ADV Ubers Kyogre Suspect: Vote

[Ortheore]

I do give a shit about the tier, and i like this forum. But i dont want that a whole tier gets destroyed bc some people doesnt wanna change something by any price. Look at the arguments people bring to ban Kyogre.
Sunny only wants it banned to see how the other usuages rise but he never played Ubers.
I bet most guys who voted ban never really played this tier or just started it.
They should at least explain why they want Kyogre banned. Otherwise i can make 10 fake accounts and vote no ban lol

I can recall chats where you argued strongly against PP's tiering approach in general, for attempting to actually be independent of smogon. Also how will this tier be destroyed if we ban Ogre? Is this purely from a game balance perspective?

I could just as easily deride the arguments for it not being broken, which if you exclude blatantly inaccurate stuff amount to "there's a Lati on every team", as if that's enough to call it balanced and as if Kyogre can't fuck shit up even with Latis being everywhere. Oh, I guess the "if we ban Ogre, Don will be nuts", which has literally never been a valid line of reasoning in any suspect on any site, and for good reason.

 

[Hack]

Disclaimer: Melle requested me to write up my thoughts on the issue. I don't intend to trample your party or anything I just wanted to make a sensible argument in a not-so sensible debate. If you feel I pushed your buttons too hard here feel free to not count my vote.

Sometimes I feel intrigued by the freedom PP offers in terms of tier construction but more often than not I feel you guys are pushing shit way too far. Ok, arbitrary bans on problematic (but arguably not broken) elements from what I remember in your "Ubers" tier (this is in quotation mark to not confuse uninclusive tier with the tier I lead) are hard to refute. It's clear that things like for example Mega Gengar, impacts on what we perceive to be "quality" of a tier we play.

But let's get to the issue here. Kyogre in generation 3 is not even remotely broken and there has been 0 complaints amongst the competitive playerbase in the tier about this in any competition. Why is that so?

I shouldn't even go into technicalities but hey, start by looking at the 5 best mons in the tier: Kyogre, Groudon, Latios Latias, and Blissey (yes I'm 1000 % serious and if you even try to refute this axiom I will not go easy on you). Pattern? Non of the other top mons in the tier are actually bad vs Kyogre. It should be self-explanatory in the case of the mirror and Lati/Bliss but Groudon commonly runs massive Sdef investment- not catered to the purpose of checking Kyogre per se mind you- and can thus sometimes serve a weather reset on a predicted CM/Twave.

I won't do a checklist explanation but stop that dumb shit with Ludicolo in the other thread. It's a superb Kyogre counter combined with a roar Kyogre on your own to check sub variants. My best team uses Ludicolo and it even easily beats Toxic variants in the long run. To the question of what checks Kyogre we can add that many teams easily fit 2-3 answers to Kyogre. ADV Ubers has less of a "list of things to check" than later Uber generations and this gives you the freedom to use for instance, Double Latis, Blissey+Lati, Ludicolo+Roar Kyogre, Sdef Groudon+Blissey+Lati, Lanturn+Lati, Shedinja+Blissey, Quagsire+Blissey. The list goes on.

More importantly is: if Kyogre is actually broken then why is it that dedicated sun teams are equally strong to dedicated rain teams? (They are arguably better but don't try me saying sun is less of a playstyle in the tier because then I will know you actually don't play the tier). I've played several high level series where Kyogre hasn't even been used fwiw.

I'll end with saying I'd ad homeniem Piex opinon and consider it a trolling attempt if I didn't know him. That he actually suggests Rayquaza to be broken shows exactly how proficient he is at the tier.

no ban

 

[Disaster Area]

I do give a shit about the tier, and i like this forum. But i dont want that a whole tier gets destroyed bc some people doesnt wanna change something by any price. Look at the arguments people bring to ban Kyogre.
Sunny only wants it banned to see how the other usuages rise but he never played Ubers.
I bet most guys who voted ban never really played this tier or just started it.
They should at least explain why they want Kyogre banned. Otherwise i can make 10 fake accounts and vote no ban lol

I spoke w/ sunny in DMs before the post and he does think Ogre is broke but yeah his argument posted is not a great one. He does have some experience playing ubers but he doesn't have that much time to play these days just in general.

Also we can spot alts.

...

Also with Rayquaza I don't think it's broken at all when you have all this other stuff legal but if you were to ban Kyogre + Soul Dew + Groudon + Mewtwo I think it would be broken. I also don't think Mewtwo is broken until you ban Kyogre + Soul Dew + maybe Groudon. My personal feeling though as it stands is that Kyogre / Groudon / Soul Dew are all broken. They all feel like if you give them an inch they take a mile... one mistake and they open you up.

Speaking again on a guttural level, I feel like the only things that are more broken than Kyogre, Pokemon-wise, are RBY Mewtwo and ORAS Mega Rayquaza. I also think that banned BP strats in some gens, OHKO particularly in early gens, and maybe evasion in some later gens are less banworthy than Kyogre. Obviously the gut shouldn't decide everything but once you're somewhat competent at Pokemon I think it's worth listening to. It's by default a subjective and imperfect process.

