GSC GSC Little Cup Discussion Thread

[MeepBard]

Welcome to the GSC LC 1U discussion thread! This meta only allows the use of level 5, first evolution Pokemon. You can use this thread to discuss your thoughts on the meta, and since it is brand new feel free to talk about experiments you have tried or plan on trying in the tier, and much more.

Notable Pokemon include:

Nidoran-M @ Berry Juice
Ability: Poison Point
Level: 5
IVs: 6 HP / 24 Atk / 28 Def
- Lovely Kiss
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard
- Hidden Power [Poison]

BoltBeam coverage, sleeping move, solid Speed tier and great Special Attack makes Nidoran-M a considerable addition to any team.

Abra @ Berry Juice
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 5
- Psychic
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Wave
- Thief

Abra has great Special Attack, and great coverage moves in Ice Punch and Thief. It's also able to cripple opposing sweepers with paralysis. Thief lets it potentially nab a Berry Juice off of opponents, once its own Berry Juice has been consumed.

Machop @ Berry Juice
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
- Cross Chop
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Machop's access to a STAB Cross Chop with a beefy 80 Attack and recovery in Berry Juice lets it be a total threat, where nothing wants to switch in, and nothing wants to stay in on a healthy Machop unless they have a type advantage.

Gastly @ Berry Juice
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
- Thunderbolt
- Giga Drain
- Thief
- Hypnosis

Gastly is the only Ghost-type in GSC LC, soldifying itself a niche as a spinblocker that poses an offensive threat. It's also a great lead.

Porygon @ Mint Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rest
- Thunder Wave

Porygon sports solid offenses, tremendous bulk and BoltBeam coverage, solidifying it as a great Pokemon in GSC LC. While it lacks Recover (as Recover isn't obtainable for Porygon at level 5), it's able to run a successful MintRest set. Would definitely use.

Pineco @ Miracle Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 28 Def
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Rapid Spin

The only user of Spikes, can explode, and threatens Gastly with Hidden Power Ghost.

Houndour @ Berry Juice
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Crunch
- Fire Blast

An absolutely dominating threat in the metagame, Houndour is something that should be on every team and every team should prepare for. Houndour can easily punch holes in many unprepared teams, and has access to Sunny Day + Solar Beam to beat Water-types.

Smoochum (F) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Oblivious
Level: 5
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Thief
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Smoochum is amazing. It's able to switch into Machop, take a Cross Chop, get back to full with Berry Juice, and Thief an item off of whatever comes in. It also sports a very solid Special Attack stat.

Elekid @ Berry Juice
Ability: Static
Level: 5
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Cross Chop
- Thief

Elekid's array of good coverage, great stats, and access to BoltBeam make it one of the premier choices for a special attacker in GSC LC.

Have fun discussing this meta! It's really a blast to play.

 

[MeepBard]

Alright, so before we can jump start this meta, we need to start discussing bans.

Seems a bit early for that, right, but there are a few things that the community might think needs a ban. I will list reasonings for banning them and let the community discuss why they should or shouldn't be banned - at the moment, GSC LC will be played without these bans in place until the majority comes to a conclusion, and we can start from there. The three things in particular are:

Scyther, Chansey and Gold Berry
​

Scyther: Scyther is able to pressure too many things with its stellar speed, access to Baton Pass, and amazing Attack. Nothing really wants to switch into Scyther, making it somewhat difficult to beat. Counters at the moment include Elekid, Houndour and Porygon, but none of them particularly want to switch in.

Chansey: Chansey is a wall, and it's sorta always been like that. Things struggle to break Chansey aside from physical attackers. One particular set uses Curse as a sweeper while also buffing Chansey's Defense, which, while it sounds laughable, actually threatens a lot of things at +2, being able to both take and dish out damage. Machop and Elekid are the best counters to Chansey at the moment.

Gold Berry: Gold Berry is only being suspected because of Chansey. Both it and Berry Juice restore health to max for most LC Pokemon, but for Chansey, only Gold Berry does this. This makes it even more of a defensive threat and allows it to set up more Curses. Provided that Chansey gets banned, there's no longer a reason to suspect Gold Berry, so it'll be unsuspected promptly afterwards. However, arguments can be made for the other side, whereas banning Gold Berry will make Chansey more balanced.

 

[Enigami]

Regarding suspects/bans:

+2 Scyther Hidden Power Bug vs. Houndour: 25-30 (104.1 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Scyther Hidden Power Ground vs. Houndour: 34-40 (141.6 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Scyther Return vs. Houndour: 24-29 (100 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^--Houndour is not a counter whatsoever.

+2 Scyther Hidden Power Bug vs. Elekid: 23-28 (95.8 - 116.6%) -- 94.9% chance to OHKO
+2 Scyther Hidden Power Ground vs. Elekid: 32-38 (133.3 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 Scyther Return vs. Elekid: 22-27 (91.6 - 112.5%) -- 74.4% chance to OHKO
^--Neither is Elekid.

