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ADV Ubers Kyogre Suspect: Discussion
- Thread starter Disaster Area
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I think Kyogre is broken because it has a very limited pool of answers (latis, shedinja, in some cases blissey, and some gimmickier options, and some sets have a wider pool of checks), is incredibly threatening versus most Pokemon, has great bulk and a great defensive typing, and with a single bit of luck (crit/freeze) usually is enough to put it into a position to sweep. If you give it an inch it will take a mile. Fundamentally I think that it "feels" very broken and it satisfies roughly what I feel makes something broken. So that's why I think it's clearly banworthy.
Please dont ban Kyogre. Gen3 Ubers is a really balanced tier for more than a decade now. Kyogre is for sure one of the best special attackers, has a really good coverage and can run multiple sets. But that doesnt make it broken.
It has enough checks with the Latis, Blisseys, Regice (soft check), Shedinja,
Also with banning Kyogre you ban Drizzle. So Groudon gets an (an even more) overcentralizing role in the metagame. Rain teams will be dead and sun is spammed.
So Disaster Area stop this fucking stupid suspect, jesus christ
It has enough checks with the Latis, Blisseys, Regice (soft check), Shedinja,
Also with banning Kyogre you ban Drizzle. So Groudon gets an (an even more) overcentralizing role in the metagame. Rain teams will be dead and sun is spammed.
So Disaster Area stop this fucking stupid suspect, jesus christ
It doesn't feel that balanced to me, it feels to me there's a bunch of Pokemon that are ludicrously overpowered that are incredibly punishing if you misplay around them at all. It feels about as balanced as RBY 1P to me.
The consequences of the ban on the remaining metagame don't matter in the decision, what matters is whether or not Kyogre is broken.
The consequences of the ban on the remaining metagame don't matter in the decision, what matters is whether or not Kyogre is broken.
I mean I could make the same argument in favour of not banning RBY Mewtwo:
It is indeed one of the best special attackers, it has really good coverage (although actually it always misses something based on its coverage), and can run multiple sets.
But it has plenty of checks. Besides your own Mewtwo, there is also Light Screen Chansey (for psychic-less variants), there's Slowbro (for Tbolt-less variants), there's Exeggutor (which can explode), there's Snorlax (which can also explode), and there's also means to lure it (asd assasin variant of Mewtwo) and you can run Mewtwo variants that are worse versus other Pokemon but beat other Mewtwo variants, etc.
I don't think ADV 1B is that much more balanced than RBY 1P.
And it's probably even easier to argue against banning Mew...
It is indeed one of the best special attackers, it has really good coverage (although actually it always misses something based on its coverage), and can run multiple sets.
But it has plenty of checks. Besides your own Mewtwo, there is also Light Screen Chansey (for psychic-less variants), there's Slowbro (for Tbolt-less variants), there's Exeggutor (which can explode), there's Snorlax (which can also explode), and there's also means to lure it (asd assasin variant of Mewtwo) and you can run Mewtwo variants that are worse versus other Pokemon but beat other Mewtwo variants, etc.
I don't think ADV 1B is that much more balanced than RBY 1P.
And it's probably even easier to argue against banning Mew...
RBY M2 is probably the worst example you could come up with imo as it literally has zero good checks besides itself. The ones you listed become a liability as soon as the corresponding coverage is revealed, often after M2 has boosted its special sky high. Even in a best case scenario they can't hope to do more than PP stall. Egg is a terrible check that has nothing going for it besides boom, which M2 is capable of surviving. RBY M2 is on par with MRay.
Anyway, Ogre is busted as. CM 3 attacks can only barely be tanked by Latias, otherwise there are no good responses to that set, besides I guess random niche pokemon like Shedinja and idk, Ludicolo maybe? The latter one needs a fact check.
Its more defensive CM sets I think are actually manageable, but CM 3 attacks just steamrolls things every time it comes in
edit: I also don't see the point of having a separate thread for discussion, like half the time this occurs in the vote thread anyway
After a CM, Modest Kyogre can rip into Ludi with either Ice Beam or Thunder unless it's heavily HP/Sp.Def:
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 239-282 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 190-224 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even if you're just CroOgre, Ogre can just boost up in front of Ludi because Giga Drain, especially as Ogre's Sp. Def goes up, isn't exactly doing the utmost of damage, so it just forces Ogre into cycles of Resting and Sleep Talking:
Offensive Ludi: 252+ SpA Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 86-102 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bulky Ludi: 0 SpA Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 61-72 (15 - 17.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
And rain-boosted Surf will eventually get to the point of breaking even bulky Ludi down.
