RBY OU Dig/Fly Clause

Dig and Fly are moves that are virtually unused in 1U, but in tiers outside of 1U, Dig and Fly start to actually find niche use. Dig allows Raticate and LC Rattata to force out ghosts that otherwise wall them and KO them in a last pokemon scenario (Most useful for Raticate 2U and below, where it outspeeds them and dodges their moves). Fly allows Raichu and LC Pikachu to deal decent damage to the grass types that otherwise wall it, allows Pidgeot to dodge status from sleeper bugs and grasses and scare them out, and is the only usable Flying STAB for Farfetch'd.

However, on cartridge, Dig and Fly have a glitch where being fully paralyzed on the second turn of the attack leaves the user invulnerable while regaining the ability to select attacks. The only way to get rid of invulnerability at that point is for the user to successfully use Dig or Fly or switch out, which the user likely has no need to do so. This has lead to it either being left unimplemented in simulators or banned.

One of my Pokemon related projects aims to improve RBY's simulator and make it as accurate to the cartridge mechanics as possible, and this would mean integrating the Dig and Fly glitches. While it is commonly decided to simply ban the two moves where the glitch is implemented due to nothing in 1U using it in any competitive set, banning the use of these moves affects Pokemon in lower tiers.

The way I see it, there are four options for handling Dig and Fly with the glitch mechanics implemented:
Leave it
Ban Dig/Fly
Clause that forces the use of Dig/Fly or the user to switch out when the user is invulnerable
Clause that prevents invulnerability from being retained via full paralysis, like Sleep and Freeze Clauses.


The pros of leaving it is that nothing has to be done, as they are rarely used except in niche sets (outside of perhaps Raticate, Farfetch'd and Rattata).
The cons of leaving it is that it creates unwelcome scenarios where the user can randomly become invulnerable and prevent the opponent from affecting it in any way, especially in tiers where the moves have viability.

The pros of banning Dig/Fly is that it is simple and does not affect 1U in any major way (Raticate loses a niche option vs. Gengar).
The cons of banning Dig/Fly is restricting moves and affecting tiers below 1U.

The pros of bring forced to use Dig/Fly or switch out when invulnerable is that it would be the closest to cartridge mechanics while preventing abuse.
The cons of bring forced to use Dig/Fly or switch out when invulnerable is that it is complex, forces the user to give up their advantage and does nothing to prevent a scenario where it is impossible to enforce due to the user being the last Pokemon and having no more PP for Dig/Fly (although would likely be an extremely rare scenario).

The pros of invulnerability being prevented is that it is moderately simple, would make Dig/Fly functionally the same as in most existing simulators, and allows use of the move and removes any potential for abuse.
The cons of invulnerability being prevented is that it is not accurate the the cartridge mechanics.

If Dig and Fly were to be accurate to cartridge mechanics, what option would you prefer?
(my own preference would be option 4, allowing use but preventing abuse of the moves)
 
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I advocated for Ban Dig/Fly on Showdown. I think leaving it would just make people complain down the line, despite the fact any strategy trying to trigger this is probably inviable in most matches, and Slowbro can still PP stall an invulnerable Slowbro.

I don't like the idea of forcing the player to actively compromise their otherwise advantage and turn that into a possible disadvantage. I'd sooner see FPs not happen in the invulnerable state or the invulnerability glitch fixed.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
I personally I am opposed to modifying game mechanics, and I'd rather implement some sort of rule to prevent situations like this arising. Also something so game-breaking should not be left available to be utilised. So that rules out the first and last option.

Forcing some play that removes the effects of the glitch is an intriguing option. However as has been stated it is very complex and really a ban of this nature, for something so minor, just doesn't seem worth it. I mean the closest we have is sleep/freeze clause- freeze clause I don't think should exist, while sleep is a much more significant threat to deal with, it plays a far greater role than dig/fly.

I'm also less than enthusiastic with the notion of increasing complexity for the sake of preserving a few non-problematic uses. It is just generally so unnecessary. So yeah, I think just ban dig/fly
 
Pretty much Option 4 would be the same as most simulators, where being fully paralyzed on the second turn of Dig/Fly does not ever grant invulnerability. The only difference would be a message similar to Freeze or Sleep clause showing that it was prevented, acknowledging the existence of the glitch while retaining use of both moves.

I kinda feel like those that are in favor of banning are looking purely in the context of RBY 1U. The attitude everyone seems to have regarding the moves seems to be to just get rid of it because they don't use it for 1U and don't care about its legitimate use in 2U and below.
 
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I kinda feel like those that are in favor of banning are looking purely in the context of RBY 1U. The attitude everyone seems to have regarding the moves seems to be to just get rid of it because they don't use it for 1U and don't care about its legitimate use in 2U and below.