+2 Scyther Hidden Power Bug vs. Porygon: 20-24 (76.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Pink Bow Scyther Double-Edge vs. Porygon: 23-28 (88.4 - 107.6%) -- 48.7% chance to OHKO
+4 Scyther Return vs. Porygon: 27-32 (103.8 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+4 Scyther Hidden Power Bug vs. Porygon: 28-34 (107.6 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^-- TWave Porygon is a sort of counter, but only if Scyther isn't Double-Edge + Bow or Miracle Berry which lets it set up to +4 on Porygon if Porygon switched in and potentially 6-0 a team.

HP Ground + Steel Wing hits everything for neutral damage, and HP Bug + Wing Attack is a dual STAB combo that covers everything but Magnemite. Return and Double Edge also are potentially decent coverage for 3 Attacks + SD Scyther, and Reversal can also be a nasty option if you can bait an opponent to bring you to 9 HP (34%) or less, as 80BP+ Fighting coverage at +2 makes Scyther absolutely terrifying. Absolutely broken and belongs in GSC LC 1P. Miracle Berry makes it easier to pull off SD in front of things that could scare it out with status. There may also be some close KOs that could be secured with type boosting items like +2 Bow Double-Edge vs. Porygon that haven't been looked into. It also has Thief to loot more recovery, Substitute to block status and give it additional protection from attacks, or even Safeguard for prolonged status protection / team support (say you're up against a full HP Bulbasaur at +0, do not have Miracle Berry, you can't OHKO and Sleep Clause isn't active, Safeguard can guarantee multi-turn protection regardless of what Bulba does unless it runs HP Rock and set up SDs in its face without fear of Sleep turns after setting it). And on top of all this, it has Baton Pass so even if it can't win in a situation, it can just pass to something that can. On paper, absolutely ban.

Chansey I can definitely see being broken, but I'm more willing to play with it than Scyther. Chansey's attack isn't nearly as bad at level 5 as it is at level 100. In standard level 100 tiering, Chansey's Attack is like 1/3rd of Snorlax, a strong Normal-type attacker in a tier where everything is bulky. In LC, Chansey's Attack is 55% of Doduo's, the strongest Normal-type attacker in a tier where everything is a lot squishier while being vastly bulkier on both sides and having Curse shore up its worse defense stat, while also having Gold Berry and Soft Boiled to help it set up and stay alive, and on top of everything only has 1 weakness. On paper, likely ban.

Regarding Gold Berry, if Chansey is broken with recovery that isn't broke on every other mon, then it's Chansey that is broken not Gold Berry. That'd be like banning Recover to 'balance' the GSC Ubers. No ban on principle.

 

[Enigami]

A few observations:

"One of the few good users of Spikes, can explode, and threatens a popular spinblocker in Gastly out with Hidden Power Ghost." A) Pineco is the ONLY LC user of Spikes unless we play with glitchmon RBY trades. GSC Spikes are super rare. B) Gastly is the ONLY LC Spinblocker. GSC Ghosts are even rarer.

Why are all the sets listed as Berry Juice when Gold Berry isn't banned yet? Also, might as well remove the abilities from the sets, they don't exist in Gen 2 and it just bloats them.

Is there even any purpose to Mint Berry sets in LC on a slow Pokemon when Gold Berry is already a full heal that doesn't cost you a turn and move slot? I can kinda see it on something fast that tends to get paralyzed for recovery+refresh, otherwise it's garbage.

Why is Nidoran-M running Blizzard? This isn't RBY, wouldn't Ice Beam be the move of choice due to accuracy?

Porygon is listed as not being able to learn Recover... should that be the case? RBY allows the use of glitches to obtain all level up moves / EVs, and it seems reasonable to me that the other GameBoy era generation could do the same.

Relevant unobtainable level up moves without glitches:
Magnemite: (nothing)
Porygon: Recover, Agility, Tri Attack
Staryu: Recover, Hydro Pump, Rapid Spin, Light Screen
Voltorb: Mirror Coat, Light Screen, Screech

Houndour looks like another possible suspect, checks to Sunny Day are pretty limited. Your reliable answers are pretty much Chansey, Ponyta and Rain Dance Staryu. Chansey obviously beats Sunny Day easily, but Beat Up could be a way to bait and remove Chansey (haven't ran calcs for it since I have to do so manually, but Houndoom atleast can brutalize Blissey and oneshot Chansey at level 100 with the right teammates). Ponyta is a great answer to Houndour, as it benefits from the opposing Houndour's Sunny Day, avoids the 2HKO from common coverage, and beats it 1v1 with any super effective coverage that isn't HP Water (even Low Kick), and if Chansey is in the tier, Ponyta will almost certainly be running Double Kick for the 2HKO on Chansey. Rain Dance Staryu is another solid answer to Sunny Day Houndour, as it can strip away its sun and Solar Beam coverage while simultaneously boosting its Water STAB, though being 2HKO'd by Crunch makes it easy for Houndour to pressure Staryu even if Recover is allowed and it finds room on a set.

