DPP Is Stealth Rock banworthy in DPP 1U?

[Disaster Area]

Banning

A ban is merited where a pokemon/move/item/etc. has a significant negative impact upon a metagame and the subsequent play experience. This is the sole criterion for a ban being implemented, and encompasses various issues such as those relating to balance and undermining the importance of skill, while also focussing on its role in the metagame as a whole, which includes any effects on diversity.

From this thread.

So the question is, do you think that Stealth Rock is sufficiently broken, and that removing it increases diversity enough, that it ought to be banned? I recommend testing the metagame out in the new frontiers tournament, to inform your opinion on this.

 

[Nails]

no, rocksless dpp turns into a stallfest. i promise that subroost moltres that burns 8 stone edge pp to break its subs is not fun to play against. offense and balance needs rocks to function.

 

[The Notorious B.I.G.]

Agree with nails

Also, generally Tspikes would be helpful versus stall however they generally have Starmie + Hard Rotom Counter or even just a poison type.

Also, without rocks, nape literally ravages most teams


Meta would be be so saturated with stall and nape it would ruin everything

 

[Nails]

to add onto that point, every flying type gets access to roost as compensation for taking sr damage. having access to recovery is a really significant thing. flying types without rocks around are very strong.

 

[Enigami]

Non-DPP player here. I'm curious, what makes Moltres without SR a problem in DPP? Moltres is capable of the exact same set in ADV but with Morning Sun in Roost's place (does the extra 8 recovery PP cause the problem?), and I haven't heard of it being broken there.

Would things like Rock Blast/Taunt/Encore not be enough to deal with it?

 

[Nails]

sand is everywhere in adv, sub morning sun moltres would be really really nice if ttar had any other ability. rock slide also has more pp (16 vs 8) so the only thing you're pp stalling with pressure is pert hydro pump. i actually had a discussion less than an hour ago about what adv moltres would be like with a tar ban and it sounds p cool on paper.

rock blast doesn't exist in dpp ou, taunt users all get fried by fire stab (except gyarados who instead gets owned by wisp), encore doesn't exist in dpp and none of the users can switch into moltres anyways. technically you can't touch heatran but unless it has hp electric/roar the only thing it can do is throw fire blasts at your subs (you only get 4 thanks to pressure) and toxic/explode/earth power on your roost. if he has taunt i guess he wins off pp though. hp ground would be enough to get around that anyways.

dpp becomes way less fun without rocks, basically. it's been tried before and it's an ok novelty but it's not that good.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

The only pro of no rocks is that it means Gyara / Nite / Zap / Bat are better checks to the semi-broken Nape and Loom because they're not losing 25% of their health upon switch-in.

Also, without rocks, nape literally ravages most teams

Not really - Ape doesn't take oh so much from Rocks to set it back (and Spikes / TSpikes still exist to screw with him), while again it makes Flyers much shakier checks to him (without rocks offensive variants can usually switch in ok, but with rocks they need to be fairly jacked in bulk - keep in mind that flyers are fairly common despite rocks!).

This is another problem of mine though - without rocks it becomes harder to keep down certain things. For example Gyarados is fairly bulky but a lot of the time he gets only one chance to sweep because Rocks chipped off a quarter of his health. With no rocks? Suddenly he can come in on certain mons that can't touch him (like Choiced Flygon locked into EQ), scout the counter, and double out for free. Dragonite's Mixed set no longer needs Roost as much because it isn't taking that guaranteed 25% from stealth rock, making it a lot more deadly with ESpeed. Zapdos can dance in and out with U-Turn, constantly bringing in Breloom on the TTar / Swampert / Hippo trying to check it. Hell even Crobat becomes a lot more dangerous, its bulky enough to live a few things, Roost back up and start threatening with Super Fang. I think the problem with Stealth Rock is similar to some other badly planned interventions across history: it solves the problem of fighters being jackasses (as well as U-Turn forcing switches and wearing down things - keep in mind all you BAN-screamers that this applies to the Turners and actually affects them a lot more), but at the same time makes a few other things (see above) borderline impossible to handle. I'd be willing to try it out just to see but to actually use it for the main tier? Probably not.