Thing is you have to decide the bans for 1U first (going back to 1U when 2U exists is kind of messy).
 
What he's saying is, in tiers below 1U, these moves may have a legitimate niche, so when deciding our rules for 1U, we should take into consideration that Dig/Fly have competitive value - just not in 1U - and that means it has to be considered in a broader sense than considering it competitively irrelevant, because in the context of the whole of the RBY tiering - which the bans etc. would impact - they are competitively relevant moves.
 
yeah, but clearly you can't consider what you don't know. How can we objectively anticipate what could be competitively relevant in lower tiers? I feel this is a problem that needs to be solved by some criteria. It's the problem that is behind Smogon's decision to break transitivity.
 
Well I mean we just need to treat it as being a move that is potentially competitively relevant (from Enigami's analysis of movesets, it sounds realistic).

Imo in an ideal situation, we would clause it such that it is still wholly usable with accurate mecahnics, but if someone is made invlunerable by it then they have to give up their advantage [i.e. they are forced to either: use dig/fly again on the next turn, OR switch] if they are able to. If they are not able to (last mon with no dig/fly pp left) then either disqualify them OR permit it if it sufficiently passes the checks [i.e. the mon and PP count].
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
Well just wanna say real quick that if we allow it, anyone who happens to trigger the glitch should never be DQ'd if they can't remove its effects as that would be ridiculously unfair. That said, a situation like that is so unlikely that we can say it will never arise.

Also js my stance regarding a possible ban as opposed to a clause isn't neglecting its potential competitive viability, this is a principle I hold and applies to other things as well- for instance I believe baton pass should be straight-up banned in later generations rather than the complex clause we have now. This is despite the fact that one of my PO OU teams features NastyPass Celebi, a set which is far from broken and one which I enjoy using. As I said, I generally dislike the idea of implementing complex rules for the sake of preserving a handful of strategies. I mean there's obviously exceptions depending on how things stack up against each other but yeah.

I mean I wouldn't oppose a clause (I would oppose leaving it or changing mechanics) but it's not something I'm likely to support either

EDIT: I'm not seriously pushing for a bp ban, I was just using my stance as an example to demonstrate that my mindset is not solely 1U oriented
 
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I disagree about baton pass i mean in gen 3 it's a really important feature of OU and NU [or on here, 1U and XU as it currently stands] and it's all about available counterplay, player interactivity, etc. and even harshness to newer players [e.g. in some VGC formats, nintendo has banned Dark Void, to prevent a strategy of using scarf smeargle+a really hard hitter, e.g. M-Kanga [the combo with Kanga is caled Kang Artist] since even though it's a thing top player will all generally have counterplay for/be prepared for and able to beat, it really is cruel on newer players learning the game as it can be very difficult to beat when you're new to the game] I mean I personally think we should take things case by case, there's soooo much to consider clause by clause
 
2 and 3 are the only real options (1 is as bad as allowing Double Team, 4 breaks cartridge mechanics); 2 has the advantage of being much, much simpler than 3 and also not allowing either alternate win conditions or exploit uses (5 Exploders + Digger with recovery). I say ban Dig and Fly. The removal of legit uses for them isn't great, but the intricacies of 3 are worse IMO.
 

Mirabel_

Member
Because we expect no draws from our matches, this is a game-breaking bug: the kind of thing that would be patched out as soon as possible in any competitive videogame that had it, totally regardless of balancing concerns such as Sleep and Freeze. Treating it as if it has been left alone, I am in favor of Option 4, being a surgical Clause Mod that removes this behavior by outright preventing full paralysis during the Dig/Fly setup phase, prioritizing maximum competitive depth over total preservation of cartridge mechanics. I venture to believe it is more justified than the Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause Mods. Although they do improve the competitive potential of the game substantially more than this change would, they do not address mechanics that entirely preclude decisive match results. We didn't add the desync bugs for a similar reason, and this is the same thing at a different layer, right?

The best alternative to that kind of clause mod in my eyes is Option 1, to leave it alone entirely and introduce draw-forcing to RBY, as it is the prevailing issue in the competitive game for which the Elo system was developed. The result is: it ceases to be a game-breaking bug because the objective of the game is augmented. I prefer it to the other two changes because it at least accomplishes one of these simulators' objectives in an ideal way. The reason I don't favor this is not because RBY OU and even UU are established and beloved metagames, but because I feel the community has broken suit a very long time ago in terms of how severely they're willing to mod this game to add competitive depth to RBY OU, while still maintaining a justified air of purity. By my interpretation Option 4 is closest to the collective ideals that built the current ruleset and programmed these simulators.

