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RBY 2U-L (Under1U) Council Vote Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Tiers' started by Disaster Area, Dec 7, 2015.

  1. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    The council have decided that everything above C rank is going to be RBY 2U, everything below will be RBY 3U, and the council will vote on those Pokémon in C rank. If you're not in the council, this is your chance to have your say. What Pokémon in C rank do you think should be 2U? The council will look at your opinions and arguements, and use that to decide what should be a part of the tier. Essentially, if a Pokémon is a good enough choice in the metagame, then it should be a part of the tier, and if it isn't then it shouldn't be. A look at our other tiers should give a general sense of where this boundary should be. This process isn't perfectly precise or objective, but you guys get to have a say and the end result functions pretty nicely, so this is how we do things here.

    These are the Pokémon the council will be voting on:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The council will roughly state their voting intentions in this thread, and allow for discussion for roughly a week, then the thread will be locked and votes will be cast in a separate thread, by the council.


    Please focus discussion on 2U - discussion of how 3U is affected is not for this thread. The effect on the 3U metagame is not to be considered in voting on a Pokémon's position in 3U.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  2. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Venusaur: no doubt it can go to 3U (Victreebel etc)
    Vaporeon:it's not outclassed due to defenses, but i'd vote for 3U
    Sandslash: there are better ground types and better SDancers: 3U
    Raticate: we overlooked it in 2U; it could be discussed but goes down imo
    Golduck: low bulk, Poliwrath has a better moveset too (and it still has a bad time with Gyarados)
    Electabuzz is outclassed (Raichu) and goes down
    Clefairy can be discussed, but it goes down imo, as Hypno and Kangaskhan do its two jobs way better.
    Charizard: I think it's the best fire type, so it looks the most arguable to me. I'd put it in 3U.

    TL;DR: everything to 3U.
     
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    ok, random thoughts.

    The only things I am decided on are Clefable and Slash- Clef I consider 2U, Slash definitely isn't (edit: Buzz also drops).

    Then I'm looking at the pokemon that are blatantly outclassed by other pokemon- Buzz, Venu, Vap and Rat. Of those, Buzz sticks out like a sore thumb in that I just don't think it's very good in the 2U meta. Raichu exists, but also conceding opportunities to Don is just terrible. So I'm leaning towards dropping Buzz. That leaves Rat, Vap and Venu. Vap stands out to me as one that I'm just not sure of. I simply don't have enough experience with it post-MoltCuno to really say one way or the other. Unfortunately, as a pivot it's not really much better than Gyara, while Gyara is a lot more threatening- Gyara's capable of wearing down walls easily where Vap is capable of no such things. So I guess I'm tentatively leaning towards dropping Vap.

    Venu and Rat I feel are good pokemon but they just don't manage to distinguish themselves enough, particularly in the case of Venu. Venu has only slightly better bulk and speed and this isn't enough to justify using it over Bel, so I'm leaning slightly towards dropping Venu. Rat does a slightly better job of distinguishing itself with SFang. Its issues are its abysmal bulk, not-quite-good-enough speed tier and the fact that it's pretty weak outside SFang. I'm actually leaning slightly towards letting Rat stay in 2u. Super Fang is awesome and Normal STAB is actually good enough to carry it imo

    Golduck I'm really undecided on
    . I feel like it has a lot of potential, but in practice it hasn't left an impression one way or another. If nothing happens to change my mind I'll probably vote for it to drop.

    Zard I'm tempted to vote 2u. Zard is funny in that it isn't particularly good, but I feel it has a distinctive niche and that it's capable enough at filling that niche to be worthy of a spot in 2U.