As for bans, just get rid of Nape and I'll be fine . Iron Head Jirachi is pretty gay (it can take back lost games in a heartbeat of off just flinch hax), but I don't want to get rid of the mon itself.....

 

[Disaster Area]

Just curious, how much do people think hail would improve, would articuno and regice improve, would yanmega and vespiquen improve? Would Glaceon be viable (I think I heard about good people using it before)?

Also, if there's few signups / large backlash (i.e. what we have now not getting more positive for SR) then I'll cancel the test and we'll just do a latias suspect.

 

[autumn leaves]

stealth rock is so ridiculously overpowered that it is required on literally every team. it gets more usage than gsc snorlax for christs sake. it makes already insanely strong pokemon even harder to deal with. i could take it or leave it but id prefer a ban

 

[magic9mushroom]

stealth rock is so ridiculously overpowered that it is required on literally every team. it gets more usage than gsc snorlax for christs sake. it makes already insanely strong pokemon even harder to deal with. i could take it or leave it but id prefer a ban

You're comparing apples and oranges in comparing a move to a Pokemon (though even there I'll note that non-Snorlax teams in GSC are largely fun teams; if you look at ranked stats that 95% goes to 98%+). If you want to compare it to something in GSC, compare it to Spikes or RestTalk (essentially all teams run a RestTalker and general wisdom is that all good teams run Spikes - full Baton Pass is an exception to both but is very rare).

 

[Disaster Area]

I think, point is that GSC Lax and DPP SR are verry near 100% usage in both cases. Obviously you can't really compare Stealth Rock with much else which is why it's so hard to agree on whether it ought to be banned or not. I thought it was worth discussing it in DPP since 1 I had seen other players of the tier bring it up 2 it is incredibly powerful lacking counterplay 3 I thought that removing it might increase tier diversity (or might not, I don't know). Within our philosophy towards banning things, SR is pretty borderline and player opinion is all that it comes down to, i.e. their judgement on whether it increases diversity sufficiently / is too brokenly strong. There's a good case for both sides so it's worth testing it imo, unless one side in this thread gets clear backlash (there's been a fair bit, but BKC [autumn leaves], a really top DPP player has more or less come out for it so for now I think it's worth keeping this open and continuing with new frontiers.

 

[ThrashNinjax]

stealth rock is so ridiculously overpowered that it is required on literally every team. it gets more usage than gsc snorlax for christs sake. it makes already insanely strong pokemon even harder to deal with. i could take it or leave it but id prefer a ban

You can't really compare a move to a single pokemon, SR gets really nice distribution and there's no reason not to use a move that gets chip damage on everything that switches in. Snorlax is meanwhile a single pokemon that despite its centralising aspects has remained fair to use in the tier, meaning that it's not broken (maybe it is, I don't play much GSC), or at least that people can tolerate it. SR is nowhere near as centralising as Lax, it's a single moveslot that can help support a sweeper or wear down a dangerous threat.

Okay, the absence of SR makes Loom and Nape a lot easier to deal with now that their checks don't have to lose a quarter of their health just for switching in only to watch them dance out for free. Great! The problem is that, as said earlier, it makes all of Zap+Gyara+Nite borderline impossible to deal with as now they are in the position of come in for free, put a huge dent in check, and dance out to something that handles it. Even with the Smogon metagame (SR legal) in use, user badabing, who's pretty highly regarded when it comes to DPP, said of Gyarados that 'I can't think of anything else that has as much of a chance to put a hole in or outright win any game' - do we really want to be making this monster more powerful? What about Zapdos, who comfortably U-Turns (or BPs) out of all its checks into Breloom who proceeds to abuse them? (I personally think Loom wouldn't be oh so troubled by SR gone as it can still get free entry from a newly empowered Zap and Sleep whatever comes in next, before setting up all over it). I don't think so. SR makes Nape and Loom really hard to deal with (ironically the loss of this chip damage on Nape which can be crucial if you're trying to stall it out and Loom's partners becoming overpowered af would mean that despite being individually less gamebreaking both fighters would still be just as threatening overall), but equally it keeps a lot of tough things (as well as mindless U-Turn spam) in check and I really don't think it should be cast aside.