Basically, Option 4 or Option 1 should be implemented or at least be the first options suspect tested.
 

Ortheore

Emeritus
2 1 3 3 3 1 2 2
I strongly disagree with the above post

Firstly I don't see how draw-forcing solves anything. It is not in any way fair given that players have little control over when they activate the glitch and that it could happen in any situation. For instance if a player is about to 6-0 another and either of them activates the glitch, forcing them to draw is silly and bound to result in people upset, since it's costing a player an earned win. Furthermore our tour formats aren't well suited for draws since it basically means a rematch, which can potentially cause issues with scheduling. There isn't much leeway to adapt our tour formats either, since the consensus is that stuff like swiss and round robin formats run into trouble with activity when you expand to a larger pool of players.

Secondly I personally object to referring to using sleep and freeze clause as precedent. Freeze clause I believe to be an unnecessary deviation from cart mechanics, while sleep clause ought to be modified in some way to not violate cart mechanics. Desync glitches are an interesting case, one I'm not sure how to approach. It'd be worth a try I guess, the only issue being that from a technical standpoint I imagine it'd be a nightmare.

Lastly the purpose of simulators is not to develop competitive environments. It is to replicate cartridge mechanics as accurately as possible while being more convenient to use than the actual games. The competitive side of things arises from communities such as ourselves and smogon, with the rulesets we implement. This automatically excludes the idea of modding the glitch out. Furthermore I question both whether including these moves truly increases depth, and even if they do, whether it's relevant- would we really miss these moves? Does the game not already provide a great degree of depth?

Another thing to consider is that most of this stuff is inherited from long in the distant past, and has become ingrained tradition, something that would require an immense amount of inertia to change. I disagree with the current implementations of freeze and sleep clause but there's only so much I can do about it, especially without affecting the existing player base. So I personally feel that the maintenance of the status quo should not be viewed as support
 
Okay, after reviewing Dig/Fly in more depth, I'd have to throw my lot in with Option 2. While in theory they have competitive use, in practice I'm not sure anything outside of Raticate would actually run them.

The Pokemon that have a reason to use Fly are Aerodactyl, Farfetch'd, Pidgeot and Raichu. However, while it would help dodge status while scaring out Grass and Bug-types, Aerodactyl and Pidgeot would prefer to run Sky Attack for its greater power, Farfetch'd does just as much damage with Slash, and Raichu has several better options for its moveslots.

The Pokemon that have a reason to use Dig are Alakazam, Arcanine, Ninetales, Parasect, Raticate and Slowbro. Alakazam and Slowbro could make hilarious use of it in situations where they outspeed a boomer, but the only realistic way they'd run Dig is in a meta where there is no moveslot limitations. Arcanine and Ninetales pretty much have 2 targets for Dig, which is Haunter and other Fire-types, and they have other options they'd probably prefer to run as they can still get past those targets without Dig. Parasect isn't outspeeding anything threatened by Dig, isn't even considered for 2U where Haunter is, and it would only be relevant if Gastly was a common threat or if Fire- and Poison-types were commonly paralyzed in its prime tier.

Raticate looks like its the only major benefactor from Dig/Fly, as if I remember right most Pokemon in 2U are KO'd by Super Fang + Hyper Beam/Bubble Beam and Dig breaks Haunter to make Raticate an unwallable wallbreaker, however I don't think its worth bending rules mostly for the benefit of a single Pokemon.
 
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For now I think we should stick with option 2 also, echoing above arguements. Nevertheless, I think in due course if we can implement sensible fix to sleep clause on our simulators, we should review this issue, as at that point, option 3 would probably be implementable.

Also Mirabel_ w.r.t.
Lastly the purpose of simulators is not to develop competitive environments. It is to replicate cartridge mechanics as accurately as possible while being more convenient to use than the actual games
If you do want to try that approach at RBY, try the Violet mod. Our main meta seeks to be replicatable on cartridge however.

Another thing to consider is that most of this stuff is inherited from long in the distant past, and has become ingrained tradition, something that would require an immense amount of inertia to change. I disagree with the current implementations of freeze and sleep clause but there's only so much I can do about it, especially without affecting the existing player base. So I personally feel that the maintenance of the status quo should not be viewed as support
Agreeing with some things, but commenting that the dig/fly status quo is very recent [until late 2014 or maybe early 2015, PO did option 4, not sure what it currently does. Once RBY was more or less OK on PS, Dig/Fly was in state of option 1 due to the issue not yet being discussed on Smogon; now it is currently option 2 iirc?] and freeze clause discussion should be happening on here some time sooner rather than later (I know there's support for its removal)
 

Mirabel_

Member
If clause mods are indeed something we're trying to phase out and not considered forgiveably beneficial, then I concur that there's little reason for option 4.