It's also democracy. We have a different point of view on what's broken.

Also melle, no supect is stupid. We've had votes on banning chansey and removing freeze clause in RBY even though they were unlikely to pass, because some people supported the notion. It's fine to say you think banning Kyogre is dumb, but having the suspect or other people having a different opinion is not.

Plus, regarding people's proficiency with the tier: if you have barely any relevant resources, yes players who picked up the tier a couple months ago are going to suck.

 

[melle2402]

Just make a new tier without the S rank mons then lol and dont change everything in this tier.
Make a tournament with kyogre, groudon and latis banned and see how it goes. But don't change anything in this tier

 

[Disaster Area]

I mean, if the vote does ban Kyogre, the tier will still exist exactly as it is as ADV 1P once the tiers are finalised. It just won't be 1U.

 

[The Notorious B.I.G.]

no ban because what hack outlined summarizes my thoughts to a tee, even though bliss isn't top 5

 

[Ch01W0n5h1n]

The goal of these Legacy Suspect votes are not to critizise Ubers, but rather to create a new 1u.

Would Smogon declare Ubers to be the new OU? No. Our goal is different, we want a playable tier that could, in theory, replace the old 1u (with the old 1u still being avaible as a Legacy Tier), which may result in more mons potentially being avaible to play, or fewer Mons being avaible in the Tier than it used to be (or to keep it as it was before, which is also a possibility).
Therefore, opinions on "Ubers" on it´s own are irrelavant, as Smogon Ubers are Smogon Ubers, which aren´t intended to be played as the standard Tier, but rather exist for players that enjoy playing a Meta that consists of Mons that are considered to be "too broken" to be used in a standard Meta.

And "Sun being a legitimate and playable Teamstyle that equals Rain" doesn´t count either.
It´s not like we wouldn´t suspect things like Groudon and Soul Dew afterwards.
The Mons DA mentioned before are just so much apart from the other Mons, that the only thing that prevents other broken mons from taking over are Mons that affect the Meta even more, to a point where things like "Omastar" are considered legit Meta options due to Kyogre being avaible.

 

[PhilosopherKing]

My vote is to ban Kyogre from 1U.

While it would be inaccurate to say that Kyogre has no answers or checks, those Pokémon that function in these roles are too few. Ludicolo, Latios+Latias, Blissey, and Lanturn come to mind, but nothing else really is reliable.

Even then, Blissey is only kind of reliable. It can kind of threaten with Toxic, But takes almost 50% from +1 Hydro Pump in the Rain. It can run Psych Up to compensate, but it loses a valuable move slot in the process and provides an easy free switch once the move is exposed. Ludicolo also takes a ton from Thunder and Ice Beam and only really annoys in the end.

I would say that double Lati is the most reliable way of dealing without a Kyogre. But regardless, it is unhealthy for the metagame to have one Pokémon exert such an overwhelming dominance in the metagame with so few reliable answers/checks. If this was a debate of whether to ban in 1P/Uber's, I would not be for banning, but for the sake of 1U, it makes perfect sense to do so.

 

[The Notorious B.I.G.]

@pk psych up?????

just run calm mind

@chw9271937913891839183 whatever the fuck your name is

how is omastar or any swift swimmer (kabu etc) considered an example of kyogre being centralized yet you say rain + sun being on similar terms in regards to playstyles is irrelevant when eggy and shiftry are considered metagame options (on similar level to omastar) due to groudon being available. while trying to make a point, you somehow contradicted yourself to the point of it being an oxymoron (i acknowledge that rain and sun are equal playstyles yet it is "irrelevant". however, kyogre should be banned because it allows things like omastar to be viable. the same can't be said for egg in sun though!!!") in the span of two sentences. quite humorous if you ask me.

 

[Ch01W0n5h1n]

Well, we are not on a point to ban Groudon yet, if we were, I would vote to ban Groudon too, with the same arguments.

Edit: Which is, btw, just possible if we ban Kyogre first.

And that is what I meant by "irrelevant". It is irrelevant now because we weren´t asked to vote on Groudon YET. The very same applies to Groudon. That is what I implied before too, by stating that "It´s not like we wouldn´t suspect things like Groudon and Soul Dew afterwards".
You should read (and, most importantly, understand) what I just wrote before, before having a big mouth on a point you didn´t quite get, just because you disagree with my personal vote.

 

[PhilosopherKing]

Ok, Blissey runs Calm Mind. It is still disadvantaged in a set up war. It would need a Thunder/Calm Mind/Toxic/Softboiled set to stand a chance. Even then, it must be at full health and avoid switching into Kyogre as it goes +1. Plus, you are screwed if it subs on Toxic. You can break the sub with Thunder, but not before it goes to +2 as you do so. How is that reliable?