    TL;DR: Zard, Rat and Clef I'm leaning 2U, the rest drop

    As you can see, I'm being super indecisive here, I'm unsure on a lot of pokemon. I'd really love for some discussion to sway my mind one way or the other

    EDIT 2: I might as well say I'm decided on Buzz
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  4. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    I can agree on about everything with you, but let's get real: how many times would you use Charizard, Clefable and Raticate in a tournament team? That's the final question, as those mons have niches and can win games, but they are expected to have low usages if we play the tier enough.
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    I would definitely use them occasionally, and I don't feel that using them is an enormous stretch. If you compare them with something like Cuno in 1U (which I've been using a lot lately), Cuno has often felt like I was deliberately handicapping my team for the sake of being different- it's been tough finding scenarios in which its position is justified. I get no such feeling using Zard/Clef/Rat. Instead they feel more in line with Cloy/Dnite- things that you aren't going to see very often, but when they do appear they are capable at fulfilling their roles. Certainly Zard and Clef at the very least aren't outclassed by anything, while Rat plays differently enough to the normals to be worth using.
     
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  6. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Yeah: I'm definitely interested in Charizard, as it fulfills its role, but I don't see Raticate remaining in 2U having to compete with Kangaskhan, Persian and Dodrio (and even Clefable to some lesser extent: Clefable breaks Kadabra and somehow is a physical).

    Clefable is a jack of all trades but master of none, and the fact that it's slow+no typing makes is a subpar choice: it's not a sweeper and it lacks the Psychic resistance/special bulk that Kadabra has to be a pivot (Kadabra can switch into Raichu and Haunter).
    Kadabra has Recover, Hypno has Rest... what about Clefable?

    In the end, discussion #1 Charizard, #2 Clefable, #3 Raticate, but we're really extending it given that B ranked pokemon like Poliwrath and Tentacruel have their struggles themselves.
     
  7. Heroic Troller

    Heroic Troller From Marcoasd's DNA Member

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    [​IMG]3U Big problems vs Gyarados, Rhydon..
    [​IMG]Discuss
    [​IMG]3U Outclassed by Raichu, ~Surf~
    [​IMG]3U Outclassed by Poliwrath, moveset (Hypnosis) and bulkyness
    [​IMG]3U Totally outclassed by Kanga, ok ok faster and Super Fang but... More bulkyness, attack, still usable when par... Stronger HB, EQ and still good speed make Kanga absolutely better
    [​IMG]3U Outclassed by Rhydon (better ground) and Pinsir-Kingler (Sdancers)
    [​IMG]3U Outclassed by Gyarados, ground immunity, Tbolt, speed, stronger HB...
    [​IMG]3U Outclassed by Victreebel, speed and atks
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
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  8. Mirabel_

    Mirabel_ Member

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    I haven't seen enough Clefable (in 2U) to warrant an opinion on it.

    Golduck and Electabuzz I have, and Golduck is definitely not 2U-capable except as a surprise.

    Electabuzz - discuss. Doesn't measure up to Raichu without some serious luck, and doesn't work too well alongside Raichu either. I think it's the best pick listed though, so it's the first one I'd discuss.

    Sandslash beats its entire classification 1v1 but since this tier is full of special sweepers with status moves it doesn't add up to getting picked, ever, over Rhydon or a faster dancer. Being slower than Hypno hurts a lot too.

    Basically all mons to 3U, Discuss Clefable and Electabuzz.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  9. tr0mb0ner

    tr0mb0ner Member

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    Charizard 3U: As a mixed attacker, it is outclassed by Gyrados and it is outclassed as an sword dancer by other mons.

    Clefable 3U: Clefable is a mon that is capable of fulfilling many roles and has the option to have a lot of varying move sets. It is just outclased by Hypno in the roles that Clefable is looking to fill in.

    Electabuzz 3U: Only thing it has going for it in 2U is having psychic, besides that outclassed by raichu

    Golduck 3U: Golduck can't hang in 2U with mons such as V-Bell, Raichu, etc being omnipresent

    Ratticate ?: The rat is a weird one, I don't think it's necessarily out classed by another mon, just because there's nothing really else like it. I can see it being a niche lead that just super fangs then eats sleep, besides that I don't see any other way to make it viable, would work the same in 2U or 3U

    Sandslash 3U: Its only gimmick being that it beats rhydon 1v1, which isnt even that great in 2u because there are many threats that can take out rhydon.