Draws do not normally force regames except in Bo1 brackets a la Showdown. RR and swiss/mcmahon amply facilitate them as do larger sets. And I contest that the situation in which this bug arises is something that either player can strive towards or to avoid, albeit ignoring the ingrained meta for an introduced, but cartridge-exact, alternate objective. If you're trying to preserve the old meta above other objectives then Option 2 and 3 are clear favorites over Option 1. I admit to caring more about the cartridge mechanics and potential for an increase in depth than the sanctity of the current meta.

I can name a precedent for each option in a bugged competive game or videogame, so it depends on just how many objectives we're trying to juggle in this change. Option 2 seems to offend the fewest of those myriad stances, although I don't think it follows any one of them well, except adherence to status quo.
 
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Option 2 seems to offend the fewest of those myriad stances, although I don't think it follows any one of them well, except adherence to status quo.

1), 2), and 3) satisfy "can be implemented on cartridge".

2), 3), and 4) satisfy "no random instawins".

1), 2), and 4) satisfy "no fiddly stuff".

Those are the three I consider important (in that order), and I think 2) hits all of them well.

I suppose the one that 2) doesn't satisfy is "no overbroad bans", but I'm not sure that the competitive viability of Dig and Fly for coverage can be separated from their lolinstawin potential in the base case (i.e. 1)) - it's only once you start messing with stuff (i.e. in 3) and 4)) that they can be distinguished.

Freeze Clause and Sleep Clause I don't accept as precedent for ignoring "can be implemented on cartridge" because I'm vocally opposed to Freeze Clause in cartridge metagames (I left Smogon over it) and I've always said Sleep Clause should be done as a restriction rather than as a mod (stopping you from choosing sleep moves when something's already asleep, instead of allowing the choice and then negating the effect; if you only have one Pokemon left and its only remaining PP are of sleep moves then just call it a loss since it's near-impossible to win from that position anyway).
 
It's been 9 months since this conversation started, and since then we've defined more and more lowers tiers (when this conversation started, it was all speculative), so I think it's worth necroposting here to drum up the conversation again.

When I've been teambuilding in the lower tiers, it has bummed me out that I've had to pass on Pokemon I would love to use because I can't take advantage of an important move they might need to be viable. Folks who know me know I would advocate first and foremost for simply programming it out (Option 4). However, I know that's an unpopular opinion. So here I would advocate for revisiting Option 3 - forcing the user to re-use Dig/Fly or switch out if the glitch HAPPENS to activate.

If you activate the glitch and have to re-use Dig/Fly, that's not a huge deal. So many moves have problematic RBY side effects - Hyper Beam recharge, guaranteed Sleep after Hyper Beam, or the speed-drop-stacking status moves - and we play around them. Why can't we play around this? If you activate the glitch that guarantees sleep hits - even if the opp is paralyzed - during a Hyper Beam recharge turn, that's super messed up ... it's definitely an unintentional glitch ... but you got a sweet advantage, and we roll with it. If you activate the Dig/Fly glitch, you were invulnerable for a turn, and that gives you a sweet advantage, and we can roll with it by making you use the move again. Simply re-using the same move doesn't put you at TOO much a disadvantage as a player in the match (switching out is probably the worse option available to you, but it all depends). I think it's no worse, really, than the kind of disadvantage you find yourself in when your paralyzed Pokemon gets extra slow because your opponent used a status move. These glitches are weird. They can put you in a bad spot, sure. But they can put you in a good spot. And we roll with them either way.

The only place where this gets tricky is if you are on your last Pokemon, and you have run out of Dig/Fly PP so you can't undo it (Dig is 16 PP, Fly 24). I would treat that similarly to a last-mon boom: if your opponent has more Pokemon left, you lose. If you're each on your last, you draw. That situation is so, so, so unlikely. Why can't we play-test it that way for a while and if for some crazy reason it gets problematic (people somehow lose tournament matches because of it often enough) we can revisit?

EDITED TO ADD: Programming this in wouldn't be too hard, it's not dissimilar to the coding in later gens when you use a Choice item (your other moves are greyed out). But you don't HAVE to code it in - it can just be a gentleman's agreement. Though that could get dicey.

TL;DR: Dig/Fly are fun moves, especially in the now-defined lower tiers. I vote just programming out the glitch, but I know that's unpopular. Let's at least TRY Option 3 because the effects of that are no weirder than other acknowledged RBY glitches that we're happy to play around. If the end-game scenario gets dicey, we can revisit.
 
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