In regards to the other proposal on the table (#FreeLatias), blatant no (as for the other Dragon, I can think of no better way to break the tier that banning SR and freeing Mence). I feel like the problem with Latias is that it would undisputedly be the top dog (top notch coverage, killer speed tier and solid offensive stats make it a threat, while simultaneously it hard checks Fighters / Grasses / Zapdos / Specially Offensive Waters and more, and of course it gives everyone another reason to run Heatran / Tyranitar / Jirachi, as if they needed one). I think we're all ignoring the possibility that Latias dropping (similarly to banning SR) could replace all our current problems with even worse ones, and I think that our current problems are fine (Loom is borderline manageable, Nape isn't but that's why we ban it, as well as Iron Head on Jirachi to keep it from breaking games, everything else is balanced atm). I feel like we should just get rid of what we know is broken rather than trying to dramatically shake up the tier because we want to see a certain mon (that was banned 6 years ago) back. Just my two cents worth.

Tldr: Keep SR, it checks two things for each thing it makes slightly harder to deal with.
When people offer you the chance to use a Latias, just say no.
Ban Infernape and IHead Jirachi.

 

[Disaster Area]

Well I know that BKC and Jirachee have been testing Latias and talking about that.

on the other, there are very valid points and annoyances I feel myself. half the reason breloom is so fucking common and feels so necessary on a lot of offensive teams is because it is one of the most reliable things at fucking with stall; mixnite, the "mence replacement" (and I hate to talk badly of it because I do think it's amazing) can't break sdef hippo unless it runs outrage and it lacks the speed to use that effectively. you pair that with the tar/aero resist factor, and how it gives longevity to an offensive team that'd otherwise get uncomfortably chipped at by blissey/clefable, and how mach checks everything, and how its counters are weak to super common/abusable shit... well long story short is that it has a ton of really important traits that make it very hard to not use. latias coming down would certainly help in both containing this monster and giving us more potential ways to screw with guys whose modus operandi is "switch between counters and heal when necessary." plus, zapdos is kind of ridiculous for a lot of teams, and it has broken ass uturn to make matters worse. I'm not saying zap is broken or anything but having more options to deal with it would be grand, and I do not believe latias is at all broken. I played tons of latias games, just for fun and to test for the tour and for the tour, and I really think it fits right at home, in both keeping big guys in check (and not at all unfairly, they have the tools to screw with it) and giving us a source of power (again, not unfairly... at least imo anyway). its stats/typing might seem overwhelming at a glance but in practice it fit in just fine. after a while rachee and I weren't even using lati every time because it didn't fit that well into whatever team we were trying to use. plus discouraging stupid ass bulky starmie usage is awesome. mence is... too much, I think.

...

tldr: free my girl latias, but even if she isn't freed, don't try to reinvent an old metagame each week, make your teams in a no-pressure environment rather than worrying about your opponent likes to bring and trying to counterteam him; you'll see dpp is very kind to smart creativity. emphasis on the smart. you aren't going to be sweeping people with rp torterra or other stupid shit. however the next machloom is right around the corner. oh and free froslass and enslave bp goddamn.

edit: oh and fuck haxrachi too, christ almighty. talk about another pokemon that becomes stupid as fuck with sr/sand in the picture.

several things make dpp what is now, something extremely painful to both play and build in mainly because the originality in this tier is close to zero. breloom is a (BAN ME PLEASE) and is starting to centralize the tier a bit too much in my opinion. infernape is literally impossible to handle. breloom is so popular and i hate facing it so much that i became a scarftar hater because i dont wanna give it the slightest chance to set up. because of that, there are threats really hard to handle like suicune or zapdos. it became so easy to just pair up any special sweepers with breloom that's crazy. how many times have we seen the "zapdos-jirachi-breloom-heatran-starmie-flygon" team in tournaments like spl/classic/st. way too many times in my opinion. but i cant blame anyone really, this is the same as using spikes-gengar in adv, it's so easy to use and having breloom on your team gives u the feeling that nothing can happen to you if u find a way to set up. taking the momentum with breloom is so easy unless u give it literally 0 chance to make a move.