    Vaporeon 3U: Vape just doesn't pack enough of a punch to hang in 2U, outclassed by gyrados, and has problems with omnipresent mons (Raichu, V-Bell)

    Venusaur 3U: Outclassed by V-Bell
     
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  10. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    You guys need to discuss more, and play some games. If you put some sample teams on the forum, I'm happy to play some test games.

    People seem to be more in the mind that this is not 3U worthy; Ortheore, why do you think it's worthy of 2U? Troller says it's worth discussing.
    Similarly with clefable, I could ask the same question, though you've elaborated here. Why do other people not think it's good enough? How well does it perform in matches? Is it very difficult to put it onto a team?
    If you're undecided, play some test games!
    How well does it perform in matches? etc.

    Also just remember, you only get one vote, so this is the time to play lots of test matches, and discuss with people in the thread, to make sure you don't regret your vote.

    I think that not everything will need to be discussed thoroughly, just so long as the cases that are a bit borderline really get proper scrutiny. Right now, Clefable looks about even in terms of how the council - those who've posted - feel about it.

    Enigami and Golden Gyarados should make at least a post saying what they are thinking about voting.
     
  11. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    Things I'm pretty set on:

    Clefable: 3U - Every time I've used it, it was disappointing and felt a lot like a crappy Hypno.
    Electabuzz: 3U - Between Raichu's competition and Rhydon's presence, I just don't think Electabuzz makes the cut in 2U.
    Sandslash: 3U - Really slow for a swords dancer in 2U, I don't see it accomplishing more than other Pokemon in the tier without a lot of paralysis support.
    Vaporeon: 3U - Without the legendary birds, I feel like Vaporeon just doesn't offer enough to compete with the other Waters.
    Venusaur: 3U - It gets some extra defense, speed and Leech Seed, but those are all situational. It lacks Wrap, Stun Spore, has less Attack and its speed doesn't help much. I can't see Venusaur ever being picked over Victreebel more than Rhydon is over Golem in 1U, and Rhydon got dropped from there.

    Undecided, want to test these before voting:

    Charizard: Leaning 3U. I feel like if I want a mixed attacker, I'm wanting Gyarados. If I want a SD/partial trapping/also sorta mixed attacker, I'm wanting Victreebel or Tentacruel.
    Golduck: Leaning 3U. Lack of Hypnosis, lesser physical bulk and smaller movepool compared to Poliwrath hurt, but its higher Speed and lack of Psychic weakness might be valuable.
    Raticate: Slightly leaning 3U. Super Fang is nasty and outspeeding Kangaskhan is good, but being walled by Haunter (unless Dig is available), lacking bulk, having heavy competition from other Normals and falling short of 100 base speed seems a bit iffy to me.
     
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  12. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    ok so venu vap buzz and slash are all 3u or 3a or w/e

    I'll need more testing on Zard, Rat and Duck. That'll probably have to wait a bit, I'm busy atm and I'm going away for a few days (get back monday)

    I guess I need to defend Clef for 2U. I guess the best way to describe it is as the bastard lovechild of Kangaskhan and Hypno. I think Enigami's comparison to Hypno is relatively accurate because in many ways it accomplishes the same things. It's relatively bulky, with no glaring weaknesses, has access to status (mostly Twave) and this allows it to tank hits, retaliate and spread status. The difference is in the typing, and it is a big deal imo. Being a normal type attacker with mixed coverage it poses a substantially different offensive threat to Hypno and its mono-Psychic coverage. Being able to make use of Body Slam obviously gives it a different secondary effect which changes dynamics a bit, while it can also run Blizzard, which 2HKOs Don (Hyp can only 3HKO). The biggest selling point is STAB HBeam though, as it means Clef can pack a sizable amount of power in a way that Hypno can't. As in OU, there are generally few answers for normal attackers, none of which are able to do so consistently over the course of a match. So while Clef may not pack the power of the other normals in the tier, it still is a significant threat, while supporting the team in a manner similar to Hypno
     
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  13. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    It lets Haunter in easily. Also it has a slight 4MSS (I think best moveset is Blizzard/Tbolt/TWave/Hyper Beam, while Body Slam is the specific move for Kadabra, and Hyper Beam is dangerous with Kangaskhan around).
    Given that it's a defensive pokemon, i'd pick the Psychic typing over Normal all day. It has the same struggle that Vaporeon has, with the difference that TWave and STAB normal moves hide it (well, Vaporeon lasts really long and it's the best counter for Rhydon- after Wrath- among competitive pokemon in the tier).

