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RBY M2 is probably the worst example you could come up with imo as it literally has zero good checks besides itself. The ones you listed become a liability as soon as the corresponding coverage is revealed, often after M2 has boosted its special sky high. Even in a best case scenario they can't hope to do more than PP stall. Egg is a terrible check that has nothing going for it besides boom, which M2 is capable of surviving. RBY M2 is on par with MRay.I mean I could make the same argument in favour of not banning RBY Mewtwo:
It is indeed one of the best special attackers, it has really good coverage (although actually it always misses something based on its coverage), and can run multiple sets.
But it has plenty of checks. Besides your own Mewtwo, there is also Light Screen Chansey (for psychic-less variants), there's Slowbro (for Tbolt-less variants), there's Exeggutor (which can explode), there's Snorlax (which can also explode), and there's also means to lure it (asd assasin variant of Mewtwo) and you can run Mewtwo variants that are worse versus other Pokemon but beat other Mewtwo variants, etc.
I don't think ADV 1B is that much more balanced than RBY 1P.
And it's probably even easier to argue against banning Mew...
After a CM, Modest Kyogre can rip into Ludi with either Ice Beam or Thunder unless it's heavily HP/Sp.Def:and idk, Ludicolo maybe? The latter one needs a fact check.
Theoretical chain reactions aren't a factor in bans and never have been. If you think Kyogre is balanced, how do you go about checking it?Melle is clearly right, the metagame rn is balanced and if you take off Kyogre (for a reason i still do not understantd), you set off a chain reaction of bans which is gonna give us a dead meta. So in my opinion there is no reason to go forward and ban the set. The metagame is in a really good place right now and thats the reason it hasnt changed since a lot of time. You can always experiment etc but i wouldn't suggest it.
Having a Lati doesn't negate Kyogre's impact, as Ice Beam 2HKOs Latios, while Latias is only barely hanging on. Also you need more than just Latias to argue it's not broken- what other checks are available? Lastly, although this uses the same ruleset for the time being, this isn't ubers, it's 1U, and saying that every pokemon is broken just doesn't add up, and it seems to me to be a bit of a cop-out. I mean, can you really argue Deo-S as broken?agree with mm and melle. don't really see the point of this. every team has a lati not just because of the "centralization" of kyogre, but because of their amazing offensive presence. ubers is the most overpowered Pokémon and technically every pokemon is broken. see groudon, latis, deo-a, ho-oh. ogre has checks if you have a good team and a brain.
If you're running Latias in this tier, you're running at a minimum 252 HP / 0 SpD; offensive sets are done better by Latios.Having a Lati doesn't negate Kyogre's impact, as Ice Beam 2HKOs Latios, while Latias is only barely hanging on.
Firstly, at least 1 Lati@s is going to be on every single team, barring extremely specialized stalls (think Shed + Dug or SpD Ogre + Blissey); they're simply the best mons in the tier.Also you need more than just Latias to argue it's not broken- what other checks are available?
Do you even strawman breh ?_?saying that every pokemon is broken just doesn't add up, and it seems to me to be a bit of a cop-out. I mean, can you really argue Deo-S as broken?
This lays out a reasonable case as to why I may have underestimated the Latis. However, much of the other stuff I don't think is reasonable. A number of the highly ranked pokemon in the tier concede free turns to Ogre, such as Skarmory and Forretress, unless you seriously consider risking them getting KO'd a reasonable measure to stop Ogre from doing its thing. As for the other checks you listed, two of them I simply don't consider adequate- Bliss, since it gets overwhelmed by HPump and Kyogre, since a pokemon checking itself is not valid grounds to argue that it's balanced. Beyond those, there simply aren't a lot of options that aren't either shaky or somewhat niche. Ludicolo is a legit check, but Shedinja is extremely limited and I'm honestly unsure what Quagsire aims to achieve beyond stalling. Also Quag and Clay aren't currently ranked in either our VR or smogon's (I think they're the same atm) which indicates they're not super great, though their omission from the rankings probably indicates that the rankings need to be changed tbh, since I can easily see why Clay would be viable, while checking Ogre's a notable enough niche to at least mention QuagIf you're running Latias in this tier, you're running at a minimum 252 HP / 0 SpD; offensive sets are done better by Latios.
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 136-160 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Latios, on the other hand, easily outspeeds and 2hkos +1 Kyogre and lives +1 Ice Beam in return.
252+ SpA Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 215-254 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 234-276 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
T-Wave sets stand the best chance of beating Lati@s. However, they still need to force para onto Latios to threaten the 2hko on the switch, which ironically requires 2 free turns / correct predictions to pull off; it's unreliable because any good team (read: not passive as fuck with shitmons) will not let Kyogre in for free. Between spikes, status, and chip damage, it is very hard to come out on top over a Lati@s with a healthy Ogre, even in the best scenarios.
Firstly, at least 1 Lati@s is going to be on every single team, barring extremely specialized stalls (think Shed + Dug or SpD Ogre + Blissey); they're simply the best mons in the tier.
Secondly, here's a list of some more checks:
Blissey: forces Rest sets to sleep, only threatened by +1 Hydro Pump, good CM beats all Ogre
Kyogre itself: if you actually play this meta, you know Thunder is actually pretty ass coverage since all it hits is opposing Kyogre; Specially Defensive Roar sets and CM Roar Rest sets have no problem checking non-Thunder (read: most) Ogre
Ludicolo: +1 252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery is the most it can take; Thunder is suboptimal on CM anyway. Leech + Dish recovery can easily put it out of range of the 2hko
Shedinja: Hazard and weather control are fairly easy in this tier compared to most (lmao just run Claydol and you dont have to worry about spikes ever), meaning Shed is actually not trash. It walls every set
Quagsire: Uncommon Boltbeam resist that saw some usage in UPL (0kay used it, idr who else). Amnesia beats all Kyogre, resists rock, and also is damn near impossible to break using Rain balances like these (![]()
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Soft checks:
Groudon: 252+ SpA Kyogre Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon in Sun: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. can pivot in and set the stage for literally any special sponge to check Kyogre. doesn't fear twave or cm on the switch
Snorlax: Will always tank a +1 move and can trade with boom; hard check if sun is up
Regice: Same as Lax
offensive pressure: ogre rarely finds opportunities to set up against teams that exert pressure and damage it on the switch (especially backed by Lati@s support); additionally, there are many faster pokemon that can pick off a weakened Ogre (cb deo-a, cb aerodactyl, cb lugia, mewtwo, cb dugtrio, cb rayquaza, cb heracross, etc etc)
His claim was that "everything is broken". I provided an example that demonstrates that not everything is broken. Can you explain how that constitutes a strawman?Do you even strawman breh ?_?
You say this like I'm not currently playing the tier and applying critical thought in order to further my understanding of the tier. Instead I'd recommend not trolling and instead treating people with a bit of respect. If you can't do that, go elsewhere.Anyway, I'd recommend actually playing & understanding the metagame (with real teams and critical thought) before discussing potential changes next time.