...

to end this finchinatoresque post, i am one hundred percent in favor of a tias-mence suspect/unban (kind of hard to suspect something when the ladder is dead) though im sure this will never happen and im not sure why. both are undoubtedly very powerful and can be considered """broken""" but i am positive that the way people would build to handle them both today is radically different than it was in 2010. i really dont think they are unhealthy for the metagame, quite the opposite actually. i also truly believe that their speeds and typing would be a very good thing for the metagame to make some stuff less threatening. it always saddened me how slow dragonite was because even tho its resistances are really good u usually get hit twice before attacking so even if the said move is "not very effective" it actually is quite effective when it does 70% (hello sr + sand/lo). salamence being faster than timid cune is a benediction lol. the current metagame really lacks of a good ddancer imo, setting up with gyara/nite/tar became really hard because of their speeds and they are rather weak at +0 so they end up being dead weight most of the time which isnt the case with mence (nite has the same attack but like i said above it's too slow so not a chance u're sweeping with a +0 dnite lol. people also run lum berry on ddnite. LO on ddmence. big diff). as for latias, it's quite obvious having her on your team would make it less weak to special sweepers and that's something to take into account. it became really hard nowadays to handle stuff like zapper-cm cune or even shaymin (thank god no one uses it because it sure is really scary). i agree cm/specs tias is scary but i think the metagame being much more offensive as it used to be in the dp era i think it's manageable. kind of hard to theorymon anyway.

just my 2 cents about this tier that i used to love and kind of despise at the moment because of the lack of originality and i really feel like we are going around in circles and it might be time for some change.

#shakingdra4president

Thread for those not aware: Gen 4 - Smogon Premier League: DPP OU Discussion | Smogon Forums

 

[Enigami]

Actually, much better idea than Iron Head + Jirachi: suspect Flinch Move + Serene Grace instead.

That way you eliminate flinch spam entirely and make it clear it's that specific mechanic abuse that'd be banned instead of a complex ban to nerf a specific Pokemon to keep them in the tier (because in that case why not just ban Jirachi, or moves on other Ubers until they're balanced in OU?). It'd also remove any chance of Zen Headbutt Jirachi taking Iron Head Jirachi's place.

Shaymin-Sky would be forced to run HP Flying or Air Cutter if it applied to Ubers, and Togekiss would probably switch to Hustle to keep Air Slash, but would anyone be unhappy with that development?

 

[autumn leaves]

You can't really compare a move to a single pokemon, SR gets really nice distribution and there's no reason not to use a move that gets chip damage on everything that switches in. Snorlax is meanwhile a single pokemon that despite its centralising aspects has remained fair to use in the tier, meaning that it's not broken (maybe it is, I don't play much GSC), or at least that people can tolerate it. SR is nowhere near as centralising as Lax, it's a single moveslot that can help support a sweeper or wear down a dangerous threat.

remaining in the tier does not make something not broken.

sr has more impact on every tier it's in than snorlax does gsc lol are you for real??!?!?!?!

