have a better voice. In the meantime, restricting the vote to those who actually participated is the only non-arbitrary way of making the vote fair without any of the corruptive influences of a mob-vote conspiracy.

 

[Ortheore]

The silver lining on this mess is we've had some people contribute some valuable perspectives on the tier. I think it's done some good for both ubers and 1u. Like even though I was a little hostile towards Illusions because of their tone, their post had some great content. I'm genuinely re-evaluating my position, though I think it's unlikely I change my vote- it's more likely I change my mind about suspecting Ogre before Soul Dew lol, but it's a bit late for that.

Anyway, I support DA's actions in response to this. I do want to point out that we don't have a strong precedent in terms of requirements for suspects, because we've held few suspects, and tbh some of them were scrapped early on. We do however, have a strong precedent for requiring involvement in New Frontiers for tiering decisions (unless the tier receives significant activity via other tours on PP, ie it's RBY 1U). Based on this, it's not as though we're blindsiding people with this requirement. The other complaint about requiring New Frontiers involvement is that it's an open tour that anyone can join. This is true, but by playing games you're exerting effort that helps further everyone's understanding of the tier, regardless of your true motives. By simply requiring that you have played some games we select users who have done something to help progress things and honestly I think that's fine in scenarios where performance-based criteria are unreasonable

 

[Disaster Area]

This is now over.

Kyogre has been banned from the provisional 1U tier, making ADV 1C, which is ADV 1B without Kyogre, the new provisional 1U tier to be tested. ADV 1B will become ADV 1P when tiering is complete.

If you wish to be involved in future decisions, we are introducing this rule: you need to have joined the ADV 1C New Frontiers tournament and played at least 9 games to be eligible to vote.

The server has been updated.

I am locking this thread now.

 

[Disaster Area]

Edited it up to 9 games after discussion with Lusch. People need to show a little dedication to vote, given the events that occurred during this vote.