 

[MeepBard]

A few observations:

"One of the few good users of Spikes, can explode, and threatens a popular spinblocker in Gastly out with Hidden Power Ghost." A) Pineco is the ONLY LC user of Spikes unless we play with glitchmon RBY trades. GSC Spikes are super rare. B) Gastly is the ONLY LC Spinblocker. GSC Ghosts are even rarer.

Why are all the sets listed as Berry Juice when Gold Berry isn't banned yet? Also, might as well remove the abilities from the sets, they don't exist in Gen 2 and it just bloats them.

Is there even any purpose to Mint Berry sets in LC on a slow Pokemon when Gold Berry is already a full heal that doesn't cost you a turn and move slot? I can kinda see it on something fast that tends to get paralyzed for recovery+refresh, otherwise it's garbage.

Why is Nidoran-M running Blizzard? This isn't RBY, wouldn't Ice Beam be the move of choice due to accuracy?

Porygon is listed as not being able to learn Recover... should that be the case? RBY allows the use of glitches to obtain all level up moves / EVs, and it seems reasonable to me that the other GameBoy era generation could do the same.

Relevant unobtainable level up moves without glitches:
Magnemite: (nothing)
Porygon: Recover, Agility, Tri Attack
Staryu: Recover, Hydro Pump, Rapid Spin, Light Screen
Voltorb: Mirror Coat, Light Screen, Screech

Houndour looks like another possible suspect, checks to Sunny Day are pretty limited. Your reliable answers are pretty much Chansey, Ponyta and Rain Dance Staryu. Chansey obviously beats Sunny Day easily, but Beat Up could be a way to bait and remove Chansey (haven't ran calcs for it since I have to do so manually, but Houndoom atleast can brutalize Blissey and oneshot Chansey at level 100 with the right teammates). Ponyta is a great answer to Houndour, as it benefits from the opposing Houndour's Sunny Day, avoids the 2HKO from common coverage, and beats it 1v1 with any super effective coverage that isn't HP Water (even Low Kick), and if Chansey is in the tier, Ponyta will almost certainly be running Double Kick for the 2HKO on Chansey. Rain Dance Staryu is another solid answer to Sunny Day Houndour, as it can strip away its sun and Solar Beam coverage while simultaneously boosting its Water STAB, though being 2HKO'd by Crunch makes it easy for Houndour to pressure Staryu even if Recover is allowed and it finds room on a set.

Hi! Good comments overall.

- Fixed.
- Berry Juice has a small, miniscule niche over Gold Berry - that being that if Chansey Thiefs Berry Juice, it will only heal half of its health, while Gold Berry gives a full health restore. Since they both function the same aside from that, I see no real point to run it unless Chansey definitively gets banned.
- Will fix later, at school atm. Not sure what’d go in that slot though.
- Nidoran-M does not learn Ice Beam in Gen 1, nor Gen 2.
- Glitches are only used in Gen 1 because of the small pool of Pokemon without tradebacks. Gen 2 introduced breeding level-up moves and egg moves. I see no reason to allow glitches here.
- Houndour is an interesting case. I’d go as far as to call it the Snorlax of GSC LC. It’s beaten by most Water-types, Elekid and Diglett, as well as opposing Houndour. It’s honestly really good, but not sure if banworthy good.

 

[MeepBard]

Some threats I did not mention:
Magby, Magnemite, Diglett, Staryu, Tentacool, Poliwag, Doduo, Drowzee

 

[Disaster Area]

Pomeg glitch is used in gen 3/4 and considered legitimate (not entirely uncontroversial, but generally accepted)

 

[MeepBard]

After testing, I have come to these conclusions alongside Enigami:

• Scyther will be banned, due to its high speed and absolutely insane attack. If it gets just one boost with Swords Dance, nothing beats it, forcing you to rely on a speed tie with opposing Scyther to stand a chance. With Pink Bow Double-Edge, it's able to destroy anything that might have survived. It can even fill an offensive Baton Pass set,, letting it pass boosts to allies.
• Chansey will remain unbanned until further discussion is held.
• Gold Berry will remain unbanned until further discussion is held.

 

[Ch01W0n5h1n]

Let´s see what else could possibly see use in LC (though I´m too tired to go too much into detail):
Chinchou (Nice Typing which is almost exclusively weak to stuff that it outspeeds anyways plus putting up very effective moves vs said Mons, solid stats overall)

Cubone (Due to it´s Item)

Teddiursa (Overall solid stats)

Poliwag (Fast Belly Drummer that can put something to sleep, main obstacle would be Elekid, has access to Growth too)

 

[MeepBard]

Let´s see what else could possibly see use in LC (though I´m too tired to go too much into detail):
Chinchou (Nice Typing which is almost exclusively weak to stuff that it outspeeds anyways plus putting up very effective moves vs said Mons, solid stats overall)

Cubone (Due to it´s Item)

Teddiursa (Overall solid stats)

Poliwag (Fast Belly Drummer that can put something to sleep, main obstacle would be Elekid, has access to Growth too)

Cubone is great in this tier, especially if baton passed an Agility. Teddiursa is meh to me, it's very strong but compared to other physical attackers, on paper all it has is its splendid coverage (perhaps testing should be done). Poliwag is amazing, it's super fun to use.