+6 252+ SpA Kyogre Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo in Rain: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
At best, Ludi just makes it burn Rests and Sleep Talks for a while. Maybe it can get unlucky with Talking Rests, but is that really a check at all then?
As far as Shed, it has a very large problem that it always has had: Spikes. Between Deo/Skarm/Forre, Spikes aren't exactly hard to get up, and good Spinners are not exactly plentiful. Also Sball spam to catch the Psychics means you can easily get shot down, and of course there's bulky stuff that can try and throw off Toxics. It's a neat trick, but if you're looking to make a Standard Tier out of this and that's your proposed check to it, people are just going to drop Toxics and Spikes all over. Because Shed is not at all hard to naturally make sure you win against.
Kyogre is just ridiculously busted. Its sheer strength, which is only boosted by the Rain it brings every time it comes out, its thick bulk—and both of those attributes are only increased by Calm Mind, which it can very easily make use of! Sure, Groudon naturally is going to pop up without its counterpart being around, but there's nothing saying that can't be banned too down the line. Tiering is a process, not a one-time shot. I haven't played PP's ORAS, but aren't both Primals banned because one without the other around is too much?
Like, I wish I had gotten in more games in ADV 1B, but like... This one is a super obvious call imo.
yea, pdon is busted in oras and when u take it away pogre becomes busted too (as do mmence geoxern and shadow tag [inc mega gar])
Sorry but what are these Ludicolo calcs lol
In Ubers the only set you run is spdef Leech Seed/Protect/Sub/Surf.
With Leftovers + Leech Seed and Rain Dish it has great recovery and can easily outstall a non rest kyogre
In Ubers the only set you run is spdef Leech Seed/Protect/Sub/Surf.
With Leftovers + Leech Seed and Rain Dish it has great recovery and can easily outstall a non rest kyogre
Melle is clearly right, the metagame rn is balanced and if you take off Kyogre (for a reason i still do not understantd), you set off a chain reaction of bans which is gonna give us a dead meta. So in my opinion there is no reason to go forward and ban the set. The metagame is in a really good place right now and thats the reason it hasnt changed since a lot of time. You can always experiment etc but i wouldn't suggest it.
agree with mm and melle. don't really see the point of this. every team has a lati not just because of the "centralization" of kyogre, but because of their amazing offensive presence. ubers is the most overpowered Pokémon and technically every pokemon is broken. see groudon, latis, deo-a, ho-oh. ogre has checks if you have a good team and a brain.
not every pokemon is broken. I think stuff like Ho-Oh and Lugia probably aren't broken but I feel like Kyogre / Soul Dew / Groudon / Mewtwo / Rayquaza are all broken (though not all at once, I think once you ban the first 3 the other 2 become broken). At that point my hunch is that there probably will be nothing else besides possibly some deo formes and possibly wobb that will be broken, at least at that point it seems far from obvious.
Just because something has answers doesn't mean that it's not broken imo. Kyogre still takes a mile if you give it an inch, and it can still beat its answers with a little bit of luck (e.g. a crit or a freeze) and it's quite bulky, making it fairly hard to control with revenge-killing etc. too.
I still feel like my initial reaction of "holy shit this is so strong" was the right one...
Just because something has answers doesn't mean that it's not broken imo. Kyogre still takes a mile if you give it an inch, and it can still beat its answers with a little bit of luck (e.g. a crit or a freeze) and it's quite bulky, making it fairly hard to control with revenge-killing etc. too.
I still feel like my initial reaction of "holy shit this is so strong" was the right one...
Theoretical chain reactions aren't a factor in bans and never have been. If you think Kyogre is balanced, how do you go about checking it?
Having a Lati doesn't negate Kyogre's impact, as Ice Beam 2HKOs Latios, while Latias is only barely hanging on. Also you need more than just Latias to argue it's not broken- what other checks are available? Lastly, although this uses the same ruleset for the time being, this isn't ubers, it's 1U, and saying that every pokemon is broken just doesn't add up, and it seems to me to be a bit of a cop-out. I mean, can you really argue Deo-S as broken?