Okay, the absence of SR makes Loom and Nape a lot easier to deal with now that their checks don't have to lose a quarter of their health just for switching in only to watch them dance out for free. Great! The problem is that, as said earlier, it makes all of Zap+Gyara+Nite borderline impossible to deal with as now they are in the position of come in for free, put a huge dent in check, and dance out to something that handles it. Even with the Smogon metagame (SR legal) in use, user badabing, who's pretty highly regarded when it comes to DPP, said of Gyarados that 'I can't think of anything else that has as much of a chance to put a hole in or outright win any game' - do we really want to be making this monster more powerful? What about Zapdos, who comfortably U-Turns (or BPs) out of all its checks into Breloom who proceeds to abuse them? (I personally think Loom wouldn't be oh so troubled by SR gone as it can still get free entry from a newly empowered Zap and Sleep whatever comes in next, before setting up all over it). I don't think so. SR makes Nape and Loom really hard to deal with (ironically the loss of this chip damage on Nape which can be crucial if you're trying to stall it out and Loom's partners becoming overpowered af would mean that despite being individually less gamebreaking both fighters would still be just as threatening overall), but equally it keeps a lot of tough things (as well as mindless U-Turn spam) in check and I really don't think it should be cast aside.

there's also no rocks digging into the counters of these supposedly horridly overpowered flyers.

u-turn spam is a LOT less threatening without rocks digging into the pokemon switching around and eating the hit before being forced back out. if zap gon ape zor jira want to dink away with those weak hits then that's fine, I'll switch around on those all day.

In regards to the other proposal on the table (#FreeLatias), blatant no (as for the other Dragon, I can think of no better way to break the tier that banning SR and freeing Mence). I feel like the problem with Latias is that it would undisputedly be the top dog (top notch coverage, killer speed tier and solid offensive stats make it a threat, while simultaneously it hard checks Fighters / Grasses / Zapdos / Specially Offensive Waters and more, and of course it gives everyone another reason to run Heatran / Tyranitar / Jirachi, as if they needed one). I think we're all ignoring the possibility that Latias dropping (similarly to banning SR) could replace all our current problems with even worse ones, and I think that our current problems are fine (Loom is borderline manageable, Nape isn't but that's why we ban it, as well as Iron Head on Jirachi to keep it from breaking games, everything else is balanced atm). I feel like we should just get rid of what we know is broken rather than trying to dramatically shake up the tier because we want to see a certain mon (that was banned 6 years ago) back. Just my two cents worth.

latias dp tour was lovely, it wasn't op at all, great metagame presence. at least imo. mence is busted though ye

I personally don't think iron head jirachi would be broken without sr

 

[Disaster Area]

So far the new frontiers tournament has received a paltry three signups. I think unless there's a surprise amount of signups tomorrow, it might be best to just leave up the discussion thread for a couple of weeks, expect players to play test games versus eachother, and then hold a vote in a couple of weeks. Any objections? Tagging everyone who's posted in either this thread or the signup thread. slurmz~ jacob. ThrashNinjax Nails autumn leaves Enigami magic9mushroom

 

[magic9mushroom]

I don't play DPP, so I neither object nor support and would abstain from any vote. I just posted because I didn't think comparing an entry hazard with a Pokemon made sense, and because I have played the generation being used in the comparison.

 

[Nails]

i don't care about dpp formats outside of smogon tiers and will not be playtesting a sr ban metagame.

 

[Earthworm]

The way that the ban criteria is worded makes it really subjective and hard to judge in this case. All banning SR would do is change the metagame drastically. What effect that would have on diversity is totally unpredictable. A lot of the top players are pretty tired of the current metagame so it seems appealing.

I don't think it is reasonable to make assertions that certain Pokemon would be "too strong" in a SR-less metagame. Far too much would change to make that kind of analysis. Of course you can reasonably say that Pokemon weak to Rock are going to get stronger, but it doesn't mean Moltres is suddenly going to be overpowered, just that it is going to be stronger. It would take an incredible amount of foresight to be able to identify the strongest strategies without first extensively playing the tier with such a core element removed. Even being successful initially (such as in a test environment or a tournament with different rules) doesn't mean much because people haven't had time to adapt to the strategies that you employ.

 

[Disaster Area]

The suspect meta is playable on Showdown! under the What If section. Spread the word, and play and test there!