 

[Cowboy Dan]

I feel like the problem here is that people are looking at kyogre through the lens of ubers. It's not "broken" in the sense that it can't be reasonably checked, there are plenty of checks to it. The problem for me is that there are around 4 or 5 pokemon (kyogre included) that are just such a large step above the rest of the tier, which is fine in an ubers meta but not fine for a standard 1u meta. Take a look at current adv ou as an example. Tyranitar is a decent step above everything else, but below it you have the other s ranks and a plethora of a ranks and while some are certainly more powerful than others, they all feel as if they are in the same 'league' so to speak. There's a lot of room for argument concerning the exact relative power of each of those pokemon. When you compare that to what's going on in the current iteration of 1b, there's no denying there's a huge difference. The purpose of this tiering project isn't to give ADV ubers players an opportunity to play some games in that tier, it's to create a new standard tier. To those of you saying this is going to set off a chain reaction of bans, you're absolutely right but that's kind of the point of what we're doing here.

BAN

 

[Isa]

why is it that everyone is allowed to vote here but i wasnt allowed to vote in the suspect that was raised strictly because of a post i made that got barely any support

sunny "not having the chance to play at all" yet voting is ridiculous. it's super unclear how many of the voters in this thread have any form of relevant experience in the tier and considering that this is the most important vote for the entire generation, as it'll define every single vote going forward, it's absurd that there's no policing or requirements

case in point ABSTAIN, i havent played the meta, but i could still vote.

 

[Disaster Area]

Sunny has not had the chance to play in the new frontiers tournament, but he does have some experience in the tier.

Anyway, it seems that people aren't mature enough to handle only voting if they have some experience in the tier. I was given evidence in private on discord of someone getting a few of their friends to come and just leave a vote in favour of their friend's position. Because of that I'm going to restrict the vote to just people who signed up to play New Frontiers at some point.

This means that these people's voted are now discounted:
ThriceElite, Ch01W0n5h1n, ThrashNinjax, Khaytra, Real FV13, Mister Tim, Mindnight, Hack

So that means these votes are still counted:
Me (Ban), Mysterious M (No Ban), melle2402 (No Ban), Eseque (No Ban), Enigami (Ban), Ortheore (Ban), DMA (No Ban), Eden's Embrace (Ban), drud (No Ban), PhilosopherKing (Ban), Cowboy Dan (Ban)

The totals so far then are:
6 - Ban
5 - No Ban

 

[melle2402]

Lmfao your a fucking joke.
Whats the difference between the tier so far and adv ubers? You dont let the vote of the ubers tier leader count who has more experience than anyone else.
Your just a fucking joke who's desperated because he doesnt get what he want.
Continue destroying this forum you little fuck

 

[Mister Tim]

fuck you da, im adv expert+hack,fv13 and ch01 are more competent than you

 

[Cowboy Dan]

I really don't understand what you guys were expecting to happen. New frontiers participants is literally the most obvious and straightforward way to restrict votes for this. I personally don't think he should have included people who didn't actually play a game in new frontiers which if I'm not mistaken would result in the opposite outcome of my vote but come on are you really insulting DA for making an incredibly obvious choice in an attempt to respond to your demands? That's absolutely ridiculous. You can disagree all you want but god damn this is just pokemon. Try to be civil.

 

[Mysterious M]

I really don't understand what you guys were expecting to happen. New frontiers participants is literally the most obvious and straightforward way to restrict votes for this. I personally don't think he should have included people who didn't actually play a game in new frontiers which if I'm not mistaken would result in the opposite outcome of my vote but come on are you really insulting DA for making an incredibly obvious choice in an attempt to respond to your demands? That's absolutely ridiculous. You can disagree all you want but god damn this is just pokemon. Try to be civil.

Getting part in New Frontiers need a simple "join". That does not give you experience in the tier because you play 3 games a week. Since the meta is the same with Smogon, not counting some votes is a really bad decision...

 

[Disaster Area]

I was presented with logs of someone calling in people to vote in a certain way. It included phrases such as

Can everyone here vote no ban please

So everyone pls vote no ban

This is wholly inappropriate, and not that far from

Otherwise i can make 10 fake accounts and vote no ban lol

So I had a few options.
- Just remove the "phoned in" votes
- Restrict to just new frontiers players
- Restrict to new frontier players who have played a game
- Cancel the vote and come up with some requirements in terms of games played in New Frontiers or ladder (which Deadboots suggested over Discord)
- Some other standard such as paragraphs

I think they all have their pros and cons, and feel free to be critical if you think I chose wrongly, but I went with the simplest objective one that shows some interest in the tiering process. It isn't perfect, but I hope you can understand why I went with this, and, yes, as Dan said, be civil.

 

[Cowboy Dan]

Getting part in New Frontiers need a simple "join". That does not give you experience in the tier because you play 3 games a week. Since the meta is the same with Smogon, not counting some votes is a really bad decision...

Obvious doesn't necessarily mean optimal but trying to claim that DA was attempting to manipulate the votes and then going on to make an incredibly offensive post about it is really out of line. I like deadboots' idea quite a bit as it forces people to show that not only are they competent in the tier but also that they care about the outcome which is just as important imo as it seems pretty clear to me that a lot of the ubers players commenting don't really understand the context that we're not banning kyogre from ubers, it's the first pokemon we're banning from ou. Only issue is that it will take a while but it's not like we have a deadline for this. Might as well do it right.