If you're running Latias in this tier, you're running at a minimum 252 HP / 0 SpD; offensive sets are done better by Latios.
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 136-160 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Latios, on the other hand, easily outspeeds and 2hkos +1 Kyogre and lives +1 Ice Beam in return.
252+ SpA Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 215-254 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 234-276 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
T-Wave sets stand the best chance of beating Lati@s. However, they still need to force para onto Latios to threaten the 2hko on the switch, which ironically requires 2 free turns / correct predictions to pull off; it's unreliable because any good team (read: not passive as fuck with shitmons) will not let Kyogre in for free. Between spikes, status, and chip damage, it is very hard to come out on top over a Lati@s with a healthy Ogre, even in the best scenarios.
Firstly, at least 1 Lati@s is going to be on every single team, barring extremely specialized stalls (think Shed + Dug or SpD Ogre + Blissey); they're simply the best mons in the tier.
Secondly, here's a list of some more checks:
Blissey: forces Rest sets to sleep, only threatened by +1 Hydro Pump, good CM beats all Ogre
Kyogre itself: if you actually play this meta, you know Thunder is actually pretty ass coverage since all it hits is opposing Kyogre; Specially Defensive Roar sets and CM Roar Rest sets have no problem checking non-Thunder (read: most) Ogre
Ludicolo: +1 252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery is the most it can take; Thunder is suboptimal on CM anyway. Leech + Dish recovery can easily put it out of range of the 2hko
Shedinja: Hazard and weather control are fairly easy in this tier compared to most (lmao just run Claydol and you dont have to worry about spikes ever), meaning Shed is actually not trash. It walls every set
Quagsire: Uncommon Boltbeam resist that saw some usage in UPL (0kay used it, idr who else). Amnesia beats all Kyogre, resists rock, and also is damn near impossible to break using Rain balances like these (
Soft checks:
Groudon: 252+ SpA Kyogre Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon in Sun: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. can pivot in and set the stage for literally any special sponge to check Kyogre. doesn't fear twave or cm on the switch
Snorlax: Will always tank a +1 move and can trade with boom; hard check if sun is up
Regice: Same as Lax
offensive pressure: ogre rarely finds opportunities to set up against teams that exert pressure and damage it on the switch (especially backed by Lati@s support); additionally, there are many faster pokemon that can pick off a weakened Ogre (cb deo-a, cb aerodactyl, cb lugia, mewtwo, cb dugtrio, cb rayquaza, cb heracross, etc etc)
Do you even strawman breh ?_?
Lati@s have even fewer safe switch-ins than Kyogre; I mean you're basically limited to bulky normals (Lax, Bliss), Regice, Ho-oh, and some mediocre steels (SpD Rachi doesn't even beat cm refresh lmao, cb lix is 2hko'd by ice beam, meat gross 2hkod by thunder), all of which can be beaten by odd sets, certain coverage, or hax.
Groudon is actually just a better Ogre, barring ability and typing. It lives Ice Beam from Latios from full, and unlike Ogre, can actually ohko back after 1 turn of setup (+2 hp ghost). Additionally, its best check (skarmory) is trappable. It abuses para better than ogre too, with rock slide or subsalac. Most teams are actually weaker to Groudon on paper than any other threat.
Deoxys-A has no safe switchins. It can always be running unexpected coverage or items to breaks past any would-be checks and outspeeds the entire metagame. Much harder to check than Ogre.
Anyway, I'd recommend actually playing & understanding the metagame (with real teams and critical thought) before discussing potential changes next time.
Well, that was a good and thorough post, at least.
Last time we had a suspect pretty much as we started and everyone agreed we should hold it off for a couple of months so people can know more. The idea was that now after 2 months people would know more.
And now we're getting criticised again for not knowing stuff... it seems like there is a large gap between the amount of knowledge in experienced players' heads, and what's actually written down on the forums.
All of us involved in this process would like to know the tier better so that we can make better judgments in these suspect tests. But we're going to keep making pretty basic mistakes if there isn't enough basic information to be found in the first place.