    TWave makes it good and it can go basically 1 for 1 (revenge kills at worst), though, resulting in a tough call. I don't see why we shouldn't put an eye on the lower tier in cases like this.
     
  14. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    Letting Haunter in isn't that big a deal tho, since it's far from a massive threat. The moveset I've been using is Slam/Beam/Blizz/TWave. And I wouldn't just label it a defensive pokemon since it does pose some offensive threat. The comparison to Vap is poor for reasons you mention- it gets TWave and normal STAB. TWave means it actually does something for the team, while normal STAB means it is capable of pulling its weight offensively rather than getting walled like Vap

    Also lower tiers are unimportant to 2U, that's how the system works, otherwise it opens the potential for things to devolve into a mess of theorymon
     
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  15. marcoasd

    marcoasd P.I.P. PLAY IN PEACE Host Emeritus

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    Letting Haunter in is boring in case you don't have a Kadabra.
    About Clefable's potential, I mean it's not going to get multiple kills: it's slow and doesn't hit hard. Vaporeon can get the same result in case its Body Slams cause paralysis. Clefable obviously has a better movepool and it's under discussion for that reason... I don't think it's enough to earn it a solid position; you say the opposite and this looks the end of the discussion: we need to vote following your system.

    I'm not saying lower tiers are an important criteria: I'm asking for more attention, and looking for a better tiebreaker than letting 4-5 people voting depending on how they feel at the moment, on a matter we expressed ourselves on with "I don't know".
    Last time this happened you put Jolteon in OU and it worked pretty well for 2U*, I've got to give it to you. I'm not sure about this time.

    *I mean we would've been happy by banning it, given that its usage in OU fell to the point we would vote differently, today, allowing it to 2U.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  16. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Little Ball of Furr and Power Member

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    May I advise then that if you feel you don't know, vote No. That'd lead to potentially having Clefable in 3U and similarly with other Pokémon in other metas, should enough people be unsure of course. Ideally though, people should be persuaded before voting, which is of course the purpose of this thread. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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  17. tr0mb0ner

    tr0mb0ner Member

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    A lot of people seem to be unsure of golducks spot, I have played quite a bit of 2u games with golduck as well as smogons BL, only seem to have some luck with it as a last mon to sweep with. with the tier not having a lot of options on having walls that spread status it makes the amnesia set up less effective, also leave blade just ruins it as well as it getting raichu'd (although with 2 amnesias up it can handle it), it seem'd just playing with duck in 2u seem'd more of a handicap to my team then a help over another mon like gyrados.
     
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  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    @Golden Gyarados you need to post asap otherwise we may end up putting someone else on the council!

    I had a few games with Troller and I've largely made up my mind on various pokemon. Zard is definitely 3U, Golduck can drop as well, there are enough checks to it that it has a tough time functioning, though it can definitely be a cool pick for a team

    Rat is one I'm sticking to my guns on, it's a niche option no doubt, but its sheer wallbreaking power is awesome and enough to make it stand out
     
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  19. Ortheore

    Ortheore Host Emeritus

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    After a slight delay @Golden Gyarados has opted to step down from their position. It's unfortunate they weren't able to contribute more, but what can you do when irl happens?

    Replacing him is @tr0mb0ner who has made some good contributions to this thread and has posted a respectable record in the 2U tournament.

    With that sorted, it's time to ask a question- is everyone ready to vote?

    I've decided what my vote will look like, how is everyone else sitting? @marcoasd @Enigami @Troller @tr0mb0ner ? And for anyone who is not on the council, are there any things you think should be addressed before we vote?
     
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  20. Enigami

    Enigami Moderator

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    I'm almost ready. I know what my vote will be for everything but Raticate, so I'd like to test it more before I vote on it. I'll try and get that done ASAP so I'm fully ready to go.
     
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