Last time we had a suspect pretty much as we started and everyone agreed we should hold it off for a couple of months so people can know more. The idea was that now after 2 months people would know more.
And now we're getting criticised again for not knowing stuff... it seems like there is a large gap between the amount of knowledge in experienced players' heads, and what's actually written down on the forums.
All of us involved in this process would like to know the tier better so that we can make better judgments in these suspect tests. But we're going to keep making pretty basic mistakes if there isn't enough basic information to be found in the first place.
This lays out a reasonable case as to why I may have underestimated the Latis. However, much of the other stuff I don't think is reasonable. A number of the highly ranked pokemon in the tier concede free turns to Ogre, such as Skarmory and Forretress, unless you seriously consider risking them getting KO'd a reasonable measure to stop Ogre from doing its thing. As for the other checks you listed, two of them I simply don't consider adequate- Bliss, since it gets overwhelmed by HPump and Kyogre, since a pokemon checking itself is not valid grounds to argue that it's balanced. Beyond those, there simply aren't a lot of options that aren't either shaky or somewhat niche. Ludicolo is a legit check, but Shedinja is extremely limited and I'm honestly unsure what Quagsire aims to achieve beyond stalling. Also Quag and Clay aren't currently ranked in either our VR or smogon's (I think they're the same atm) which indicates they're not super great, though their omission from the rankings probably indicates that the rankings need to be changed tbh, since I can easily see why Clay would be viable, while checking Ogre's a notable enough niche to at least mention QuagIf you're running Latias in this tier, you're running at a minimum 252 HP / 0 SpD; offensive sets are done better by Latios.
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 136-160 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Latios, on the other hand, easily outspeeds and 2hkos +1 Kyogre and lives +1 Ice Beam in return.
252+ SpA Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 215-254 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 234-276 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
T-Wave sets stand the best chance of beating Lati@s. However, they still need to force para onto Latios to threaten the 2hko on the switch, which ironically requires 2 free turns / correct predictions to pull off; it's unreliable because any good team (read: not passive as fuck with shitmons) will not let Kyogre in for free. Between spikes, status, and chip damage, it is very hard to come out on top over a Lati@s with a healthy Ogre, even in the best scenarios.
Firstly, at least 1 Lati@s is going to be on every single team, barring extremely specialized stalls (think Shed + Dug or SpD Ogre + Blissey); they're simply the best mons in the tier.
Secondly, here's a list of some more checks:
Blissey: forces Rest sets to sleep, only threatened by +1 Hydro Pump, good CM beats all Ogre
Kyogre itself: if you actually play this meta, you know Thunder is actually pretty ass coverage since all it hits is opposing Kyogre; Specially Defensive Roar sets and CM Roar Rest sets have no problem checking non-Thunder (read: most) Ogre
Ludicolo: +1 252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery is the most it can take; Thunder is suboptimal on CM anyway. Leech + Dish recovery can easily put it out of range of the 2hko
Shedinja: Hazard and weather control are fairly easy in this tier compared to most (lmao just run Claydol and you dont have to worry about spikes ever), meaning Shed is actually not trash. It walls every set
Quagsire: Uncommon Boltbeam resist that saw some usage in UPL (0kay used it, idr who else). Amnesia beats all Kyogre, resists rock, and also is damn near impossible to break using Rain balances like these ()
Soft checks:
Groudon: 252+ SpA Kyogre Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon in Sun: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. can pivot in and set the stage for literally any special sponge to check Kyogre. doesn't fear twave or cm on the switch
Snorlax: Will always tank a +1 move and can trade with boom; hard check if sun is up
Regice: Same as Lax
offensive pressure: ogre rarely finds opportunities to set up against teams that exert pressure and damage it on the switch (especially backed by Lati@s support); additionally, there are many faster pokemon that can pick off a weakened Ogre (cb deo-a, cb aerodactyl, cb lugia, mewtwo, cb dugtrio, cb rayquaza, cb heracross, etc etc)
His claim was that "everything is broken". I provided an example that demonstrates that not everything is broken. Can you explain how that constitutes a strawman?
You say this like I'm not currently playing the tier and applying critical thought in order to further my understanding of the tier. Instead I'd recommend not trolling and instead treating people with a bit of respect. If you can't do that, go elsewhere.
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